Diablo® III

Suvivability Guide: Why Life Pool Hoarding is BAD!

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So I have been playing for a very long time on softcore and recently have been doing a bunch on hardcore, where survivability becomes paramount (of course). I ran across someone in my clan the other day, and have actually ran across many people of a similar mindset so I decided to write it all down here so it could actually help someone.

Anyway, he could not understand why I am able to do 1 level of difficulty higher than him when my toughness number was about 40% of what his was. So we joined a game together and started killing some things and he began to wonder why my life pool was barely moving as I took damage, while his would drain a little bit, but not significantly to put him in danger.

The thing to remember is that your character survivability is a function of all 3 things, Damage, Toughness, and Healing.

Also, we are assuming no other damage reduction for simplicity. we are only considering healing, life, armor, and all resist.

Lesson 1: Kill Quickly
The faster you kill, the less damage you take, and thus the less you have to heal. This is pretty self explanatory, and not specifically the aim of this thread.

Lesson 2: Life is strengthened by All Resist and Armor
What is better?
    1. 5,000,000 Toughness with a 500,000 life pool
    2. 5,000,000 Toughness with a 200,000 life pool
    3. Doesn't matter, 5,000,000 toughness is 5,000,000 toughness


The answer, every time, is option 2. If you keep your toughness constant while simultaneously lowering your life, it means each life point becomes stronger which makes your healing more potent.

Let's do some math and assume we heal for 20,000 life per second and we are fighting monsters while taking 500,000 damage per second... How long will your character last?

1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
The enemy does 500,000 damage per second which is 1/10 of your toughness, so that means each second, those monsters are hitting you for 50,000 life. we are healing at 20,000 life per second, so we are at a net loss of 30,000 life per second.
In this case, we will survive for 16.67 seconds.
not too bad huh?

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Again, same as above... the enemies damage us for 500,000 damage which is 1/10 of our toughness... That means these monsters are hitting us for 20,000 life per second. But we are also healing for 20,000 life per second. That means we are at a net change of 0 life per second.
In this case, we will NEVER die!

3. 8,000,000 Toughness with 800,000 life pool (which is about what my clan-mate had)
Again, 500,000 damage which is 1/16 of our toughness, so the monsters are hitting for 50,000 damage. we end up in the same scenario as number 1 where we eventually die, but it takes a lot longer. Losing 30,000 health per second with 800,000 health.
In this case, we will survive for 26.67 seconds.

Lesson 3: Healing is more potent when stacking armor and All Resist
we saw above how someone with 3 million more toughness will eventually die when stacked next to someone whose toughness is more seated in all resist and armor. The reason is each point of life has a toughness value associated with it when taking into account all of the other multipliers.

1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
Each life point here accounts for 10 toughness, so when we have 20,000 healing per second, we are really only regenerating 200,000 toughness per second.

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Each life point here accounts for 25 toughness, so when we have 20,000 healing per seconds, are are actually regenerating 500,000 toughness per second

3. 8,000,000 Toughness with 800,000 life pool (which is about what my clan-mate had)
Each life point accounts for 10 toughness so again, we are only regenerating 200,000 toughness per second.

Conclusion
Suvivability is a combination of killing speed and toughness and healing. for the defensive aspect, the more you stack Armor, All resist and damage reduction modifiers, the more potent your healing becomes so you can survive much longer even with a smaller toughness number. This leads to people witnessing a sense of "false toughness" when stacking life. In actuality, it isn't "false toughness," but just diluted healing
+1
its insanely boring passively outhealing everything. I'll stick with dodging ground affixes and grabbing globes and maybe dying for it. thanks for the write up
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Thanks for telling us what we knew about the game since 2012. Despite my tone. I really mean it for the sake of new players.

Also, if you haven't tried it yet I'd change out your mystical ally for epiphany. epiphany is simply amazing. Makes us immune to CC, we can teleport around if were in trouble. Also boosts our survivability quite substantially on hardcore as well as dps. Inner Fire for DPS, desert shroud for mitigation. If situation gets really dire you can spam mantra of healing while epiphany is up.(especially nice in group play if you want to save allies who are near death)
Edited by StRaItJaCkEt#1704 on 4/18/2014 10:48 AM PDT
04/18/2014 10:41 AMPosted by theussr
its insanely boring passively outhealing everything. I'll stick with dodging ground affixes and grabbing globes and maybe dying for it. thanks for the write up

I was just illustrating a point.
If you are truly as overpowered to never be dying, you should absolutely bump it to a higher difficulty. ;)

Thanks for telling us what we knew about the game since 2012.I really mean it for the sake of new players.

Also, if you haven't tried it yet I'd change out your mystical ally for epiphany. epiphany is simply amazing. Also boosts our survivability quite substantially on hardcore.

You and I may have know this from the start, but many people still do not. Go into some public games or some games with new players in your clan... You will see what I mean.
Thank you, I will try that ;) I went with mystical ally for the extra 10% constant damage buff. Only problem is I found a bunch of lightning equipment. some I am still re-rolling before it is an upgrade... SO I kinda need lightning skills.
Edited by Gazly#1514 on 4/18/2014 10:47 AM PDT
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[I went with mystical ally for the extra 10% constant damage buff. Only problem is I found a bunch of lightning equipment. some I am still re-rolling before it is an upgrade... SO I kinda need lightning skills.


I was doing the same thing, but once my DPS seemed fairly good. I found epiphany to be a lot more useful, and I'd have a hard time turning back now even for the 10% boost.
Edited by StRaItJaCkEt#1704 on 4/18/2014 10:49 AM PDT
04/18/2014 10:49 AMPosted by StRaItJaCkEt
[I went with mystical ally for the extra 10% constant damage buff. Only problem is I found a bunch of lightning equipment. some I am still re-rolling before it is an upgrade... SO I kinda need lightning skills.


I was doing the same thing, but once my DPS seemed fairly good. I found epiphany to be a lot more useful, and I'd have a hard time turning back now even for the 10% boost.


I will have to try it... I haven't played too much with the monk, but he seemed to be one of the most balanced classes from what I did test out with him, which is why I chose him for my HC character.
Most of my play is on my SC wizard and SC demon hunter... Both need help in the elemental skills buff on their equipment.

But yeah, Definitely thanks for the tip. I will surely try it out.
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A very valid point --- until you use Unity ring.

Unity + high health = made of win.
While what you said in your post is technically true, it does not necessarily translate the same way in actual practice. The problem is that there isn't enough itemization slots in the 4/2 system to effectively balance all 3 areas (damage, toughness, healing). The problem is, is that in higher difficulties, monsters are going to be doing a lot more than 500k dps, and a lot more damage than what you can possibly negate through life regen and life on hit. That 20k health per second is not going to come even close to saving you in the higher levels of torment, and there isn't enough itemization opportunity to raise it to a level that it can. It is simply more effective to stack toughness in favor of healing and rely on potions and health globes for your healing instead of a passive regeneration or life on hit.
Great post.

Once healing is more effective then the less of it you need too.

Also to the person who made the comment about knowing this since 2012, back then we could get items that had %life on hit which meant more life = more healing. Now since everything is +life on hit or +life on kill this applies even more so.

Taking away leech life made life not as useful.

I would also like to add that 1 Vitality = 80 life I believe, can anyone confirm?
This is partly true, yes. Obviously however, you can't keep your toughness the same and lose life. Vitatlity (as it should be) is FAR more effective a stat for increasing toughness than any other.

You also ignore things that heal a % of life rather than a flat amount. Things like the DH's Brooding, or health potions, or anything who's flat amount can heal over your max health, like the Witch Doctor's sacrifice heal rune.

A simple rule of thumb is this, if you find yourself at max health frequently throughout a battle, lose allres for more vitality. If you find yourself slowly losing health until you die, never managing to get back to full, and in no risk of dying quickly (and you have a reasonable amount of healing, this is important as many people DO NOT have much at all and depend entirely on potions and health globes), trade vitality for all res.

As for armor, a +armor roll on an item is almost never worth it. Most pieces of equipment cap around a +armor roll of 300 or so, whereas AR caps over 80. 80 AR is over twice as much toughness as 300 armor given that your armor and AR values are currently equalish. Even on a wizard with insane AR because of the amount of int he has, this will never be a favorable trade, and you're better off getting LoH or LpS if you can't get AR on that piece of gear.
Question:

So if 1 Vitality = 80
Then 500 Vitality = 40,000 (Most items have max of 500)

That means that I would have to have 266,666 Life before 15% life (Max % life on most items) would be the same amount of life added as 500 Vitality.

Is the above correct?
04/18/2014 11:30 AMPosted by flyingbunnys
Question:

So if 1 Vitality = 80
Then 500 Vitality = 40,000 (Most items have max of 500)

That means that I would have to have 266,666 Life before 15% life (Max % life on most items) would be the same amount of life added as 500 Vitality.

Is the above correct?


Yeas... but you would also have to do this without any other %life...
That 266,666 life would have to come 100% from Vitality stat
Senior Technical Game Designer
Posts: 47
Thanks for spreading awareness! Great write-up.

Damage, Toughness and Healing are all designed to be rough guides to try and help players make gear choices, but knowledge of the underlying mechanics will always allow players to get the most out of your gear. Savvy players understand that mechanics like "+% damage to skill X" or "Cooldown Reduction %" can provide significant increases to your combat effectiveness. Equipping your character is about much more than just making an abstract number on your character sheet as large as possible.

Healing is currently an estimation of approximately how much Life the game thinks you probably heal per second. Obviously it's just an estimation because mechanics such as Life Per Kill and Life Per Resource Spent don't translate directly into a Life per second value.

We've been talking about changing Healing into a "Toughness healed per second" value. This unfortunately makes it even more of an abstract concept, but it would help take into account that your damage mitigation enhances the value of your Life recovery stats. The ultimate goal of the three summary stats is to provide a "quick gut check" of an item's effect on your character, and making this change to Healing could probably help guide people better.
yea so i have noticed alot of people just stacking alot of vit like this as well and still dieing much faster then i do and i guess its mainly due to the numbers that show up as toughness while it may say that vit will give u more toughness then all res its not always the best imo ive been trying to go for something like 80% dmg reduced or close to it after this point i feel like dimishing returns its just not worth it at which point u can start to stack that vit or more healing maybe someone can do some math and number crunch it for us just exactly when stacking armor or all res is just not worth it anymore
04/18/2014 12:00 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Damage, Toughness and Healing are all designed to be rough guides to try and help players make gear choices, but knowledge of the underlying mechanics will always allow players to get the most out of your gear. Savvy players understand that mechanics like "+% damage to skill X" or "Cooldown Reduction %" can provide significant increases to your combat effectiveness. Equipping your character is about much more than just making an abstract number on your character sheet as large as possible.

Healing is currently an estimation of approximately how much Life the game thinks you probably heal per second. Obviously it's just an estimation because mechanics such as Life Per Kill and Life Per Resource Spent don't translate directly into a Life per second value.

We've been talking about changing Healing into a "Toughness healed per second" value. This unfortunately makes it even more of an abstract concept, but it would help take into account that your damage mitigation enhances the value of your Life recovery stats. The ultimate goal of the three summary stats is to provide a "quick gut check" of an item's effect on your character, and making this change to Healing could probably help guide people better.


seeing u are here wyatt, are you going to talk about SoH? or just skip that.
04/18/2014 12:24 PMPosted by CALLMEOCT
04/18/2014 12:00 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Damage, Toughness and Healing are all designed to be rough guides to try and help players make gear choices, but knowledge of the underlying mechanics will always allow players to get the most out of your gear. Savvy players understand that mechanics like "+% damage to skill X" or "Cooldown Reduction %" can provide significant increases to your combat effectiveness. Equipping your character is about much more than just making an abstract number on your character sheet as large as possible.

Healing is currently an estimation of approximately how much Life the game thinks you probably heal per second. Obviously it's just an estimation because mechanics such as Life Per Kill and Life Per Resource Spent don't translate directly into a Life per second value.

We've been talking about changing Healing into a "Toughness healed per second" value. This unfortunately makes it even more of an abstract concept, but it would help take into account that your damage mitigation enhances the value of your Life recovery stats. The ultimate goal of the three summary stats is to provide a "quick gut check" of an item's effect on your character, and making this change to Healing could probably help guide people better.


seeing u are here wyatt, are you going to talk about SoH? or just skip that.


Perhaps in a thread that is more on topic...
04/18/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Gazly
1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
The enemy does 500,000 damage per second which is 1/10 of your toughness, so that means each second, those monsters are hitting you for 50,000 life. we are healing at 20,000 life per second, so we are at a net loss of 30,000 life per second.
In this case, we will survive for 16.67 seconds.
not too bad huh?

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Again, same as above... the enemies damage us for 500,000 damage which is 1/10 of our toughness... That means these monsters are hitting us for 20,000 life per second. But we are also healing for 20,000 life per second. That means we are at a net change of 0 life per second.
In this case, we will NEVER die!


Ehh, really?

I'm wondering if you didn't make a mistake (I'm honestly wondering as I haven't tested it out so I just wanna make sure).

While I do agree that a tougher life point is a better life point, I have problem when you say that :

With 5M toughness and 200k hp you lose 20k life per second
With 5M toughness and 500k hp you lose 50k life per second

I don't get this part as if this was true, It would actually serve absolutely no purpose to increase life pool and vitality would be completely useless.

Didn't you mean something like

5M Toughness / 200k hp : 20k life per sec damage makes healing sufficient to be immortal
While :
2M toughness / 500k hp : 50k life per sec damage, which with 20k heal/sec would make you die, as you said in a few sec?
Edited by Attalus#2318 on 4/18/2014 12:42 PM PDT
04/18/2014 12:41 PMPosted by Attalus
04/18/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Gazly
1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
The enemy does 500,000 damage per second which is 1/10 of your toughness, so that means each second, those monsters are hitting you for 50,000 life. we are healing at 20,000 life per second, so we are at a net loss of 30,000 life per second.
In this case, we will survive for 16.67 seconds.
not too bad huh?

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Again, same as above... the enemies damage us for 500,000 damage which is 1/10 of our toughness... That means these monsters are hitting us for 20,000 life per second. But we are also healing for 20,000 life per second. That means we are at a net change of 0 life per second.
In this case, we will NEVER die!


Ehh, really?

I'm wondering if you didn't make a mistake (I'm honestly wondering as I haven't tested it out so I just wanna make sure).

While I do agree that a tougher life point is a better life point, I have problem when you say that :

With 5M toughness and 200k hp you lose 20k life per second
With 5M toughness and 500k hp you lose 50k life per second

I don't get this part as if this was true, It would actually serve absolutely no purpose to increase life pool and vitality would be completely useless.

Didn't you mean something like

5M Toughness / 200k hp : 20k life per sec damage makes healing sufficient to be immortal
While :
2M toughness / 500k hp : 50k life per sec damage, which with 20k heal/sec would make you die, as you said in a few sec?


What this guy said. Your math is wrong.
I rather think he just made a typo since his logic is ... well, logic. What is weirder is that people apparently approve without getting what is said, blue included.

Or is vitality taken into account into the toughness calculator? (As I said, didn't try this out, but that would be pretty dumb) If this were the case, the calculation are correct.
Edited by Attalus#2318 on 4/18/2014 1:21 PM PDT
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