Diablo® III

Suvivability Guide: Why Life Pool Hoarding is BAD!

It's simple really.

Enough Health to survive "X" hits > Armor/Resists > Healing > Additional health
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Toughness is indeed misleading. It should be mitigation, sustain (healing) and life. It is also worth including elite dam reduction factored in since you require 2-10 times the mitigation vs elites you would ever need vs trash.

A couple of points: 1. sustain can scale with life pool for certain skills making life stacking more valuable.
2. There is no way to accurately quantify the sustain provided by health globes.
Edited by ladish#1983 on 4/18/2014 12:51 PM PDT
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04/18/2014 12:00 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
We've been talking about changing Healing into a "Toughness healed per second" value. This unfortunately makes it even more of an abstract concept, but it would help take into account that your damage mitigation enhances the value of your Life recovery stats.


+1 to this. I've been arguing for this change for some time now.

The healing stat is misleading because it is denominated in different units from the other 2 summary stats. Healing is the only one whose units are unscaled life/damage. DPS and Toughness both take into account scaling factors (armor mitigation, crit factors, etc.). If Healing displayed Toughness/sec instead it would increase consistency by putting all 3 summary attributes in the same units.
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Back when the game released, I was doing inferno as a barb with ~25k hp and 1200 all resists. My friends would roll around in 60k-100k hp and laugh as they had double to triple my hp, but nothing inferno would kill me. This was when LoH weapons were king.

I would sell diablo kills on inferno for 1 mil a pop, and people joining in would be flabbergasted that I would stand and tank all of diablo's damage including the fire pools and shades and my HP wouldn't move. Same with doing inferno belial and standing still during the explosive pools, all with 25k hp.

I would drop vit for all res in a heartbeat; the dangers of low vit however are the instances where you cannot heal, such as being frozen, and (pre-patch), invulnerable mobs.
Edited by Endeavour#1528 on 4/18/2014 1:15 PM PDT
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04/18/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Gazly
Conclusion
Suvivability is a combination of killing speed and toughness and healing. for the defensive aspect, the more you stack Armor, All resist and damage reduction modifiers, the more potent your healing becomes so you can survive much longer even with a smaller toughness number. This leads to people witnessing a sense of "false toughness" when stacking life. In actuality, it isn't "false toughness," but just diluted healing


You did a really nice job illustrating this concept. Bravo.
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04/18/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Gazly
Suvivability is a combination of killing speed and toughness and healing. for the defensive aspect, the more you stack Armor, All resist and damage reduction modifiers, the more potent your healing becomes so you can survive much longer even with a smaller toughness number. This leads to people witnessing a sense of "false toughness" when stacking life. In actuality, it isn't "false toughness," but just diluted healing


This is incorrect. Your healing is only diluted if you are using a static healing number instead of one that scales. So really this guide should be "why life pool hoarding can sometimes be bad."

I mean what's the point in making a guide if the information inside is incorrect?
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04/18/2014 12:00 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Thanks for spreading awareness! Great write-up.

Damage, Toughness and Healing are all designed to be rough guides to try and help players make gear choices, but knowledge of the underlying mechanics will always allow players to get the most out of your gear. Savvy players understand that mechanics like "+% damage to skill X" or "Cooldown Reduction %" can provide significant increases to your combat effectiveness. Equipping your character is about much more than just making an abstract number on your character sheet as large as possible.

Healing is currently an estimation of approximately how much Life the game thinks you probably heal per second. Obviously it's just an estimation because mechanics such as Life Per Kill and Life Per Resource Spent don't translate directly into a Life per second value.

We've been talking about changing Healing into a "Toughness healed per second" value. This unfortunately makes it even more of an abstract concept, but it would help take into account that your damage mitigation enhances the value of your Life recovery stats. The ultimate goal of the three summary stats is to provide a "quick gut check" of an item's effect on your character, and making this change to Healing could probably help guide people better.


Thanks for help on this, Wyatt. I have a broader question related to this, however. If equipping is about more than just making certain stats into huge numbers on the character sheet, how does this help players who might not have the knowledge (or in some cases even math skills) to figure out the nuances of something like that? Seeing green numbers in the tooltip of a potential upgrade is intuitive: "This will give me more of this stat." Figuring out coefficients and things of that nature are great for players who are inclined to work out that math, but may not be so for those who aren't or don't know how. Consequently, players may wind up missing out on effective upgrades because of obscure math that doesn't translate directly into a green stat bonus, but translates into a functional upgrade because of that obscure math.

I realize that raising this issue brings some players to cry "Don't dumb down the game!", but I'm not always positive an argument like that rings true for a game like Diablo 3. It's a game about killing monsters and taking their stuff. Not every item that drops should be an upgrade; but an upgrade shouldn't be missed because of higher math vs. a more intuitive representation in the tooltip that a given item is actually a functional upgrade. We already have issues with figuring out whether a 2-handed weapon is an overall damage upgrade to someone who's dual wielding, particularly when you take into account the tooltip for the 2-hander not taking into account additional upgrades via a socketed gem in comparison to the two 1-handers that are likely already socketed.

I suppose I'm saying some more transparency in calculations, or just more intuitive tooltips, would definitely be appreciated. :)
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04/18/2014 12:00 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
We've been talking about changing Healing into a "Toughness healed per second" value.


+1
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Nice read this.

04/18/2014 01:38 PMPosted by BDF
04/18/2014 12:00 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
We've been talking about changing Healing into a "Toughness healed per second" value.


+1
I disagree.
Cause 'Healing' already says that if you think about it and the word is a lot nicer in itself than 'I got 500k damage, 5m toughness and 20k toughness healed per second'.
Simply 'Healing' works well I think.

Change the tooltip instead, if that wasn't what you were thinking about in the first place.
Not everyone know or is interested to know the deeper mathematical meaning of 'damage', 'toughness' and 'healing'.
It's good enough to know they do what they say they do.
Cause putting 'dps' instead of damage, 'ehp' instead toughness and 'thps' instead of healing will look awful, truly it will. But a great explanation from the tooltip wouldn't hurt. Perhaps you should look into making your own Help writing with mechanics explained right in the game?

EDIT: Ah I get it now, you're going to change the calculation. Yes, great idea.
Edited by Bombus#2506 on 4/19/2014 4:19 PM PDT
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@Wyatt: Any chance we could have a modifier key to show our toughness without Dodge, since it doesn't work on all damage sources and isn't as consistent as health/armor/AR? This would be especially nice if you plan to change Healing to "Toughness healed/second" (which incidently is a very nice change which I fully support).
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04/18/2014 11:03 AMPosted by Fr33k
While what you said in your post is technically true, it does not necessarily translate the same way in actual practice. The problem is that there isn't enough itemization slots in the 4/2 system to effectively balance all 3 areas (damage, toughness, healing). The problem is, is that in higher difficulties, monsters are going to be doing a lot more than 500k dps, and a lot more damage than what you can possibly negate through life regen and life on hit. That 20k health per second is not going to come even close to saving you in the higher levels of torment, and there isn't enough itemization opportunity to raise it to a level that it can. It is simply more effective to stack toughness in favor of healing and rely on potions and health globes for your healing instead of a passive regeneration or life on hit.


What about lpfs? I outheal all damage up to t3 using that, even standing on top of multiple arc beams or in the middle of several fire chains at once. I read the OP to mean 20k healing per second from all sources, not just from regen. And his point is still valuable even if you're getting hit for 600k, or 1m dps, or whatever. With the exact same toughness/replenish but lower life, it will take you LONGER to die at least if you have higher mitigation.
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Wyatt,

The current three stats are confusing at best. I know you don't want to swamp people with too much information in the red/green tooltip. I know I don't want to be inundated. But, the toughness stat and healing stat are not particularly good indicators of character durability. For some classes, they are downright terrible (i.e. dodge for DH - there are many things that cannot be dodged).

I would love to see more detailed comparisons -- maybe use the ctrl key that also exposes the stat ranges that were rolled. Toughness/mitigation/healing are all linked together and generate a picture of how durable your character is.

Stats I want to see as a wizard:
-Toughness (i.e. max hit I can survive)
-Healing and Shields multiplier - this is effectively toughness divided by life for a wizard, or a representation of "mitigation" or how good your armor is
-Toughness healed (as you propose)
-Weapon damage for selected skill slot (let us pick a skill to flag for comparison tooltip, i.e. let me pick disintegrate, or frozen orb, or whatever...)

Now, if I was playing a DH, I would want sightly different information
-Toughness (max hit I can survive WITHOUT FACTORING IN DODGE!!)
-Toughness with dodge included (i.e. survival against many small hits)
-Healing multiplier - Toughness (no dodge) divided by life total
-Toughness healed (does not include dodge), basically healing multiplier x healing stat
-Weapon damage for selected skill slot

For shield users, I would like to see toughness total as well as toughness without dodge or block included.

One way to keep it streamlined is to allow the player to customize which stats are showing up for comparison (i.e. the three red/green numbers)--

Add buttons next to toughness/damage/healing that let the player toggle what stats to use in comparison. So you could let a player toggle on/off dodge in the toughness stat. Or let them toggle what element/skill to use for damage comparisons. Toggle if they want healing or toughness healed.

BUT -- please add an overall mitigation factor WITHOUT DODGE OR BLOCK!! Something that lets you know how dense your armor is. This lets you know how much your healing skills are being amplified.
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04/18/2014 12:41 PMPosted by Attalus
1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
The enemy does 500,000 damage per second which is 1/10 of your toughness, so that means each second, those monsters are hitting you for 50,000 life. we are healing at 20,000 life per second, so we are at a net loss of 30,000 life per second.
In this case, we will survive for 16.67 seconds.
not too bad huh?

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Again, same as above... the enemies damage us for 500,000 damage which is 1/10 of our toughness... That means these monsters are hitting us for 20,000 life per second. But we are also healing for 20,000 life per second. That means we are at a net change of 0 life per second.
In this case, we will NEVER die!


As another poster pointed out, I don't understand this example either. Your math seems flawed. In both cases, the monsters should be hitting you for the same amount. You're not going to be taking less damage just because your health pool is smaller. IE; monsters don't hit for a % of your max health.

I agree that blindly stacking Vitality and % Life is a bad idea. However, not having enough life to take the mitigated hits is also a problem.
Edited by FoxyShoxzy#1253 on 4/18/2014 8:07 PM PDT
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around how much hp is recommended? 300k? You still need some for surviving high damage moments.
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Yep people don't seem to understand that having high HP isn't the most usefull thing in the world.

You really only need enough HP according to your own toughness / healing to be able to surive comfortably. For me having 170k HP (OMG quick kick him!!) is enough with my 10k life per sec and relatively fast killing speed for Life on Kill and Health Globes.
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Great write up and sticky requested. Stacking life is great, but it does need to be protected. OK, so you're probably looking at my DH right now going "WTH....This guy is got 466K HP....and he agrees with OP?" (actually it's over 500K with Perfectionist)

There is a method, a plan for my madness. It's kill quickly, avoid as much damage as possible, mitigate what damage I have to, and then heal quickly. For me, I use Brooding, so my healing is directly tied to my life. I need 500K HP to absorb one really big hit and speed my recovery along. It's part of a total package deal.

Wyatt is right. Savvy players understand that some stats like cool down reduction and crowd control reduction play a huge role in this game, and it is about more than simply inflating a number that's based on a very limited data set operating in a larger more complex equation.
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04/18/2014 08:06 PMPosted by FoxyShoxzy
04/18/2014 12:41 PMPosted by Attalus
1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
The enemy does 500,000 damage per second which is 1/10 of your toughness, so that means each second, those monsters are hitting you for 50,000 life. we are healing at 20,000 life per second, so we are at a net loss of 30,000 life per second.
In this case, we will survive for 16.67 seconds.
not too bad huh?

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Again, same as above... the enemies damage us for 500,000 damage which is 1/10 of our toughness... That means these monsters are hitting us for 20,000 life per second. But we are also healing for 20,000 life per second. That means we are at a net change of 0 life per second.
In this case, we will NEVER die!


As another poster pointed out, I don't understand this example either. Your math seems flawed. In both cases, the monsters should be hitting you for the same amount. You're not going to be taking less damage just because your health pool is smaller. IE; monsters don't hit for a % of your max health.

I agree that blindly stacking Vitality and % Life is a bad idea. However, not having enough life to take the mitigated hits is also a problem.


Isn't Vitality a part of Toughness? Either directly or not, the tooltip indicates that one of the factors is "Maximum Life". In that respect, Vitality has to have at least a roundabout effect.

That being the case, if you have 5 million toughness but the lower health value, the stat is being propped up elsewhere (through allres, armor, dodge or whatever) which negates a larger portion of incoming damage (20,000 damage as opposed to 50,000 in this example).

His statement would hold in that sense, since even though you have the same toughness, it's being bolstered through mitigation rather than sheer health bonuses.
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04/18/2014 08:06 PMPosted by FoxyShoxzy
04/18/2014 12:41 PMPosted by Attalus
1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
The enemy does 500,000 damage per second which is 1/10 of your toughness, so that means each second, those monsters are hitting you for 50,000 life. we are healing at 20,000 life per second, so we are at a net loss of 30,000 life per second.
In this case, we will survive for 16.67 seconds.
not too bad huh?

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Again, same as above... the enemies damage us for 500,000 damage which is 1/10 of our toughness... That means these monsters are hitting us for 20,000 life per second. But we are also healing for 20,000 life per second. That means we are at a net change of 0 life per second.
In this case, we will NEVER die!


As another poster pointed out, I don't understand this example either. Your math seems flawed. In both cases, the monsters should be hitting you for the same amount. You're not going to be taking less damage just because your health pool is smaller. IE; monsters don't hit for a % of your max health.

I agree that blindly stacking Vitality and % Life is a bad idea. However, not having enough life to take the mitigated hits is also a problem.


The example, and his math, are both fine.

The toughness stat just takes your health pool and uses your damage reduction from resists and armour to give you a number. You can have the same toughness with a small health pool and high damage reduction or with a large health pool and less damage reduction.

In his example both characters have the exact same toughness stat meaning both characters would take the exact same number of hits before death. He doesn't explicitly say it, but it's obvious the second one has a much higher damage reduction in order to make up for the smaller health pool which is why he's getting hit for less damage.

The point of this thread is that a toughness based on a small health pool with high damage reduction is the better option because static heal values become more powerful the higher your damage reduction is. Stats like Life per Second, Life per Kill, Life per Spirit/Wrath/Fury Spent, etc. are all more valuable for players as they increase their damage reduction.
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04/19/2014 01:14 AMPosted by adecesar
The point of this thread is that a toughness based on a small health pool with high damage reduction is the better option because static heal values become more powerful the higher your damage reduction is. Stats like Life per Second, Life per Kill, Life per Spirit/Wrath/Fury Spent, etc. are all more valuable for players as they increase their damage reduction.


Precisely.

Player A stacked only life bonuses, has 5 million toughness, 500,000 life and takes 50,000 damage a hit.

Player B stacked various mitigation stats, has 5 million toughness, 200,000 life and takes 20,000 damage a hit.

Now pretend they both have 25,000 worth of healing through whatever means.

Player A is absorbing more damage than they can effectively heal through, while player B, despite having a smaller health bar, isn't threatened by the incoming damage much at all.
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04/18/2014 12:00 PMPosted by Wyatt Cheng
Thanks for spreading awareness! Great write-up.

Damage, Toughness and Healing are all designed to be rough guides to try and help players make gear choices,

sadly the way how it works right now, it only helps them to make the "wrong" choices. So in the end it doesnt really do what it is made for. Same issue with sheet-dps. If the idea is to give people a general guide line, then it is not doing its job correctly. Sorry but thats how it is in my opinion.

Vitality for example is a very important stat, but it is not as important like AR and armor together. Yet the thoughness sometimes will show higher values but your character will be more fragile, because you're not taking MORE damage from a single hit. This leads to situations where people throw away certain items, beleving they are now stronger, yet they can not get in to higher difficulties.

I know you dont like the idea that people have to do "math" to play the game. But right now, the system around DPS and thoughness is very missleading. There are ways how to do calculations that are much more correct to the real values. Is it really that difficult to achieve something that is closer to the real values? I mean the game has to calculate the damage afterall. Somehow. Show players the real values. People are not so dump that they cant read a few stats more then just "damage per second".
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