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ok thanks, next time I stack only 200 000 hp and rest goes to armor/resist and main stat. I should be able to survive 1 shot in torment 6?
Edited by Babymaker#2675 on 4/19/2014 3:43 AM PDT
Nice post. I tried explaining this to kids in general chat after calling me 'trash' for not having. 500k life lol, i invited them to join me and see if their 5x playtime toon could tank half as well as me. They didn't join :)
Paper stats are a guide. Artificially inflating them might make your profile look cool but doesn't help where it matters!
Edited by Pariah#1412 on 4/19/2014 3:47 AM PDT
Any chance you could add the 30% damage reduction barbs and monks get, into toughness? From what I can tell, it's not factored in.
Alright, I think I get it now. Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain what he means.
Even though he came right out and said that the max life total was lower in scenario 2, it didn't click in my brain that he implied the same toughness through higher mitigation.
Was having a hard time getting my head around why the monsters were hitting 30k less in that scenario, but it looks like I'm not the only one so I don't feel too bad.
Edited by FoxyShoxzy#1253 on 4/19/2014 6:24 AM PDT
I think a lot of confusion could be fixed for new players if they simply removed life from the "toughness" number on the basic tool-tip and item comparison. I didn't know the math behind it, but as I've been leveling up (still in that stage, so not even working on high difficulties yet), I've seen gear that would say it would increase my toughness by a pretty good chunk, but it's an armor and resist decrease... I slowly figured out that it was just because of a large vitality boost or %life boost. Once I figured that out, I stopped paying attention to the tooltip and just looking at what stats it actually changed.
If they changed that alone, I think a lot of people would realize their "toughness" isn't so great. Maybe put four tooltips (to not bog it down): Damage, Healing, Toughness, Life (or Effective Life). Life could either show a % of flat number change, or could show how much effective health you gain/lose with the change (so it would show how armor/resist impacts your effective health).
You weren't alone. I was thinking the same thing until I started seeing responses.
Gazly: Maybe modify the OP just slightly. Explain just a little bit to say something like "With 5,000,000 toughness and a 500,000 life pool, you would take 50k damage per second. With 5,000,000 toughness and a 200,000 life pool, you would take 20k damage per second. The reason for the change is that toughness includes your life, so if you have the same toughness with a lower health pool, the rest of the toughness is coming from various sources of damage mitigation, rather than from your health pool, meaning the monsters hit for less each time that before."
Edited by Hammy#2380 on 4/19/2014 6:50 AM PDT
Some basic questions.
1. Originally the different defenses had diminishing returns. Is that still true? If so is that factored into toughness information?
2. To be clear Armor and Resist All work on every type of damage in the game right?
3. I'm very bad at math. People say that you can do the math yourself to determine what an improvement is. Can you give an example? when i'm using the mystic trying to raise dps It might roll Primary stat as first choice and 100-150 damage as second i never know which to pick. Or if i'm trying to increase toughness and it rolls armor as first choice and resist all as second. I lack the basic information needed to do comparisons myself.
5. Are most of you guys under the opinion that dps and toughness should be ignored completely?
How misleading can the info be? You make it sound like those of us without calculators on hand are doing it wrong...
Is there anyway you could add more clarity to this area in the U.I. without dumbing things down?
Edited by Ephex#1640 on 4/19/2014 11:22 AM PDT
They have bigger problems than just UI. For example, dodge is and always will be worth far less than armor and allres and because of that dex is worse than str and int.
Most of this is EHP which is understood due to research on how tanks should gear in other games (like WoW or EQ1). The particular points that the OP was trying to make are that damage reduction increases the value of 1 hp which in turn increases the value of healing. In comparing the opportunity cost of more hp vs. more damage reduction vs. more healing the answer as to which is the better EHP choice isn't always the intuitive more hp. This has always been the case; in vanilla healing via lifesteal typically played a large role as in general it was the best choice given the stat weights on gear.
If you want to learn more I would really recommend seeking sites with EHP theory and tank gearing theory for other games. The information is out there and you will learn a lot like why dodge is not an EHP stat.
Edited by Dusk#1228 on 4/19/2014 11:42 AM PDT
Toughness is toughness. For a given amount of toughness, you will die in the same amount of hits irrespective of your life pool.
As a rule of thumb, figure out the toughness you need to not get instantly vaporized by mobs, then lower your HP pool as much as you can without lowering your toughness.
Just wanted to chime in, great post. I slowly came to the same realization especially with my monk that not only uses healing but shields. HIGHER TOUGHNESS:LIFE RATIO = MORE POWERFUL SHIELDS.
The real tricky part where this comes into play is when it is better to REDUCE your toughness number while also REDUCING your total life to INCREASE the value of your healing and thus the total dps that can be sustained over a period of time (we'll call it sustainability). This is most prevalent on Shoulders/Chest/Belt if you are deciding between life %/vit/armor/life regen.
Now, the one caveat to the relationship above is that you can't drop your toughness below a threshold amount where you get blown up in 1 second (I've found 10mil toughness to be about right for T3). So assuming we are just talking about survivability, here is an example that shows LESS toughness = BETTER SURVIVABILITY. These are actual numbers pre and post enchanting.
Chest choice: 12% life vs. 500 armor
12% life --> 400k life, 8.5mil toughness, 28k healing/sec
Regen 7% of total life/sec or can sustain through 600k dmg/sec
500 armor --> 360k life, 8mil toughness, 28k healing/sec
Regen 7.8% total life/sec or can sustain through 620k dmg/sec
Its weird to see your toughness go down and survivability go up but this shows armor is more valuable (Vile Ward making a comeback?). Just dont drop below your personal threshold toughness value.
Also, life regen ends up being super close in sustainability value so it depends on your build. Just dont blindly follow the green!! Happy hunting
On #1 no, to my knowledge all res and armor never had diminishing returns and they certainly don't now. 1 pt of each is worth the same regardless of how much you have and is linear. Now the actual damage reduction they provide (the percentage shown in character sheet details) does vary by how much you have.. if you have a lot and get some it goes up less than if you have very little and get some. This is done intentionally to preserve that linear value (i.e. no diminishing returns) and if you understand EHP you'll know why: damage reduction becomes more powerful the more of it you have since it increases the value of 1 hp.
#3, It requires calculation and the knowledge of the formulas which you can find. In the past there were websites that allowed you to simulate gear and gave good calculations. Because this is opportunity cost and the way the formulas interact it generally requires details of what stats your character has so there is no easy answer that always applies. A lot of times the answer is counter-intuitive (e.g. for most levels of mainstat @ 70 a 15% skill\elemental affix is better damage than a max mainstat roll).
I would recommend understanding what you can (there are sites that have the formulas and some class forums have calculated priorities, barb I know has a thread about this) but also finding the 3rd party sites to do the calculations for you.
#5 Which are you talking about? On the character sheet or when comparing equipment? They are a rough guide but not that useful. They aren't good at all for comparing one character with another.
All I'm getting from this, is less life and more toughness and life regeneration is the way to go. Sorry if this isn't what you're saying, but I have a hard time comprehending this stuff. Lately I just go to the items that are giving me green numbers. There has been times when I find a item that's pretty much the same, but I wonder which will benefit me more in the long run in concerns to toughness. You can only rely on the green numbers only so much.
My answers are going to be math-heavy, unfortunately, however I've attempted to include examples in each part of the reply to help things along. Please ask for clarification if necessary.
1. Yes, and Yes.
1a. Diminishing returns aren't as bad as one might think, though. It does take more of a mitigation value as time goes on to get the same %, true (as in, it'll take much more of a mitigation stat to go from 50% to 75% than it does from 25% to 50%), however if you consider it from what your mitigation is right now before the new value is in place, it is almost always the same effectiveness now compared to before.
An equation one can use for this purpose is:
(NewMitigation - OldMitigation) / (100 - Old Mitigation) * 100 = Effectiveness From Old Value
Example: If you take 75% less damage before, and will take 80% less damage instead with an upgrade, you're actually going to take 20% further less damage than before if you take the difference in account. ((80 - 75) / (100 - 75) * 100 = 5 / 25 * 100 = 20)
Example: If you take 80% less damage before, and will take 85% less damage instead with an upgrade, you're actually going to take 25% less damage than before if you take the difference into account. ((85 - 80) / (100 - 80) * 100 = 5 / 20 * 100 = 25)
1b. As an example of how eHP works (which is basically what the Toughness stat is, though I'm simplifying it here for comprehension), let's say, without knowing exactly how Armor works and ignoring resistances as well as other mitigations,
10,000 Armor = 75% less damage taken
12,000 Armor = 80% less damage taken
16,000 Armor = 85% less damage taken
75% less damage taken with 100,000HP means you take 25,000 per 100,000HP.
80% less damage taken with 100,000HP means you take 20,000 per 100,000HP.
85% less damage taken with 100,000HP means you take 15,000 per 100,000HP.
You then take your HP value, divide it by what you take per your HP as above, and then multiply the number you get by your HP value, you'll find your eHP.
Simply: HP / MitigatedDamagePerLifePool * HP = eHP
If you have 100,000HP and take 25,000 per 100,000HP, you have 400,000eHP.
If you have 100,000HP and take 20,000 per 100,000HP, you have 500,000eHP.
If you have 100,000HP and take 15,000 per 100,000HP, you have 666,667eHP.
2. As the game is coded right now, yes, Armor and Resist All (though with how Toughness calculates things, average resistance is better spoken of) both reduce all damage taken.
Combined Mitigation from Armor & Resistances: (1 - (1 - Resist%/100) * (1 - Armor%/100)) * 100 = Combined%
If you for example take 80% less damage with Resistances and 75% less damage with Armor, you take overall 95% less damage from enemies in general.
To verify: (1 - (1 - .80) * (1 - .75)) * 100 = (1 - (.20 * .25)) * 100 = (1 - .05) * 100 = .95 * 100 = 95
Bringing this in line with 1b., if you take 95% less damage from enemies with a 100,000HP pool, you have 2,000,000eHP.
3. I think I took care of the math already above for mitigation, but some things to consider on what kind of Toughness depend on both class and build.
-If you play an INT class, you can stack resists fairly easily, but begin to hunger for Armor as the tweaking goes along.
-If you play a STR class, you might be able to achieve massive amounts of armor but it's almost always easier to add Resists to your mitigation.
-If you play a DEX class, your dodge will misrepresent your Toughness because of ground effects and unavoidable damage. That said, it's far easier to stack resists than armor purely from a mitigation standpoint (though armor will begin to matter more after a certain point), especially as a Monk with the passive One With Everything allowing you to stack a secondary resist higher than Resist All rolls can allow. Awareness as a Demon Hunter is especially helpful for evading certain elite affix mechanics momentarily but will bloat your Toughness rating as far as sustained attempts at your life goes.
Damage is more complicated. A number of affixes that empower your actual damage output are not reflected in Damage, such as Elemental+%, Skill+% and Elite+%, and you'll have to consider your needs more carefully offensively than defensively. As a general rule of thumb though, unless you rely on crits for proccing or want to keep crit chance for whatever reason is necessary, if a piece of gear says -X% Damage in comparison to what you're wearing but has a good Elemental/Skill+% affix where you didn't have one before, if the % on the affix outweighs the -% in Damage, it's probably a better pick if you focus on that element or skill.
Example: If a new gear says -10% damage but has a new affix your old gear doesn't that upgrades your main element/skill by 15%, that's a 5% gain as an approximation. The actual gain is a little lower due to the math involved (3.5%), but it suffices generally.
For the in-depth math:
If, say, your Damage is 1,000,000, and you get a gear that compares it as -10% damage, you'll fall down to 900,000. However, if there's an affix on it that says +15% Arcane, it'll raise the eDPS for Arcane to 1,035,000. That's 35k higher than the original 1m, and (35,000/1,000,000)*100% = 0.035 * 100% = 3.5%.
5. Looking at all the math I did to demonstrate what's going on under the hood? D/T/H are helpful, to be sure, but they don't offer enough of a viewpoint, in my feeling, for those that want to push themselves to the limit, so long as people continue to use listed D/T/H as a superficial comparison point between themselves and other people.
Perhaps more effective evaluations would be:
-A hover-table for Damage that represents eDPS using Elements and/or Skills currently allocated to the Skill Bar. eDPS vs. Elites might be useful but not necessary to include, as it's a fairly straightforward formula from there.
-A hover-table for Toughness that displays effective mitigation, in % form, including normal monsters and Elites. (Whether this should include the +2level for Champions or +3level for Other Elites, I'm not certain.) Melee/Ranged mitigation is a similar matter as Elites in Damage.
-I'm undecided how Healing should be handled, because circumstances, resource/cooldown management (including healing granted from Skills), and mob density can largely dictate your ability to make use of each individual piece of Healing moment by moment.
This is exactly how it works. glad to see others can understand that. I went from 10m touyghness and 50k, to a dps machine, but keeping 6-8m toughness at around 250k hp. I increased my dodge, my ar, my armor, and my healing, and i can run higher torments because i sustain
Isn't this common sense? getting vit and life% have always significantly increased EHP cause that only reflects how much max damage you can take in 1 hit. This is why toughness is a bad stat, because in reality, you only need enough toughness to survive not getting 1 shotted by 95% of enemy attacks. You're never only taking a single attack, so having high mitagation and the healing to cover that mitagation is far more important than just stacking EHP.
Forgive me if I'm wrong (and I very well could be), but with 5,000,000 toughness and a 500,000 life pool vs. a 200,000 life pool, if you're taking 50,000 damage hits that are directly based off of toughness you will die faster with less life. Unless - the toughness scales according to life on a percentage basis effectively mitigating the 50,000 damage to a lower figure with the 200,000 health pool, thus making healing more impactful, but also not making much sense because it would just be a health gating scenario like people used to do with force armor Wizards in D3V.
From my experience, the game deals static damage dependent on toughness not dependent on toughness in conjunction with your life pool as a percentage. So 500,000 would be better no matter what because you would not be dependent on healing as much. Yes at 200,000 you would have more instances where you were at "max life" more of the time, but you would be more likely to be constantly one or two-shotted.
So what if I get hit or spiked for 200,001 hp? I mean if I have like carrion bat nibbling on my ear I can see how this makes sense. How about if I get vortexed, frozen, and then clown punched by a mallet lord?
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