Diablo® III

Suvivability Guide: Why Life Pool Hoarding is BAD!

04/19/2014 02:33 PMPosted by Swampllama
Apparently nobody in this thread has encountered such percentage-based healing options as health potions.


Curious jab, considering the affix Healing Globes and potions grant +X life skews the notion after a point if stacked, and affects Healing as a result. Nevermind that both are far less reliable than what people have to endure with the absence of Healing Globes as well as during the cooldown of potions.
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04/19/2014 02:58 PMPosted by Senkaon
04/19/2014 02:33 PMPosted by Swampllama
Apparently nobody in this thread has encountered such percentage-based healing options as health potions.


Curious jab, considering the affix Healing Globes and potions grant +X life skews the notion after a point if stacked, and affects Healing as a result. Nevermind that both are far less reliable than what people have to endure with the absence of Healing Globes as well as during the cooldown of potions.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/barbarian/active/rend

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/crusader/passive/holy-cause

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/demon-hunter/active/elemental-arrow

etc.

The basic premise of this "guide" is incorrect. Also if you can't handle surviving with only potions and health globes then simply don't play like you can?
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04/19/2014 02:33 PMPosted by Swampllama
Apparently nobody in this thread has encountered such percentage-based healing options as health potions.


Actually % healing doesn't change anything about this discussion. It's totally irrelevant.

For a given toughness value, the % of HP you would lose for a given amount of incoming damage is independent of life pool size. So potions and skills that heal a percentage of your total HP are just as effective at a lower health pool level.
Edited by gibsnium#1292 on 4/19/2014 3:14 PM PDT
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04/19/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Veyron
04/18/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Gazly
Lesson 2: Life is strengthened by All Resist and Armor
What is better?
1. 5,000,000 Toughness with a 500,000 life pool
2. 5,000,000 Toughness with a 200,000 life pool
3. Doesn't matter, 5,000,000 toughness is 5,000,000 toughness

The answer, every time, is option 2. If you keep your toughness constant while simultaneously lowering your life, it means each life point becomes stronger which makes your healing more potent.


So what if I get hit or spiked for 200,001 hp? I mean if I have like carrion bat nibbling on my ear I can see how this makes sense. How about if I get vortexed, frozen, and then clown punched by a mallet lord?


Well, you would get hit for 500 002 hp (or 500 003, depending if they round up or down). You would be dead in both cases.
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What i don't really understand - please help me with that.

This is my Char: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Foe-1837/hero/7327219

Should i now reroll my Tals Chest +15% HP into AllRes/Armor and should i craft some new shoulders without +life/Vit and just go for Armor/AllRes ?
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04/19/2014 04:53 PMPosted by Foe
What i don't really understand - please help me with that.

This is my Char: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Foe-1837/hero/7327219

Should i now reroll my Tals Chest +15% HP into AllRes/Armor and should i craft some new shoulders without +life/Vit and just go for Armor/AllRes ?


At first glance I would say yes. You should use a EHP calculator to make sure.

Basically, if you can keep the same toughness while dropping the vitality and + % life, then yes it's a good move.

If you can't keep the same toughness, then it's more difficult to make the decision. It would then depend on the amount of healing you have and making sure you have enough toughness to live through burst.
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People constantly fall for the '% life heal' trap.

The higher your life pool, the better heal you get from a % life heal.
Right?

No, wrong.

A % life heal is effectively a % ehp heal.

Two players with the same ehp but made up in different ways;
1. High life pool, medium armour and resists.
2. Medium life pool, high armour and resists.

Get THE EXACT SAME ehp heal from a % life heal.

The kicker, is that the 2nd example, the one with the lower life, gets a bigger ehp heal for flat heals such as life on hit, flat life per sec, life steal from damage done, etc.
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is there a max resist we can obtain just wondering im at 2500 right now was wondering what the max resist cap is?
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04/18/2014 10:55 AMPosted by DoomBringer
A very valid point --- until you use Unity ring.

Unity + high health = made of win.


this is a unique point to make

also, if you are hardcore please for your own sake do a difficulty that reflects the gear, we have all learned this lesson before.
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04/18/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Gazly
This leads to people witnessing a sense of "false toughness" when stacking life. In actuality, it isn't "false toughness," but just diluted healing


Has been a big gripe and I totally agree. These summarised false stats are meaningless and doesn't serve as an real indication to the power, toughness, or anything at all.

In the end, the green numbers doesn't mean anything. Some items you find may have red numbers, but are actually better because they come with the right stats. Coincidentally, picking up items purely on green numbers will sometimes end up making your character weaker.
Edited by unchecked#1694 on 4/19/2014 5:48 PM PDT
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All I'm getting from this, is less life and more toughness and life regeneration is the way to go. Sorry if this isn't what you're saying, but I have a hard time comprehending this stuff. Lately I just go to the items that are giving me green numbers. There has been times when I find a item that's pretty much the same, but I wonder which will benefit me more in the long run in concerns to toughness. You can only rely on the green numbers only so much.
Edited by Brad#1628 on 4/19/2014 5:42 PM PDT
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04/19/2014 03:08 PMPosted by Swampllama


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/barbarian/active/rend

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/crusader/passive/holy-cause

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/demon-hunter/active/elemental-arrow

etc.

The basic premise of this "guide" is incorrect. Also if you can't handle surviving with only potions and health globes then simply don't play like you can?


You seem to misunderstand the point we're making. If you're using those runes and passives, you're not using more offensive ones. With enough mitigation and on-gear Healing, it's possible to not have to rely on skill/passive crutches as often for survival's sake.

(And honestly? I'd prefer using an escape/slow skill to avoid getting hurt/killed rather than be put in a position of having to take damage and get my life back, unless I can build a way into low-to-0-damage-taken builds, a niche Crusaders fill with ease.)

These discussions are without those things in mind. Both skills/passives that restore life as well as escape skills only further extend our survival. The root of it begins at our core, the equipment. That's what we're talking about.

Now, concerning those skills you linked that provide +% life per hit, that's quite fine and all but it's the same thing (meaning, regardless of how life and mitigation are skewed) so long as the eHP remains the same. With the same eHP but different weights on both Life Pool and Mitigation, they restore the same effective percentage of health per use.

200,000HP & 50% mitigation has 400,000eHP restore 240,000 base eHP per potion.
100,000HP & 75% mitigation has 400,000eHP restore 240,000 base eHP per potion.

Ah, but what you can work with during combat concerning Healing and waiting for that potion matters more as eHP is skewed towards mitigation further and further.

If you get hit by 20,000 damage once a second, and have 5k LpH (coeffient = 1) attacking once a second:
With 50% mitigation, you take 10k damage per second and losing 5k HP per second..
With 75% mitigation, you take 5k damage per second and are breaking even.

In one scenario, you'll eventually be forced to use a potion. In another, you'll be able to sustain until another threat decides to bother you alongside your current one.

...

As an aside, I brought up Health globes and potions restore +X life because this affix helps more with Toughness skewed towards mitigation rather than life pool, just like LpS & LpH. Put simply: The smaller your HP pool, the easier it is for both restoratives to fill you up using this affix.

Let's say you have +20k Healing Globe Bonus:

If you have 200,000HP, a potion will heal you for (.6 * 200,000) + 20k = 120,000 + 20k = 140k, healing you for (140,000 / 200,000 * 100%) = 70% health.

If you have 100,000HP, a potion will heal you for (.6 * 100,000) + 20k = 60,000 + 20k = 80k, healing you for (80,000 / 100,000 * 100%) = 80% health!

(Of course, once you've used one, you're back to waiting 30 seconds hoping to survive long enough... nevermind that this is moot if you're forced to pop it early due to reflex...)

(Edit: General hootenanny, and Battle.net bothering me with login during the post made me post before I was ready.)
Edited by Senkaon#1858 on 4/19/2014 6:15 PM PDT
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04/18/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Gazly
So I have been playing for a very long time on softcore and recently have been doing a bunch on hardcore, where survivability becomes paramount (of course). I ran across someone in my clan the other day, and have actually ran across many people of a similar mindset so I decided to write it all down here so it could actually help someone.

Anyway, he could not understand why I am able to do 1 level of difficulty higher than him when my toughness number was about 40% of what his was. So we joined a game together and started killing some things and he began to wonder why my life pool was barely moving as I took damage, while his would drain a little bit, but not significantly to put him in danger.

The thing to remember is that your character survivability is a function of all 3 things, Damage, Toughness, and Healing.

Also, we are assuming no other damage reduction for simplicity. we are only considering healing, life, armor, and all resist.

Lesson 1: Kill Quickly
The faster you kill, the less damage you take, and thus the less you have to heal. This is pretty self explanatory, and not specifically the aim of this thread.

Lesson 2: Life is strengthened by All Resist and Armor
What is better?
    1. 5,000,000 Toughness with a 500,000 life pool
    2. 5,000,000 Toughness with a 200,000 life pool
    3. Doesn't matter, 5,000,000 toughness is 5,000,000 toughness


The answer, every time, is option 2. If you keep your toughness constant while simultaneously lowering your life, it means each life point becomes stronger which makes your healing more potent.

Let's do some math and assume we heal for 20,000 life per second and we are fighting monsters while taking 500,000 damage per second... How long will your character last?

1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
The enemy does 500,000 damage per second which is 1/10 of your toughness, so that means each second, those monsters are hitting you for 50,000 life. we are healing at 20,000 life per second, so we are at a net loss of 30,000 life per second.
In this case, we will survive for 16.67 seconds.
not too bad huh?

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Again, same as above... the enemies damage us for 500,000 damage which is 1/10 of our toughness... That means these monsters are hitting us for 20,000 life per second. But we are also healing for 20,000 life per second. That means we are at a net change of 0 life per second.
In this case, we will NEVER die!

3. 8,000,000 Toughness with 800,000 life pool (which is about what my clan-mate had)
Again, 500,000 damage which is 1/16 of our toughness, so the monsters are hitting for 50,000 damage. we end up in the same scenario as number 1 where we eventually die, but it takes a lot longer. Losing 30,000 health per second with 800,000 health.
In this case, we will survive for 26.67 seconds.

Lesson 3: Healing is more potent when stacking armor and All Resist
we saw above how someone with 3 million more toughness will eventually die when stacked next to someone whose toughness is more seated in all resist and armor. The reason is each point of life has a toughness value associated with it when taking into account all of the other multipliers.

1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
Each life point here accounts for 10 toughness, so when we have 20,000 healing per second, we are really only regenerating 200,000 toughness per second.

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Each life point here accounts for 25 toughness, so when we have 20,000 healing per seconds, are are actually regenerating 500,000 toughness per second

3. 8,000,000 Toughness with 800,000 life pool (which is about what my clan-mate had)
Each life point accounts for 10 toughness so again, we are only regenerating 200,000 toughness per second.

Conclusion
Suvivability is a combination of killing speed and toughness and healing. for the defensive aspect, the more you stack Armor, All resist and damage reduction modifiers, the more potent your healing becomes so you can survive much longer even with a smaller toughness number. This leads to people witnessing a sense of "false toughness" when stacking life. In actuality, it isn't "false toughness," but just diluted healing


LMAO to bad monsters do not hit at a % of your health so your math is wrong.
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You should try to give it another chance, Skinnyd; they might have explained it in a way that makes it odd-to-read for you, but at no point did Gazly actually intend to mean that monsters hit you at a % of your health.
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So if I understand this right, I want to max my damage and gear based upon Damage and Toughness over healing and my healing boosts for my gear should be based off... what?

Life on Hit?

If the idea is to keep my life pool low by ignoring + Life % and + Vitality attributes while maximizing my damage and toughness, then surely there is a life attribute I should value on my gear. I am new to this so if I am understanding this correctly then I think we are in good shape, if not, I would love some more clarification.
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It kind of depends, but generally Life per Hit is the most useful Healing stat consistently, because its effectiveness at healing is based on your attacks per second (APS) and your skills' coefficients. Of course, there are some exceptions... (See: Demon Hunters and Brooding, where I'd actually want to stack Vit to at least some degree, or at least swap it in against LpS rolls)

Purely as an example, if you have 10k LpH and have enough attack speed to get 2APS using a skill with coefficient of 1, that's 20k healed per second. Of course, most skills are going to have generally lower coefficients depending on the number of targets they can potentially hit at once, but with enough monsters around it adds up to about the same thing on average, if not moreso. There are some things you can take advantage of to further boost your healing from Life per Hit too (See: Witch Doctors' Zombie Dogs - Leeching Beasts Rune), but that's the basic idea.

Life per Second is a useful side stat if you happen to have it, as that's the only life regeneration you have when you're not attacking (LpH) or killing things (LpK). It also contributes while you're doing those things, but some builds require more repositioning between attacks than others.

Life per Kill is only circumstantial and based on mob density - a nice perk for Illusionist Elites, and those that summon more monsters, but it's not going to help much against, say, a boss without adds.

(Edit: Used a more realistic average example in the LpH section.)
Edited by Senkaon#1858 on 4/19/2014 7:31 PM PDT
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04/19/2014 05:58 PMPosted by Senkaon
These discussions are without those things in mind. Both skills/passives that restore life as well as escape skills only further extend our survival. The root of it begins at our core, the equipment. That's what we're talking about.


Fair enough. I would point that out in your original post, just for clarity's sake.
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04/19/2014 07:51 PMPosted by Swampllama
04/19/2014 05:58 PMPosted by Senkaon
These discussions are without those things in mind. Both skills/passives that restore life as well as escape skills only further extend our survival. The root of it begins at our core, the equipment. That's what we're talking about.


Fair enough. I would point that out in your original post, just for clarity's sake.


Fair in return, though my own posts were to answer some other questions in the thread. Actually, your interest brought along some additional things to consider, so good on you anyway for bringing it up!

@Th3D1rtSt4R: On top of my earlier post, consider that the three tanky classes in the game (Barbarian, Monk, Crusader) have access to life-gained-per-resource-spent rolls on gear, which tend to be much more valuable than the other standard sources of Healing by a large margin, especially for those builds that are able to spend their resources a good amount of the time.

Also, some Skills/Passives make use of different Healing stats, if one considers those, so you might want to look out for those specific rolls on gear as well if you want to use those avenues.

(Edit: Formatting ... Can I get through a post today without having to edit it?)
Edited by Senkaon#1858 on 4/19/2014 8:31 PM PDT
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Thanks for the info. I guess I need to reevaluate my gearing situation a bit. This thread has been incredibly helpful and so has your response.
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I'd really like if blizzard displayed some better numbers.

Damage - Toughness - Healing

could be instead:

Damage - Toughness - %Heal/sec

where %heal/sec is the % of your life you heal each second.

----------------

or actually they could just add an 'advanced' stats button where you can display a time to live calculator and things like that.
Edited by Ucross#1702 on 4/19/2014 11:33 PM PDT
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