Diablo® III

Suvivability Guide: Why Life Pool Hoarding is BAD!

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after reading this whole thread the basic maths in it remind me of the "55 monk" from guild wars 1

the concept behind the build was simple :: low life + mitigation + lps heals = godmode

we made monk characters and used a variety of items to get health down to 55hp, then used shields that gave 90% mitigation (aka only take 5 dmg per sec even on crit) with a lps heal bond that gave 7hps, so you basically outhealed any damage taken at all times

With everything mentioned above I assume that this tactic (which we ran over 8 years ago) appears viable here and now :)
04/20/2014 02:40 AMPosted by Godzealot
04/20/2014 01:01 AMPosted by Anuhart
Again, GLinHC, your thinking is your biggest threat right now.


Never died before. I don't adjust my HP pool and resists/armor, I take it all. And life per second will save you during lag spike/frozen? Think about what you said.


Life per sec will have a bigger effect on a low life character than a high life character with the same ehp, period.

A damage spike that kills the former will kill the latter. However a damage spike that kills the latter will not necessarily kill the former.

Honestly, it isn't rocket surgery.
04/20/2014 03:50 AMPosted by Anuhart
04/20/2014 02:40 AMPosted by Godzealot
...

Never died before. I don't adjust my HP pool and resists/armor, I take it all. And life per second will save you during lag spike/frozen? Think about what you said.


Life per sec will have a bigger effect on a low life character than a high life character with the same ehp, period.

A damage spike that kills the former will kill the latter. However a damage spike that kills the latter will not necessarily kill the former.

Honestly, it isn't rocket surgery.


I know what OP is saying, and I agree. Healing is better if you have less life pool. In fact, if I were playing softcore, I would do exactly what OP is saying.

However, in HC, this is a bad idea. Would you roll away 750 vit for 100 all resist? Why not take both? That's all I'm saying.
04/20/2014 02:42 AMPosted by ThySerpent
04/19/2014 11:39 PMPosted by DeathVirus
Dodge inflates toughness like no other.


This makes me wonder... Why does toughness even include dodge chance? Toughness tooltip explicitly says: " The total amount of raw damage you can take.", but you are not taking any damage when you dodge.
99% dodge chance and 500k hp would give me an absurd amount of toughness, yet without armor and res I would be one-shotted by every white mob.


Dodge is factored into toughness as it is a factor when taking the 'total damage directed at you required to kill you', when looking at that damage as several hits. Your dodge % will apply to those hits.

However, when looking at this incoming damage as 1 hit, it doesn't really work, as the dodge gives either infinite ehp or close to 0 ehp.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Life per sec will have a bigger effect on a low life character than a high life character with the same ehp, period.

A damage spike that kills the former will kill the latter. However a damage spike that kills the latter will not necessarily kill the former.

Honestly, it isn't rocket surgery.


I know what OP is saying, and I agree. Healing is better if you have less life pool. In fact, if I were playing softcore, I would do exactly what OP is saying.

However, in HC, this is a bad idea. Would you roll away 750 vit for 100 all resist? Why not take both? That's all I'm saying.


It isn't a case of 'why not take both'.
Of course you would take both.

Nobody is saying don't take vit.
It's more like, if you have 100 stat points to use up, those stat points can be better weighted towards lower life with high armour and resists than high life with lower armour and resists.

The balance, the best ratio, the highest survival ratio, is more weighted away from vit than your average player realises or utilises.

Of course should you be given another 50 stat points for a total of 150, spending those in vit would indeed give a higher ehp and survival than the well balanced 100 stat points case. That isn't being challenged and is rather irrelevant.
Edited by Anuhart#2131 on 4/20/2014 4:02 AM PDT
So you're saying you agree with OP.
04/18/2014 12:41 PMPosted by Attalus
Ehh, really?

I'm wondering if you didn't make a mistake (I'm honestly wondering as I haven't tested it out so I just wanna make sure).

While I do agree that a tougher life point is a better life point, I have problem when you say that :

With 5M toughness and 200k hp you lose 20k life per second
With 5M toughness and 500k hp you lose 50k life per second

I don't get this part as if this was true, It would actually serve absolutely no purpose to increase life pool and vitality would be completely useless.

Didn't you mean something like

5M Toughness / 200k hp : 20k life per sec damage makes healing sufficient to be immortal
While :
2M toughness / 500k hp : 50k life per sec damage, which with 20k heal/sec would make you die, as you said in a few sec?


not really. no.
OP is right he just didn't explain the why all too well...

what he should be saying is that given equal toughness, one made up of mitigation (res all + armour) with a low hp pool makes your healing far far more effective than that same toughness value made up of VIT.

5mil toughness is made up of mitigation stats and you have 200k hp
VS
that 5mil being made up of VIT and having 500k hp.

even though toughness is even the guy stacking vit will be taking more damage per hit. the outcome being that the Life regeneration cant keep up.
they guy stacking mitigation with less hp will be taking much smaller hits even tho they both have 5mil toughness. in this scenario its far far easier for the regeneration to out heal the damage intake.

its not about having more or less HP its about the toughness value being made up of vit instead of mitigation. the key being to having enough mitigation for your regeneration to be able to keep up with the damage intake. HP doesn't matter. (granted you do want some to take some of the larger hits in the game! :P
Edited by Zoidburg#1405 on 4/20/2014 4:34 AM PDT
04/18/2014 10:24 AMPosted by Gazly
Let's do some math and assume we heal for 20,000 life per second and we are fighting monsters while taking 500,000 damage per second... How long will your character last?

Okay, I'm down. Let's do it.

1. 5,000,000 Toughness with 500,000 life pool
The enemy does 500,000 damage per second which is 1/10 of your toughness, so that means each second, those monsters are hitting you for 50,000 life. we are healing at 20,000 life per second, so we are at a net loss of 30,000 life per second.
In this case, we will survive for 16.67 seconds.
not too bad huh?

Okay. I'm totally with you so far.

2. 5,000,000 Toughness with 200,000 life pool
Again, same as above... the enemies damage us for 500,000 damage which is 1/10 of our toughness... That means these monsters are hitting us for 20,000 life per second.


Wait wait wait a minute. What? How on earth did you get that? (Underlined for emphasis).
The numbers and the math in these two situations are IDENTICAL up to this point, but you come up with entirely different numbers for the damage per second done to the player?

Math doesn't work like that.
So if the above is actually true (as a Blue post seems to suggest it is), then what part of the equation is missing to make it true?

Edit - Ninja'd! Yeah, it dawned on me after a minute.
All is clear. Carry on. :)
Edited by TeHSchwann#1232 on 4/20/2014 5:47 AM PDT
The mitigation percentages that separates the same Toughness value but two different HP pools.

Edit - To further explain:

Example 1 uses a mitigation percentage of 90%
Example 2 uses a mitigation percentage of 96%

Yes, the difference is substantial once it reaches that percentage of less damage taken.
Edited by Senkaon#1858 on 4/20/2014 5:50 AM PDT
After I started to build in a direction similar to this(low hp, high regen) it really changed how the game played(Back in 1.0X).

Now the gearing is more restrictive and will not allow for as much tankiness(Paragons can pick up the slack to an extent).

Basically, I used to run high vitality thinking it was the way to go but after I stopped getting vitality on my gear(most of the time it had 0 on it in its entirety) in lieu of mitigation, I did not get killed hardly ever. This was MP7+ with 16k HP. 3k regen per second with that little HP and huge defense made it very fun. Killing was a bit slower but I didn't mind. :)

Edit: I also want to comment on the hilarious amount of Vitality items come with now. With the limited amount of stats it seems like it's the "best way to go", since if you stack another one with it you could be giving up something truly crucial. This may not bother me so much but it really does not leave much room for customization.
Edited by Arcknight#1442 on 4/20/2014 6:02 AM PDT
This is common sense....
04/19/2014 07:16 PMPosted by Senkaon
It kind of depends, but generally Life per Hit is the most useful Healing stat consistently, because its effectiveness at healing is based on your attacks per second (APS) and your skills' coefficients. Of course, there are some exceptions... (See: Demon Hunters and Brooding, where I'd actually want to stack Vit to at least some degree, or at least swap it in against LpS rolls)
LoH does 2 things when you lag out or get caught frozen or walled in : Jack and Squat. Regen LPS is where it's at.
04/20/2014 06:36 AMPosted by Rav1n
04/19/2014 07:16 PMPosted by Senkaon
It kind of depends, but generally Life per Hit is the most useful Healing stat consistently, because its effectiveness at healing is based on your attacks per second (APS) and your skills' coefficients. Of course, there are some exceptions... (See: Demon Hunters and Brooding, where I'd actually want to stack Vit to at least some degree, or at least swap it in against LpS rolls)
LoH does 2 things when you lag out or get caught frozen or walled in : Jack and Squat. Regen LPS is where it's at.


I actually addressed that later in this thread, but I'll put this here for your readability.

04/20/2014 12:26 AMPosted by Senkaon
Actually, the big thing I hear about concerning HC mitigation nowadays here and there is people stacking enough mitigation and LpS to be able to stand in practically anything and not die (given the proper difficulty of course), which naturally helps with lagging/DCing.

(Knowing this, would I still build in HC? Probably not, but that's more a playstyle choice.)


So, yes, I suppose I should clarify:

SC, LpH is generally nicer.
HC, LpS is generally more mandatory.
I understand what you are saying, and I have actually learnt this when playing Eve Online. It is possible to reduce your damage taken to the point where it can be easily healed through. But things are not that simple.

1) First of all, I find that you do not have the luxury of stacking that much all resist/armor and life regen. 1 stat of life regen or all resist/armor means 1 less dps stat. And in T3 that I am currently doing, I have already stacked as much dps stats as I can and I can only barely kill the Butcher in T4 when soft enraged happened.

You just do not have the luxury to give up any dps stats to experiment with a defensive build. You need all the dps you can get, and can only spare a few for defense.

2) Second of all, using your explanation, in theory you can ignore vitality and just reduce your damage through all resist and armor, then heal through with life regen. I tried it briefly in RoS, but I find that if I reduce my total life from 300k to 200k, I died more often.

It is just not possible to reduce that much damage through armor and all resists. The damage enemies do in higher Torment levels is simply too much. Even if you can, I would like to see you try that for Malthael.

So I find that yes your theory is sound, and I actually used that strategy to great effect in vanilla D3 to keep Witch Doctors pets alive.

But ideally, you just stack enough vitality and all resists/armor to survive a few hits from elites and bosses, then you run out of "fire".
Then you focus the rest of the stats into dps.
Edited by Peter#1403 on 4/20/2014 7:38 AM PDT
What is the ideal life pool size in T6 for a Crusader? I am not sure how much monsters hit for on average in T6.
@Peter:

Well yes; some posts stated the notion that you should pick an HP pool number you're comfortable with and go from there. It all comes down to how well you can make use of your Healing and non-standard sources of mitigation (See: Shields, Skills that Escape or Heal), really.

It's just possible to do more with less, especially if vit and RA/Armor are competing in a roll. Of course, if you want more DPS, this doesn't really matter at all. If you can kill before they kill you, it generally doesn't become an issue. Probably why Shady wanted to kill themselves earlier; glass cannons are built for a particular purpose, and Wizards lend extremely well to the idea of avoiding the matter altogether.

@Th3D1rtSt4R:

Ideal life pool? I can't say. I know that before 2.0.4 (which introduced the +15% less damage taken buff for Crusaders), I was able to tank T6 trash with mostly non-legendaries and a really good block rate.

For reference, here is some data I compiled on the first enemy in the game, the brainless Risen, for public viewing:

http://pastebin.com/8E14ijis

I should probably mention that the results require reworking to properly include melee% mitigation calculation before blocking, as well as independent application of LpH and LpS after Renewal.
Edited by Senkaon#1858 on 4/20/2014 10:21 AM PDT
04/20/2014 03:55 AMPosted by Anuhart
Dodge is factored into toughness as it is a factor when taking the 'total damage directed at you required to kill you', when looking at that damage as several hits. Your dodge % will apply to those hits.

However, when looking at this incoming damage as 1 hit, it doesn't really work, as the dodge gives either infinite ehp or close to 0 ehp.


I get your point; however, I still find it quite misleading since the dodge chance is purely "accidental" and all the other stats in tooltip are those that are not based on chance (life, armor, res, dmg reduction). In that case why doesn't the toughness take into consideration a chance to block for example? (unless it does but is missing in the tooltip).
TL;DR:

Get a lot of AR and ARMOR and worry more about healing stats than how much life you have.
04/20/2014 10:06 AMPosted by ThySerpent
04/20/2014 03:55 AMPosted by Anuhart
Dodge is factored into toughness as it is a factor when taking the 'total damage directed at you required to kill you', when looking at that damage as several hits. Your dodge % will apply to those hits.

However, when looking at this incoming damage as 1 hit, it doesn't really work, as the dodge gives either infinite ehp or close to 0 ehp.


I get your point; however, I still find it quite misleading since the dodge chance is purely "accidental" and all the other stats in tooltip are those that are not based on chance (life, armor, res, dmg reduction). In that case why doesn't the toughness take into consideration a chance to block for example? (unless it does but is missing in the tooltip).


No, blocking is not factored into Toughness, so it has to be calculated separately by hand on how much it helps. This goes for both block chance and block amount.

Honestly, I don't know why Dodge is factored into Toughness but not blocking. Kind of annoying, really.
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