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I think it would be cool to have Rifts that tell stories and put you into positions you normally don't get to be in. Example: Take on the role of Diablo as he destroys Tristram (objective based, so you'd have to capture Deckard Cain and put him in a cage, Kill wirt and fill him with gold and wooden legs like a pinata, corrupt Griswold and in general just slay innocent villagers).
This probably won't be seen, but what makes rifts boring to me is when I see the same ol' bounty/ladder acts in my supposedly unique randomly generated Rift level. Especially when it's not just textures, but it's just a copy of the level. For example that very large desert like level with all the weapon racks from one of the acts is constantly being played in rifts.
Another thing is I noticed rifts based on the level textures are obvious to where the exists are located. I want a sense of exploration and that randomly generated procedural dungeon feel. I want every rift to feel unique, I want rifts to have mixed textures and lighting. I want rifts to feel fun and unique every rift I play.
Last point I want to touch up on is rift density, some levels makes it feel like I fight a couple monsters -> wait -> fight a couple monsters -> wait -> hit a pack of elites -> wait -> find more elites -> wait more. I want to be fighting the moment i enter and leave a rift level. AKA dungeon insanity.
Does the atmosphere in a Rift influence how exciting or not exciting it feels? If yes, what Rift environments feel exciting to you? And which ones don’t?
Yes atmosphere does play a part the darker more mysterious ones are good sometimes but map repetition could be changed possibly with some rift only maps (introduced once in a while via patches).
Do certain monster groups feel more or less engaging?
Yes but sometimes it seems like your fighting the same mobs/elites with the same affixes over and over (out of 3-4 types per map) perhaps some rift lord's or other rift related monsters could be added.
Are there any mechanics from other parts of the game that you feel would make Rifts feel more exciting? If yes, what are those mechanics?
Kill x amount of monsters in a certain time for a reward would be nice, maze maps where you have to escape the rift before a time rift boss(es) peruses you through the map would be ace.
What's the most noticeable difference between a “boring” Rift and an “exciting” Rift for you?
Mob density some are just plain boring as the white monsters dont give much loot anymore, and reward to effort put in maybe add some rift only items (new colour - Purple (better than legendarys with more affixes - it is a loot finding game drop rate could be very rare though?) which would allow your character to progress through the tiered rift system blizzard are working on.
In my opinion rifts get boring when they become rote. A challenge once in a while is great. What if every 50 elite kills a "super elite" meaning an elite with all possible affixes spawns and when said super is defeated you get an automatic targeted legendary drop.
Personally, I enjoy the dungeon-type ones the most: the torture chamber from Act 1, any of the caves, the barracks from Act 1.
Any monsters that run away are obviously a lot more annoying than ones that run up all in your stuff and line up to die.
Something (or even a monster) that spawn other monsters and begin to crowd you if you don't take them down fast enough. The Cursed Chests/Shrines and skeleton spawner-bros are a good example. Basically anything that imparts danger and makes the player about to die if they aren't careful or don't pile on the damage fast enough (without the straight-up danger from Waller/Vortex/Arcane Sentry/Teleporter or something).
Everyone's probably going to say "more loot/more elites/more monsters". Once the novelty of randomized enemies/tilesets/lighting wears off, a rift basically feels like teleporting to random areas of the game every time you exit a level. It's a cool idea but there's nothing super special in them aside from the rift-only shrines.
The oddball stuff -- the super-long hallways, the cows, ponies or Whimseyshire tileset -- shake things up. Ridiculous monster combinations like a level full of summoners also breaks the monotony. Maybe throw in a level that's just a random boss fight. Or combine a boss with some random monsters. Something really ridiculous.
Nearly all of the boss runs people did in Diablo 2 were fun because there was a big pay-off at the end with shinies, as well as the increased danger as you got closer to the boss (assuming someone didn't just teleport to the boss and open a portal). As long as it's not rote memorization, I'd stay engaged. People are not encouraged to play higher difficulties because the reward is crap if you don't kill fast enough so we stay playing the difficulties we can steamroll, and then it becomes muscle memory.
I would argue rifts aren't exciting because there's no increased tension and the reward for all the effort just isn't there. It's just waiting for a bar to fill up and nothing happens as that bar gets closer to being filled or as you go farther into the rift. Then once the bar fills up and the guardian is killed, it's back to Kadala*. I'd like a much increased legendary chance from that damn guardian if it takes so much work to get to him/her/it. I was expecting rifts to act like boss runs from Diablo 2 and they don't.
*The blood shards are a poor reward because the legendary chance from Kadala is so low. It mimics the ridiculous drop rate in vanilla: so many items, none of them good. I would also argue Kadala as a source of loot is poor. People were able to dump tons of money onto Gheed because gold had no other use. You can't do that with blood shards and besides, so many of the items are just rares. And then every time I get a legendary from her it just seems to be a glorified rare that instantly becomes a Forgotten Soul. (These kind of legendaries seriously have to go.)
Once you do enough of them, Rifts have the same monotony as Diablo 2 boss runs but without the items at the end, just an IOU. Make rifts slightly harder to spawn (10 fragments?), increase the difficulty of the guardian and drastically increase its legendary drop chance. Or just make us fight a random boss from the game as the rift guardian.
PS: I'm probably talking out of my !@#.
Edited by Domiran#1424 on 4/22/2014 6:55 PM PDT
Posted by Grimiku
Thank you so much for listening to the player base. Seeing all of the changes you have already instituted since release has been so inspiring; its the dev team we've wanted since vanilla launched. The game is in a wonderful state, is so fun to play, and can only go up from here. That said, I'll answer these rift questions.
My favorite rifts are the ones that are pitch black. I'm talkin' zero light radius. It is incredibly scary, and makes every step risky. Am I going to bump into three e's at once? Do I stumble across a goblin? Very cool. Otherwise the maps themselves are not very exciting. I LOVE the random music playlist, however, as it keeps it interesting and can make the maps feel eerie. D2 was so iconic for me because of the music, the gothic environments, and the brutal/scary/claustrophobic zones that genuinely startled me (turning a dark corner and BAM there is a scary pack). The open levels are less scary to me, but fun because they are usually jam packed with monsters and allow some strategic retreats. I imagine playing a rift that starts in a wide hallway and slowly gets more and more narrow, and darker and darker, in which monsters can spawn behind you and flank you, so you never know what to expect. Or a rift where you are in an "elevator" (think the battering ram) and you have to fight on a small platform and enemies keep dropping from the ceiling Streets of Rage style.
Monster groups that can flee indefinitely are the absolute worst. I'm sure Morlu Incinerators have come up around the office, because their teleport cooldown is just ridiculously low. Other monster groups can be super frustrating to play against because of their unrestricted, seemingly perfect CC rate (I'm lookin' at you Armaddon's with your undodgeable stun, and you Executioners with your tiny short hop that stuns for like 2 seconds, and you Grotesque with your belly bump knockback that can chain with other, white grotesques). I love the idea of CC but it should be avoidable, like the hammer smash on the Dark Beserkers; it should force you into making a choice - do I stand here and take this increased damage and CC and try to get in a few more hits to kill the guy before it procs? Or do I avoid it and go back in later. Not like the Armaddon where its a guaranteed CC if you get too close. Whites should also not be able to CC me as effectively/often as elites. I am the hero that slew every evil lord of hell that cam my way, why am I getting chain bumped by a bunch of fatties stuffed with worms/imps? Similarly, with the increased # of blue elites that can spawn, certain affixes are just outrageous (Frozen, holy smokes) and with the upp'd number of monsters that can spawn with arcane affixes with a yellow (15 beams on the ground?!) there should be some upper limit instituted to give players a chance. At least in hardcore this feels scary and unreasonable.
Mechanics - There are no dynamic events, there are no mini-quests, there are no cursed chests lying around to make each map unique or random in its uniqueness. Why not throw in some cool mini-quests with small rewards? Plop the Jar of Souls down in the middle of a rift, when you activate it, boom walls appear that dont let you out until you kill the mobs, and you have an increased chance for a leg item if you clear a certain number of monsters/waves/elite packs. That would feel awesome and make you feel like you've hit the lottery when you stumble across it. Also I feel like something I'd LOVE is the ability to tune the difficulty of the rift from the get go. I go to activate a rift and I can choose from a list: double exp, but double mob health, double leg drop chance but triple mob health and damage. How cool would that be? Think Torchlight 2 and PoE for being able to customize each rift to keep it exciting and tweak however you would like. Also rewarding smart play would feel nice - I love hardcore because people MUST play carefully and think smart and brings CC. Make rifts have different conditions that reward fewer deaths, or only allow you to progress with a certain number of party deaths (if you have under 10 you get to keep going for higher reward from rift boss, if you've exceeded ten, you fight rift boss and exit, something like that with some tuning obviously to prevent abuse). I also like in Act 4 those little mini dungeons with dynamic environments (like that pool where you step on tiles and the Destroyers launch down, and you work toward a respl. chest); maybe more things like that could be neat?
Reward - PLEASE adjust the blood shard rate according to the level Torment you complete the rift on. It feels terrible to sludge through a T2 rift, get zero leg drops, no forgotten soul, and then get a measly 45 blood shards. Why ever turn up the difficulty? I get more drops tearing through more monsters quicker on lower difficulties it feels like. The balance between chance for drop and how quickly you can kill just isn't quite tuned out yet. I'd like to see even a bit more reward legendary wise in rifts. I've played many, many hours on my Wiz and its nearly impossible to get an upgrade. I've also seen only 3 set items and every single one was the Firebird Source. It seems nearly impossible for my casual friends to ever hope to get a set item, and frustrates them when the reward doesn't seem equivalent to the effort put in. Bounties are really fun because they give you a cache, because they vary each game, because you can stumble upon cursed chests and goblins and the such while you're completing them. The exp also feels nicer and higher when completing bounties. It should never be the case that you get more legendaries from normal cache farming than running torment level rifts, but at current it feels that way. Caches also feel cool because there are unique items that can spawn by act. Why not make rift-only legendaries; or make rift-boss specific legendaries so when I see Rime for the 50th time I get stoked because he has a chance to drop boots that give me increased cold damage, or a cold aura that reduced cold resistance of enemies around me in 30 yards.
Boring = terrible density. Exciting = great density, good reward, feeling of risk/reward.
Competitive aspect = ladders. Post rift completion times. Post most monsters killed in a T level rift with no deaths. All of these things. Reward characters who participate in races and events. Most rifts completed. Warframe does this super well - community wide events where we all work toward a common goal (the rifts are overflowing! the US server must complete 1million rifts in 5 days and everyone will get 10 caches with increased legendary drop chance! etc.etc).
I'd also love the opportunity to give feedback on different classes/elemental damage, etc. I love this game, I can't believe how far it has come, appreciate your hard work and willingness to ask us what we want and implement it, and am so excited to see where it will go.
- remove freeze gates in pandemonium fortress for rifts, they suck
- cursed chest events in rifts
- beside champion packs and the rift guardian, maybe one-two additional purple ones each level (from bounties, so there is a chance to get some legendary crafting mats)
- some maps are too dark, but that's personal taste...maybe implementing an option that they can't be too dark or something like that
- rift only map tiles
- split act4 fallen angels and act5 anarch reapers, so they can't be in the same level, I don't want them to be nerfed, but this combination appears way too often and they're too annoying
- the rift guardian isn't rewarding enough on higher torment stages. Buff blood shards to drop always 40-50 @t1, 50-60 @t2, 60-70 @t3 and so on. Maybe higher legendary drop chance instead of forgotten soul. Something like 10% jumps, so there is a 60% chance for ppl able to do them on t6
Edited by Tempster#2652 on 4/22/2014 7:00 PM PDT
1. The atmospheres that feel exciting are the ones that you would expect to feel exciting. To be more clear, blood stained fog and the like are hard to sleep through. It's worth noting that regardless of atmosphere, getting a near barren rift with like 5 floors before you've encountered enough monsters to start the boss fight is a horrible and boring experience (and you can assume that the opposite makes for a more engaging rift).
2. This is somewhat related to the first question. It's not a matter of what I'm killing as much as it's a matter of having something to kill. I've been through too many rifts where I'm walking as much as I'm killing; that's boring.
3. Sub event quests would be interesting, if they're completely optional.
4. As I said in my response to the first question, the difference between a boring and an exciting rift typically comes down to monster count per floor. When I enter a rift, I expect that I'm going to be killing things left and right with very little downtime in between. Some rifts provide this experience, and the rifts which do not nearly cause me recreate a game and just start a new rift. I'd rather throw away 5 fragments than complete a rift with barely any monster packs per floor.
Here's a blue that has earned my respect.
Gonna be more than a little bit annoyed if after 65 pages of players nearly unanimously telling you that rifts with low density are bad, nothing is done about it. Given the choice between "exploring" a pandemonium rift and fighting 5 zombies every 10 minutes, and not playing at all, I'd choose the latter. It's a sure sign of bad design when it makes more sense to forgo the 5 keys you spent to get in the rift and go out and run more bounties than it does to sit there and "explore" and "be immersed".
Some people probably won't be happy with the density until every level is covered wall to wall with monsters, their framerate drops to just above unplayable and every time you use an ability, you get a 100-monster Slaughter bonus.
...can you guys make a rift out of this, please? :)
Edited by Domiran#1424 on 4/22/2014 7:00 PM PDT
I think the most fun rifts right now are the large maps, either open areas like cemetary levels, or well structured indoor areas like the prison level. They can get very chaotic and fun, especially in multiplayer games.
The least exciting type of map are very linear maps. The cramped quarters make combat pretty boring. Occasionally you get a crypt tile and a map that's like one long corridor. Not very exciting. Same goes for the sewer maps and the pandemonium fortress levels.
Arguably the worst thing that can happen in a rift is being forced to go look for monsters to kill. Really breaks the flow in bad way.
Don't get me wrong, variation is definitely good, but I think the latter category of maps needs some form of change to be as much fun as the open areas. Maybe add some other form of gameplay mechanic? Like cursed chests/pylons, or mini-quests from the game that "live" in the same tileset. Or for highly linear maps, maybe like clear the entire level in 2 minutes and a couple of resplendent chests appear at the exit. Another idea would be having levels with special rules. Like this entire map is missile dampening. Even if one or two of these were to be hilariously broken and make some things very OP, the random nature of rifts makes it pretty hard to abuse.
I think some combinations of monsters can really detract from a rift. Like today, I played a rift that was an open area chock full of corrupted angels/anarchs (I don't remember which). Very irritating to deal with. We fought two packs of elites that were extremely strong because their tackle attack combined with large numbers acted like walls, except unlike normal control effects, they obviously didn't ever wear off. I think their affix was arcane plagued frozen extra health (or something along those lines, there was at least 2 packs involved). Lots of deaths in that rift level :-/
There are also some monsters that have A LOT of health. They can be a bit annoying to have to grind down. I don't think this is a very big deal though. A minor nuisance at best.
Finally, some monsters just don't work well in large groups. Mainly monsters with very high burst damage, especially in combination with champions that have abduct and jail-style abilities. Mallet lords are a good example of this. You know what happens when you get hit by 6 mallet lords at the same time? Splat! You're a red stain on the ground. This was never a problem in vanilla D3, because they spawned very sparsely. But it happens in rifts.
Edited by FireEscape#1996 on 4/22/2014 7:08 PM PDT
I don't understand how this isn't clear yet. Diablo 3 is 100% based on loot. Nothing more nothing less. That is the sole objective of the game. Once the ability to interact with other players with that loot was removed so was the excitement. There is literally no point to having good gear now, all it does is let you farm more gear for yourself that you can't trade, can't sell, can't use to help friends. The excitement from Diablo used to come from loot rolls, now that don't matter so there is no excitement.
Hey, just thought of something. Can we get bonuses for killing all monsters on a level? Like, increased damage, increased movement speed, higher crit rate, faster health regen, faster resource regen? Or new rift-only shrines with effects that last until you die and can stack with other shrine effects. "Chance to spawn elite monsters every a chest is opened" would be fun. (I would also like to see Monster and Gem shrines brought back as they were from Diablo 2. Just saying.)
Increased monster health/damage (something small) would be neat to offset our new-found bonus!
I know you guys were planning increasingly-harder rifts, but hey... :)
I was a little worried about buying the expansion due to how poorly the game was designed and administered at launch but i figured I would give the game a second chance and I did what I found this time was that there is effort to make the game more appealing but here is the thing that hasn't changed unlike the previous game that has been played for over 10 years now; that one almost never has updates and if it is updated the changes are very minor and don't affect game play I still feel like this game is unfinished and will never be finished with all the major updates and different level caps I get that same feeling from WoW and it's why I don't like it AT ALL.
The point I am trying to make is rifts are not fun I feel like they should be removed or not focused as much, don't try to make me feel like the only good way I will get good gear is by doing rifts I like to have a variety of things to do.
Along with a couple other failed attempts to balance things out example BoA "so we could increase drop rates" honestly I would much rather get less drops and get the ones I need then trade for what I want. But this is a whole different topic where people get very sensitive and some people are just flaming their WoWness.
I might get this game on console it depends on if it is way different then the boring pc version I have been playing for the past month almost.
This game is almost as bad as microsoft testing stuff on our computers and screwing them up that is probably the best comparison I could think of this game to microsoft computer software.
Over the next 2 years while the dev team is fixing these problems I will be playing other games, I would hope they don't even start developing an expansion it would be a waste of their time and money for the poor souls that buy it.
Edited by JonOwns#1956 on 4/22/2014 7:10 PM PDT
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