Diablo® III

Why 2 X 1 handers?

Hi everyone, I decided to level my DH, and take a break from my Wizard. I noticed most DH's using 2 X 1 handed crossbows, rather than 1 crossbow and 1 quiver. Just wondering why that is. Thanks!
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Because paper DPS is awesome.

However, if you have the gear to support it, such that paper DPS = eDPS x skill multiplier... then yes, paper DPS really is awesome. Certain builds like Cindercoat/Pride's Fall/Reaper Wraps/Punishment CA builds can support it.

If you noticed, 1 handed crossbows can easily go up to 2700++ DPS due to the 1.6 attack speed multiplier on the flat bonuses, while 2 handers go up to 2500++ only. Then you have to factor in the emerald at 130% ChD versus 10% CC on quiver.

But only if you can support it.
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Most DH use 2x Handbows because they can stack extra Critical Hit Damage with the extra socket. If you have naturally high critical hit chance before quiver, it can be more advantageous to get that extra bump for higher numbers. In comparison, quiver gives extra stats and the potential for extra % Damage on a particular skill, like Cluster Arrow, which can be a tremendous advantage as well. The extra Legendary affixes, like on the Danetta's bows, are nice to have, and can be combined with others. I have a K'Mar Tenclip and a Danetta's Revenge equipped on one of my DH while I have a Helltrapper + Bombadier's Rucksack on a second. Both are fantastic in their own rites, but for different builds.
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its not always that case.. i have almost every 1h in the game and im using kindershot + quiver more sheet and edps
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on my alt DH, I DW for calamity MfD and nat's 3 or 4pc. Otherwise I probably wouldn't~
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=( your alt has better gear than me.
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You also get the 15% attack speed DW bonus. Mainly though it's for the 2nd socket I'd say.
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Huh?

If I had a kindershot, I'd probably use that.

But we do try our best with what we have....it so happens I can deal a little more damage with 2 guns.
And its so cool...
Edited by dawgiestyle#1127 on 4/21/2014 10:13 PM PDT
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I go for 2xbow because I couldn't roll +CA dmg on my quiver. If I can, I will definitely go for 1xbow and +CA quiver with only exception of slayer+calamity
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- Stacking CHC/CHD got so easy after RoS. It directly affect paper-dps which might be the reason...
- DH is the only one who can wield Hand crossbow. Make us feel somewhat unique while holding it.

I use all bow/xbow/1h/DW depends on mood and oracle given by RNGesus. Right now I use DW to test out how helltrapper does in real field, but in T3+ area I still carry xbow with me.

Btw... paper dps wise, indeed some 1h like Natalya can easily go for 2700+ dps. Although that's just because Natalya comes with guaranteed socket and %damage affix, leaving us choice to reroll elemental damage into black damage for even better result. Craftable lv70 bow/xbow can go for 2600 or even 2700+ dps as well so don't worry too much about their raw damage.
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I have a krider with 24xx, a 2h xbow with 24xx, and 2 1h's with 26xx.

All have sockets and dex, one of the 1h has ias, rest do not.

I have a quiver with ~550 dex, crit 10, cluster 15.

The krider has its place for kiting with frost arrow, but its per hit damage is similar to the 1h's but at a notably slower rate.

The xbow is more consistently high than the 1h's, but their peaks are quite close thanks to the extra gem, and the 1h are muuuuuch faster.

In the end the 1h's kill fastest, so that's what I roll with. The krider is nice for kiting, and the xbow has 750 vit and my quiver 10% hp, so I might occasionally pop one of them on for survivability, but very rarely.
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It is mostly to pad sheet DPS or to win on diabloprogress. Natalya's has some static rolls that are very good. Another huge reason is wearing Natalya's Slayer with the boots and RoRG for the 3 piece bonus (7 crit chance). Calamity is obviously nice for the free Mark of Death. I haven't received either but I believe that a nice 2H Crossbow will kill elites and bosses faster and more efficiently. Chanon Bolter has some nice rolls and has the potential to roll some seriously high damage.
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Actually I don't quite understand where the 'Two 1h's are more DPS' comes from. Please no anecdotes about Crit and CHD and so on, here I took a look at ingame numbers from my own setup for reference,

Without Sharpshooter,
1h + quiver (as in my profile): 1,260,051
1h + 1h (I have a second 1h just as good):1,242,534

1h + quiver in this case not only puts out more 'sheet dps', it also has an extra 700 vit as well as the Cluster Arrow skill affix. At minimum, dual wielding needs to put out more damage than any quiver setup just to compensate and break even for the loss of these stats.

There are some marginal benefits to dual wielding however, single shot crit damage is higher which will mean you get slightly more utility out of the Ambush passive for instance. Too much to cover in one post so I'll just leave it at that.

Now, with Sharpshooter,
1h + quiver: 2,134,968
1h + 1h: 2,559,490

These are closer to the numbers I am expecting to see, the free crit from Sharpshooter greatly complements a dual wielding setup as you have an excess of CHD from having an extra emerald, and those two stats scale off each other very well. So here, DPS wise, you have 2,134,968 sheet DPS and 15% Cluster Arrow, versus 2,559,490 DPS by itself, much closer of a comparison.

I stress that this is at max Sharpshooter stacks though, to look at it another way I need to be all the way at 100% crit just for dual wield to break even due to more advantageous scaling with its excess CHD. You might say (from the numbers in my case only) that the power level of dual wield is inferior to single wielding at an unbuffed state, but catches up the more you allow Sharpshooter to stack.
Edited by Myon#1319 on 4/22/2014 6:28 AM PDT
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It's not as simple as two 1 handers beats a 2 hander and a quiver.

Most 2 handers don't have extremely valuable bonuses. People are basing this on Natalya's Slayer and Calamity. You recieve 250 Dex and 7 CC from the Natalyas. You receive a 20% damage boost from Calamity and free up a skill slot.

Natalya's always rolls a socket, a %dmg roll and a dex roll. Because of this people can roll the dmg to a high physical roll for super high DPS. This makes their sheet DPS much higher. Combine that with the Natalya's set bonuses and you have some serious sheet increases.

I believe that an excellent rolled Chanon Bolter (10% dmg with high physical roll) and an excellent quiver will have more effective DPS than comparable 1H combos but will have lower sheet DPS.
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04/21/2014 08:53 PMPosted by Calex
You also get the 15% attack speed DW bonus. Mainly though it's for the 2nd socket I'd say.

Anyone with a quiver has 20% ias...it's ONLY for the 2nd socket.
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04/22/2014 06:12 AMPosted by Myon
Actually I don't quite understand where the 'Two 1h's are more DPS' comes from. Please no anecdotes about Crit and CHD and so on, here I took a look at ingame numbers from my own setup for reference,

Without Sharpshooter,
1h + quiver (as in my profile): 1,260,051
1h + 1h (I have a second 1h just as good):1,242,534

1h + quiver in this case not only puts out more 'sheet dps', it also has an extra 700 vit as well as the Cluster Arrow skill affix. At minimum, dual wielding needs to put out more damage than any quiver setup just to compensate and break even for the loss of these stats.

There are some marginal benefits to dual wielding however, single shot crit damage is higher which will mean you get slightly more utility out of the Ambush passive for instance. Too much to cover in one post so I'll just leave it at that.

Now, with Sharpshooter,
1h + quiver: 2,134,968
1h + 1h: 2,559,490

These are closer to the numbers I am expecting to see, the free crit from Sharpshooter greatly complements a dual wielding setup as you have an excess of CHD from having an extra emerald, and those two stats scale off each other very well. So here, DPS wise, you have 2,134,968 sheet DPS and 15% Cluster Arrow, versus 2,559,490 DPS by itself, much closer of a comparison.

I stress that this is at max Sharpshooter stacks though, to look at it another way I need to be all the way at 100% crit just for dual wield to break even due to more advantageous scaling with its excess CHD. You might say (from the numbers in my case only) that the power level of dual wield is inferior to single wielding at an unbuffed state, but catches up the more you allow Sharpshooter to stack.


I heavily promote this post.

There are so much false assumption that ANY 2x 1hand xbow will provide better DPS when this is never the case.
Like you pointed out, 1x 1hand xbow with a quiver will most likely always come out on top.
Only SPECIFIC exception is Natalya's Slayer + Calamity combination which I believe is BiS.
Edited by Iscariot#1538 on 4/22/2014 6:59 AM PDT
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@Iscariot +1 to promoting Myon

Too many people see 130% CHD and think >> Win - only under certain situations...
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Actually I have an almost perfect Kridershot + a solid Archfiend Arrow

http://s14.directupload.net/images/140422/v2de2dg3.jpg

I would loose to my current equip SheetDPS, 34 Discipline and Marked for Death due to Calamity.

I can't see how I will ever use Kridershot + Quiver.
I'm running right now Nat Slayer + Calamity + SoJ + 3er Nat Set
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Actually I have an almost perfect Kridershot + a solid Archfiend Arrow

I can't see how I will ever use Kridershot + Quiver.
I'm running right now Nat Slayer + Calamity + SoJ + 3er Nat Set

You also have two BIS 1h weapons that are one of the FEW exceptions where DW outperforms using a Quiver.
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Here's the post similar to the one OP brought up. Some of us from here including myself talked about this before if any of u guys r interested.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12504570873?page=1
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