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DISCLAIMER: This thread is super long!
This was something I thought about doing a while back before RoS shipped but chose not to (most players at the time understood why I post the way that I do). Now that there's a lot of newer posters and me becoming more active once again, I figure I'll provide what I feel is the most important part of the DH class ATM in my opinion, but first, let me state the devs philosophy on the DH as stated by Mr. Wyatt Cheng himself:
"The demon hunter is fundamentally a ranged class and, although I'm sure a lot of players will explore melee options, I fully intend to exploit this natural strength, focusing on one-handed pistol crossbows. These signature weapons are both versatile and powerful (and look incredibly badass). I can dual-wield them when I want to pump out extra damage or drop the off-hand crossbow and replace it with a shield when I need a little extra survivability. Pistol crossbows are also the fastest weapon in the game, and can be combined with a quiver for even more attack speed.
Whether one agrees with the devs philosophy and how they designed the class can be debated, however one thing is certainly clear; they intended for the class to excel based on player knowledge and ability to micro and multi-task well to achieve. This is how the class is designed. I'll get back to this later.
The biggest issue currently that I see are the players that are playing the class. This does NOT mean that I don't want the class to excel, or think the class is perfect or I'm being "elitist", what I'm simply saying is that there's not enough people attempting to play the class as it was designed to, stated by the game devs themselves.
Well DiEoxidE, why do you find this so important? Because just like everyone here, I also have personal gripes and feels the class is not perfect (gasp!). The issue is that it's IMPOSSIBLE to know what the real issues of the class are and discuss them as a group, if not enough players are trying to tap into the potential of the DH, or bypassing learning the basics
This is where you see me spend the majority of my time posting, talking to players about the "basics" of DH and why it's important to learn the class thoroughly. Generally it's accepted by the players truly seeking for help to become better DH players, but others I get full on hate who feel they know everything there is to DH and that it's entirely blizzards fault. A typical conversation for those players goes like this:
"I can't keep mobs off of me, the DH sucks at CC and can't survive higher torment!"
*takes a look at spec*
It appears you're not running any crowd control. This is why mobs jump you. Perhaps caltrops?
"No, caltrops suck! Plus, I can't fit it in my build if you knew anything about DH"
So..... you can't fit "not dieing" into your spec? Something like caltrops would go a long way for you, it works well.
"It doesn't slow enough, and the area is too small! Mobs still get to me, you don't know what you're talking about!"
Well it's quite possible to place more than one caltrop if necessary. You can get a lot of disc on items, and with good placement, you can have control over the battle field to do whatever you please.
"LOL, positioning does nothing for damage. It doesn't matter where you are if they are all over you. This is why steady aim is garbage passive too!"
Ok.... this is definitely a L2P issue. Have you tried also stutter stepping so that you vastly lessen your chances at getting surrounded?
"What? Why the hell would I do that? kiting decreases my DPS because I have to move, stop being stupid"
..........Ok... I dunno what to tell you. Maybe the class isn't for you.
"Blizzard just needs to fix this stupid class. It's insane how limited the DH is and needs to go back to the drawing board and redesign the entire class. Barbs don't have to move, why do we?"
At this point, most of you either got it, or starting to get where I'm coming from so far. Lets look at it a different way with an analogy:
If construction worker would rather not follow the blueprints to build a structure, did not want to waste time measuring properly, and use whatever tools that's NOT listed in the plan to use, then that's fine, but can that person really complain when his structure lacks foundation, swaying back and forth, hazerous, doesn't even look like the blueprint photo, and took way longer than the other guy that CHOSE to follow the blueprint plans and use the tools best for the job?
Now, if that construction worker is proud of his.....well..... lump of metal, then so be it. If he had fun doing so and he's proud of it, that's all that matters, kudos to him. But the moment he decides to tell everyone that the plans suck (that he did not follow) and that the reason for his lump of metal is because the company is bad and that they should fix the blueprint he didn't even bother to understand, it just sounds silly. If that construction worker, no matter what, isn't finding it rewarding or fun, then maybe he should do something else, rather than pulling together all the other construction workers that also created "lumps of metal" in attempt to say "We're they all are having the same problems too!" Which does not add merit to their feedback at all. Are you getting where I'm coming from?
This is a significant issue because blizzard is NOT getting quality feedback about a class DESIGNED around micro and multi-tasking and knowledge when the majority of the complaints are from players not wanting to (again mostly by choice) learn the basics of playing a DH. If this is the case, how is it even remotely possible to reach the DH potential or even knowing what that potential really is?
I would LOVE to be able to talk about the more in depth DH stuff and provide feedback and discussion, but I really can't do that here much. For instance, I'd like to discuss HA, and how each of the HA runes are better the further you are off screen, while shatter shot HA is best at mid range and how to take advantage of this, however the majority of the player base would have no !@#$ing idea what I'm talking about. I'd love to talk about why I think the bola quiver instant explosion is bad design (outside of acid strike), and how stuff like huge bola stacking potential of imminent doom+sharpshooter+ambush is an extremely powerful combo with the right spender/player, but most players would think I'm talking crazy and if I made any threads like these, they would just die.
Why is this? Because this is advanced DH meta-game stuff, stuff that players instantly push aside because comprehending what's being said requires knowing/achieving the basics well, and getting into the true potential of a DH, something that players either just aren't interested in, or not attempting to reach like blizzard is wanting you to!
In summary, my long term goal (which may not be clear at times) has been to get the player base to better themselves as players (because there's a lot to the DH class), so that we CAN give blizzard the appropriate feedback to HELP the class get the changes it REALLY needs. Striving to first become better players also brings about more builds, more variety, and ultimately a better community in which we can be proud of. IF WE CAN DO THIS, WE CAN TRULY HELP THE DH CLASS IN ALL AREAS.
1. We exhaust all options available.
2. We show blizzard why their choice of balance is wrong (or right), and class comparisons may actually have some merit with more players getting into DH potential.
3. With accurate constructive feedback, we can get the changes we may really need.
Thanks for reading, and hopefully gave some insight as well as a better understanding of why I feel the root issue ATM is learning the class and tapping into it's potential. I'll end off with the last paragraph in Wyatt Cheng's quote.
Played well, I can dodge projectiles or get out of fires with little to no loss in DPS. The demon hunter can truly shine in the hands of a skilled player, but you need a good strategic sense to manage your resources responsibly, excellent micro to maximize your damage, and intimate knowledge of your skills to wreak maximum havoc on your enemies. "
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 5/8/2014 11:36 PM PDT
I respect the amount of time you put into this post, so I'll give you some feedback. I've always been quite the theorycrafter in various games, but always a casual player as I don't have that much time. With all games, developers are going to have general intentions with designs like you say. Sure, that's true. But when you release a design to the masses you start to see patterns and behavior that although weren't necessarily intended, aren't necessarily bad either.
It's just a path of least resistance effect combining with the law of large numbers. When you have a mass amount of players that are striving for similar goals within a set of guidelines and rules, the bulk of players will naturally find the best/easiest/most efficient way of accomplishing these goals regardless of original intentions of the game. They're are not going to adhere to a specific playstyle just because some strangers on the internet tell them it's the right way to play. Especially, when there are many different ways to complete the same goals. This can be said for anything in life. Metaphor: I need to change a lightbulb in the kitchen, but it's up high and I can't reach it. Well, i'm going to pull up a chair and stand on it, and change the bulb. Why? Because there ain't no way I'm walking all the way out to the garage for a ladder, when the same task can be done with a chair. Even though the chair was made to be sit on, and not made for changing light bulbs.
Additionally, a lot of players are not going to put in the amount of time needed to master the basics and fundamental design of a certain class, when it isn't really necessary to accomplish what they're trying to do. You/re going to have players that don't take the game that seriously and you cannot design a game solely for the hardcore min/maxing player. Well you can, but you're not going to be very successful as a business.
Bottom line, you can't just tell people they should be playing a certain way because you think that's how they should play it. It is up to the individual player to play the class how they want to. It's up the the player to be as knowledgeable about their class as they want. If these players you talk about have complaints because they're still trying to fit that square peg in the round hole, that's on them. It is up to Blizzard to decide if the feedback is a learn to play issue, or an actual problem with the design. If you want to play your character by adhering to Mr. Cheng's quote, then do it. Great! But that doesn't mean everyone needs to play the same way you do.
Edited by Subie#1291 on 5/8/2014 9:49 AM PDT
Being able to outgear content is one of the biggest road blocks to needing to learn the details of a game and/or class imo. Removing penalties for lack of awareness, skill, understanding makes it so many people will never need to discover the finer points of, in this case, the dh. Once bordom sets in, experimentation starts to occur, but even then it is usually done from a gearing standpoint that doesn't push understanding and/or becoming a better player. If the Yan pants didn't exist, I still probably wouldn't have taken the effort to become a better stepper. Not because I wouldn't have liked to, but because I didn't need to. I know it isn't everyone's idea of fun (stepping), but I love that these pants exist.
Once outgearing the content stops, the whining starts because there are people out there doing what they can't. With the same gear even. Skill? Understanding? No no no. That is crazy talk. I like the Bum Phillips quote along the lines of - He'll take his n beat urs and take urs n beat his. Some people are just really, really good/skilled. I'll just keep working at getting better myself. It's the only thing I have control over.
I don't know, I'm rambling now so I'll quit here.
Edit: And then Blizz takes away many players desire to put the effort into the non-faceroll content by destroying their loot efficiency. Fault isn't totally players in other words.
Edited by Aethillan#1948 on 5/8/2014 10:51 AM PDT
Hello, my dear. You do not know who I am, but I know you.
I am the worst of your personal demons, but you see me as a friend. You turn to me when you have nothing else, because I live in your heart. I am the one who forces you to endure. The one who prolongs your torment.
Edited by hmk21#1716 on 5/8/2014 11:25 AM PDT
He isn't so much insulting the player base as he is trying to open some eyes. If you picked the DH as your class you owe it to yourself to play it as well as you can, right? If you feel like you understand the class as well as he does, then obviously this thread doesn't apply to you. However, if you are stuck in T3 or below and thinking that the reason is because you picked a DH, then you should give him some credence.
Those with the willingness to be taught will learn and prosper.
@DiE has butted heads with some heavy hitters out there, and to me, you never come across as elitist. You have a passion for this class and exploring its limits and capabilities. In all kinds of builds and play styles.
Some of the best skill building session I've ever had were playin' with this guy. We theory craft in town, go out in the field and put it to action. Make some tweaks. Try new skills, new synergies. Even working in tandem. Facerolling? Sometimes. I share that same drive for "engaging" gameplay that DiE and other TPA clan members do. Like RedCell. One of the best times I remember slayin demons with these chaps Red was runnin his sticky trap build, I was runnin ID bolas and loading targets for the hidden damage mod from the skill that most people thought "Took too long to do any damage" and DiE was bringing the hurt with his Cold Suppressor build. We weren't timing a run or trying to be efficient. We were smashing demons.
Keep doin' what you're doin' @DiEoxidE.
Insulting the new comers? More like challenging them and calling them out. Be better players. Give meaningful feedback and actually experiment with the skills/builds you just instantly say "no it doesn't do enough % on paper so I don't try it." Read about the layered cake ^_^ and go out on the field and try some things out. Or take the lazy approach - watch a popstar streamer and try to copy it with subpar gear/skill/knowledge and cry all over the forums.
On the contrary. He is absolutely, by the very definition of the word, insulting the player. The OP repeatedly paints the typical DH player as stupid, stubborn, and immature. I don't disagree with you fundamentally. The problem I am pointing out is in the execution of the post. All of the insulting parts of the post are superfluous and the point he is trying to make, and in turn the action he is trying to elicit, could be made without putting everyone down in the process. I would argue it would be much stronger without it.
You read between the lines and gleaned the good from the post. You are probably someone who isn't likely his audience (stupid, stubborn, immature). Did he accomplish his goal? Almost certainly not. Based on the responses so far, literally no change has occurred or will likely occur in the foreseeable future. Nobody in his target audience has rallied behind his cause. Time wasted, IMO.
It's not a matter of if people should listen to him; it's a matter of if people will.
Edited by Daveaujus#1438 on 5/8/2014 12:30 PM PDT
I understand this. That's player choice. No one is forcing you to go get the ladder instead of using the chair (in that situation, i'd get the chair myself), however, it does not mean there are problems with the ladder/garage just because you simply chose to not take that route.
Again, that's a choice. What you stated only really applies to the DH (if you're looking to achieve) and not all classes. If you are not a person that likes putting in that time to master and pull out the DH potential, then there's 5 other classes one can play with an entirely different design philosophy. Almost all games follow this exact philosophy, with different guns, races, cars, classes, etc, where there's bound to be some that are harder than the others. I've done that in a few other games where I didn't feel like tapping into the meta-game with (such as FPS games) and just picked the easiest gun to kill people with. If I'm playing casually, I don't care about what pistols can or cannot do, I'm just gonna pick the gun easiest for me to play at the time (automatics) and not frustrate myself trying to kill players with a knife if I'm not going to invest time learning how to do it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Blizzard designed ONE class (the DH) to be tackled with skill, perfection and multi-tasking for achievement, thus would obviously be harder to play in the harder content. That's not bad design, that's an option for those that like the challenge and players are NOT forced to play the DH.
I'm not telling players how to play. I'm not telling players what builds they should use, which CC to use, which defensive skills to use etc.
I play the way blizzard designed the class to be played. Result? I have little to no issues getting through all content in the game with any spec I choose to come up with great results (doesn't mean I think DH is perfectly balanced). Makes sense right? If a player plays to the classes strengths, they do well.
Of course players don't have to do that. If a construction worker would rather not follow the blueprints to build a structure, did not want to waste time measuring properly, and use whatever tools that's NOT listed in the plan to use, then that's fine, but can that person really complain when his structure lacks foundation, swaying back and forth, hazerous, doesn't even look like the blueprint photo, and took way longer than the other guy that CHOSE to follow the blueprint plans and use the tools best for the job?
Now, if that construction worker is proud of his.....well..... lump of metal, then so be it. If he had fun doing so and he's proud of it, that's all that matters, kudos to him. But the moment he decides to tell everyone that the plans suck (that he did not follow) and that the reason for his lump of metal is because the company is bad and that they should fix the blueprint he didn't even bother to understand, it just sounds silly. If that construction worker, no matter what, isn't finding it rewarding or fun, then maybe he should do something else. You get what I'm saying?
I'm not telling anyone what they should do, I'm simply stating that if your goal is to achieve with the DH class, then it's best to play the classes strengths and learn the ins and out's of the class, the way the devs intended.
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 5/8/2014 1:29 PM PDT
I will say that my post is really long, but I believe my approach was clear, in the fact that I'm stating I feel the players are making the choice not to achieve. Here's a few early quotes.
what I'm simply saying is that there's not enough people attempting to play the class as it was designed to, stated by the game devs themselves.
This states that there should be more players striving to pull out the potential of the DH class.
This again, is stating that there are players that are simply choosing not to achieve.
Both of these quotes are found towards the beginning of the thread, and what I base the rest of the post on. It's very easy to take a look around the forums, especially general discussion forums and know that I'm just simply stating the truth about the state of the class. I didn't call anyone stupid, nor am I really insulting anyone, and I've probably spent more time offering aid to players who want to be better, asking for help, than most players here so it's not like I'm trying to disown the player base.
I'm aware that sometimes speaking the truth can potentially hurt feelings, but if the goal for those wanting the class to be better is universal all around, then we have know how to get there and possibly get those changes. It would be nice to see people read and understand the entirety of my post, and not just focus on the few lines that may have gotten under their skin. I did make a few edits though.
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 5/8/2014 1:25 PM PDT
I feel like I've said my piece and my words stand on their own. I don't wish to get into a long philosophical discussion to nowhere because neither of us will end up changing our position. Once you say "the truth hurts" then there's no going back from that. It's your position, but it's simply not as effective as other methods.
Which brings me to the biggest irony of them all.
You post asking people to put aside what they think they know and listen to you to become a better player.
I post asking you to put aside what you think you know and listen to me to become a better poster. Ironically, your response to me sounds a lot like those "stupid, stubborn, and immature" DH players who won't listen to you.
If you aren't willing to leave the rabbit hole yourself, why would you expect others to?
Curiouser and curiouser.
Let me start by saying I like you, your on my friend list, I respect your opinion.
But I didn't read any farther than the statement quoted. Wyatt is just as wrong as the "Great" new items/rewards they gave us. Wyatt's single minded view of the DH is just as misguided as all the other problems (with D3) that players are screaming about.
Wyatt is just like the rest of us, he has his own opinion on the class. The problem with the DH is that were being forced to play the DH the way "Wyatt" wants to play it. All of us don't want to play the way he wants us to play, and we shouldn't have to and we shouldn't be punished for not following his desired play style.
Wyatt didn't invent Diablo. The current Dev Team didn't invent Diablo. While I am still enjoying the game I have to say that the game will continue to decline until the Dev Team learns to listen instead of telling us how they think it should be done.
At some point, when everything else fails, you just have to say it like it is, especially on the Internet where anyone and everyone's a tough guy and knows no wrong. With this said, I've tried many other approaches over the past year, and I got chewed up, spit out by the E-tough guy. This isn't a place for softies.
I didn't say listen to me to become better players, I said take the time to really dig into learning the ins and out's of the class. That could be asking any player on the forums that are doing well with the class, or it could just be simply taking some time to explore the mechanics. No where did I say or feel like I'm the holy grail of DH's like you're portraying me out to be. Please read what I'm actually saying, instead of what you think I'm trying to say with some sort of hidden agenda.
On the contrary. I did take your post into consideration and made a few edits to lines that could have been perceived to be a bit "too rough". However, you didn't bother to read my entire response to you, nor check to see if i made any adjustments before making the assumption. I'm not even going to tell you what that sounds like, I'm sure you're smart enough to know.
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 5/8/2014 1:51 PM PDT
It's not just his opinion. There are other quotes from other devs stating similar things, I just chose
Wyatts because his was the most prominent and whether you (or I or anyone) likes it or not, he, as well as the others, had a hand in designing what we have now as a DH. He also had a huge hand in the game play aspect of the game (there's a 30 minute video on this btw).
Now, of course I'm not stating you should agree with how the class was designed. I'm not saying anyone has to agree at all with that. A player could very well prefer the DH to be a "Rambo" style class, forgoing all bows and just enter the battle with guns, grenades and knives wrecking havoc that way, and I wouldn't knock a player for that, but that and game design is not the focus of this thread.
My only focus at hand is DH potential and the likes. We either do, or don't, based on how the devs choose to design the class to accel at doing. That's all we have any control over.
P.S. Long time no see! (>^^)>
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 5/8/2014 2:08 PM PDT
There is so much wrong in this statement. He has his own opinions, but his opinions are definitely not the same as yours or mine. And he may not have invented DIABLO but the man certainly does have influence on the current incarnation of the game we are playing today. And no, you don't have to play the game in the exact same way the designers have designed this game to be played. You can certainly grab a sword and shield and try to hack your way to glory as a sword/board DH -- you just won't be nearly as successful. But that's not because someone is PUNISHING you for doing so. Rather, it's because you've chosen to play the DH contrary to how it was designed.
This is their house. Their game. Their art.
Don't ask the development team to change their game for the sake of your peace of mind.
You should pride them for making the game they want opposed to the game "people want". If they were to shift their thinking it would be solely money driven feeding the masses as seen by developers like EA's regurgitated titles.
Learn how to play DH's by their design first...
...then push their limits ...then if necessary; complain.
Edited by hmk21#1716 on 5/8/2014 2:08 PM PDT
I have this to say in responce, DiE fought this same fight a year ago, and you know what, people did listen to him. I know because I was one of them. I didn't know this guy from Adam, but his argument was compelling so I decided to listen and learn. Best thing I ever did in D3.
So yeah, people will listen, more than you think. There are a lot of lurkers out there that soak up information without posting in here.
You should pride them for making the game they want opposed to the game "people want".
This attitude would be fine if they were the only ones playing the game.
From a business perspective there job should be to make a game "that the players want to play" not a game that forces the players to play "there way".
This Dev Team did not invent Diablo. They took a game series that millions of players love and changed it, with a complete disregard to the fans. This would be fine if the players were happy, sadly most of them are not.
I'm a Residential Architect, I'm actually aware of the basic steps in designing things. When a possible client comes in I show them my designs if they are undecided on what they want. My designs are similar to designing a new game, my ideas, my layout.
When a new client comes in with a predetermined design in mind (like a Diablo fan wanting to buy the next new Diablo game) I don't tell them that their design isn't how "I" expect their future home to be laid out. I design their future home (aka game) to fit their expectations, not mine.
I'll say this once again. Personally, I'm still enjoying the game. I'm not posting this because I'm mad. I am disappointed with the single-minded attitude of the Dev Team and the single-minded attitude of some of the DH that populate this forum
Stupid forum login ate my post, but Dave gets it with a side of Slay entertaining the possibility the devs aren't infallible.
Either way, none of us are the sole voice of the class. There are issues. Some might not be seen as issues based on preference, but that doesn't mean they're not issues. We're not here to have the game played for us or whatever other backhanded accusatory put-downs are likely to follow. I get deliberately grandiose toward this crap to serve as a mirror to the absurdity, but as long as there are virtually zero consequences to being an !@#$ to each other, things aren't going to change and the pissing contest will continue.
Monolithic dev silence certainly doesn't help, either.
Overall, time and luck is going to influence an individual's progress in this game. Some will have an easier time of it. Some won't. This will make personal build experimenting difficult at the high end, but it can certainly help point out deficiencies in skills if they're suffering at the low end. Bluntly, if there's supposed to be some specific way we're supposed to be playing this game, the devs are doing a terrible job instructing people. Assuming it to be any of our jobs is part of the problem.
Edit: And just in case this yields an attempt for some back-and-forth from me, I'm not going to be near a PC for the next 24 hours or so due to a little work trip. Yes, such things influence my presence, for better or worse.
Edited by Saidosha#1136 on 5/8/2014 3:38 PM PDT
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