Diablo® III

Understanding my views pertaining to DH.

Hi there FaPoxidE~ (>^^)>

Couple of things:

1. You can't change a crowd of people. People are stubborn. You know this. You can't change people so easily. Unless they clearly see that something else outperforms what they are doing, they may take a look. But then if it takes as much effort as climbing a mountain, they will drop it and go back to what they were doing before.

2. Not to insult anyone in the community, but we don't have really good guides to help players with the little things. Managing 2 resources, being 'squishy', and being efficent requires good decision making, much more than other classes. This isn't something easy to aquire by just looking at a guide, but we can always try our best~ <(^^<)


This... I'd rather learn on my own personally, and get tips here and there from players I play with. Hell I love rolling with danettas set for pure bum rush style play which is frowned upon by some people, but honestly I couldn't care less. My game my play style. If you like it cool, if you don't cool. Tis just a game not a homework where we get graded. Just my opinion.
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05/09/2014 06:41 AMPosted by Finnagain
Dieoxide, I admit that I have not read every post in this thread, so if I deserve to be flamed, so be it. I have a question:

How do your views affect the style of play that a DH must use when in a group? The advice I read for DH all seem to be directed at solo.

In my group, I feel that, despite my superior offensive numbers compared to the others in my group (2 wiz, 2 monk, 1 barb, 1 wd, no other DH) I am in a position of either dying too much or zipping around instead of pounding the enemies. And you can see that I have even made a few equipment decisions for extra defense at the expense of offense to counter this issue to some degree.

On my own, I am very effective even in T4. In a group I am squishy. Is this a DH thing or is there some way I can improve this? Or is it in my head?
What your experiencing is your incompatibility with your group. Your 'squishy' in group compared to solo is most likely due to the lack of sustain.

For example : I can't deal with frozen for more than about 15 seconds. However I am usually able to kill them quickly enough before I reach 15 seconds, so I can deal with frozen. So if I party up with a group that doesn't have that type of killing power, monster pull or party buffs, elites last longer and I can be proned to being killed by frozen.

Also, controlling monster aggro is very important. You always pull monsters into your group, rather than to you. This is why I love smoke screen ^.^

Hope that helps <(^^<)
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05/08/2014 04:13 PMPosted by ActionKungfu
The best games lay the ground work, and the players express and entertain themselves through it. This game completely locks the player down, all the way to the "always online" requirement.


05/08/2014 04:21 PMPosted by ActionKungfu
This isn't some other type of game, where rigidness is necessary for how all of the inner workings of the game bounce off of each other(like Tournament games and other actual competitive games, or even guild driven games). This an Action Role-playing Game. Whatever someone else's fantasy and interpretation of the DH is, they should be able to achieve that.

That's also the thing isn't it? There's lore for all of the classes, and each and every player playing the game has their own personal interpretation of it. The same as we all have our own interpretation of Fun.


Perfectly said.

I want to approach the DH from my decade of running my melee/ranged hybrid damage reduction spearazons and not from a starcraft micro-stepping one...

That's my background, that's what I ENJOY.

Not sure when that became criminal.......
Edited by sneakytails#1320 on 5/9/2014 7:56 AM PDT
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05/09/2014 07:56 AMPosted by sneakytails
05/08/2014 04:13 PMPosted by ActionKungfu
The best games lay the ground work, and the players express and entertain themselves through it. This game completely locks the player down, all the way to the "always online" requirement.


05/08/2014 04:21 PMPosted by ActionKungfu
This isn't some other type of game, where rigidness is necessary for how all of the inner workings of the game bounce off of each other(like Tournament games and other actual competitive games, or even guild driven games). This an Action Role-playing Game. Whatever someone else's fantasy and interpretation of the DH is, they should be able to achieve that.

That's also the thing isn't it? There's lore for all of the classes, and each and every player playing the game has their own personal interpretation of it. The same as we all have our own interpretation of Fun.


Perfectly said.

I want to approach the DH from my decade of running my melee/ranged hybrid damage reduction spearazons and not from a starcraft micro-stepping one...

That's my background, that's what I ENJOY.

Not sure when that became criminal.......


I completely agree. If I want to tank glasscannon style it is my prerogative. Might die a couple of times but that's how I want to play, you can play ranged as recommended for this class but that's just a recommendation IMO. We gotta new clan, we got our own lore. Mainly based on danetta and Natalya the first DH skanks roaming around to kill mobs for loot. Both single mums btw lol. But that's our lore. Anyone can make one really bottom line is you're having fun IMO.
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05/09/2014 06:41 AMPosted by Finnagain
Dieoxide, I admit that I have not read every post in this thread, so if I deserve to be flamed, so be it. I have a question:

How do your views affect the style of play that a DH must use when in a group? The advice I read for DH all seem to be directed at solo.

In my group, I feel that, despite my superior offensive numbers compared to the others in my group (2 wiz, 2 monk, 1 barb, 1 wd, no other DH) I am in a position of either dying too much or zipping around instead of pounding the enemies. And you can see that I have even made a few equipment decisions for extra defense at the expense of offense to counter this issue to some degree.

On my own, I am very effective even in T4. In a group I am squishy. Is this a DH thing or is there some way I can improve this? Or is it in my head?
What your experiencing is your incompatibility with your group. Your 'squishy' in group compared to solo is most likely due to the lack of sustain.

For example : I can't deal with frozen for more than about 15 seconds. However I am usually able to kill them quickly enough before I reach 15 seconds, so I can deal with frozen. So if I party up with a group that doesn't have that type of killing power, monster pull or party buffs, elites last longer and I can be proned to being killed by frozen.

Also, controlling monster aggro is very important. You always pull monsters into your group, rather than to you. This is why I love smoke screen ^.^

Hope that helps <(^^<)
It does. Not in a concrete way, perhaps. But in my position I need to get a view of the while picture, and I think you have provided some broad strokes. Thank you for your attention.
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I think DH have a lot of fun builds up to T4, you can mix a lot of skills runes and make sinergies to kill at decent rates. (no need to name them all)

T6 is a different story and narrow your spec options to only a few gear/spec combinations this doesnt mean we are on a bad spot at DH we are better or on par with other classes on T6

There is a lot of options for playing like micro intensive, mouse only (strafe), button spamming or w/e

What i mean is we got a lot to discover yet and the aproach as player either highly efficcient/lazy o just innovative is up to you. For theorycrafters and people addicted to efficiency there is a lot to give to this forum as DH to help new players to become better and actually know more about this class

TLDR: play the way you want, the way its more fun to you.
Stay humble :D

sorry for my english
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05/09/2014 06:41 AMPosted by Finnagain
Dieoxide, I admit that I have not read every post in this thread, so if I deserve to be flamed, so be it. I have a question:

How do your views affect the style of play that a DH must use when in a group? The advice I read for DH all seem to be directed at solo.

In my group, I feel that, despite my superior offensive numbers compared to the others in my group (2 wiz, 2 monk, 1 barb, 1 wd, no other DH) I am in a position of either dying too much or zipping around instead of pounding the enemies. And you can see that I have even made a few equipment decisions for extra defense at the expense of offense to counter this issue to some degree.

On my own, I am very effective even in T4. In a group I am squishy. Is this a DH thing or is there some way I can improve this? Or is it in my head?
What your experiencing is your incompatibility with your group. Your 'squishy' in group compared to solo is most likely due to the lack of sustain.

For example : I can't deal with frozen for more than about 15 seconds. However I am usually able to kill them quickly enough before I reach 15 seconds, so I can deal with frozen. So if I party up with a group that doesn't have that type of killing power, monster pull or party buffs, elites last longer and I can be proned to being killed by frozen.

Also, controlling monster aggro is very important. You always pull monsters into your group, rather than to you. This is why I love smoke screen ^.^

Hope that helps <(^^<)


I would like to my own take on this issue. I know where you're coming, and I think this issue stems from the amount of control, or lack thereof, that you or the group have, or don't have.

What do I mean by this? In solo play, you have 100% control over the monsters via CC etc, it's up to you what you do with it; however, when you group up, two things can occur: 1) control of the monsters can increase, or 2) the game came become more chaotic with players not working as a team. Your problem, I believe, is the latter.

Examples:

In D3V I played with a barb, the Silent Barb, who was an excellent party player. When he joined my games, my control over the monsters increased substantially because he used his player character and the terrain to control the monsters. Furthermore, he would take cues from my positioning and position his barb accordingly. Likewise, I would take cues from him as well. All this was done without communicating because the barb never said a word.

Again, in D3V I played with a CM Wiz friend of mine who froze everything while standing in one place. Whenever I played with him, I would act as a scout and use my mobilyy to locate packs and lure them to the Wiz.

The above are examples of control increasing during group play. However, the opposite can occur as well. For example, in D3V, many WW Barbs wanted to keep up Wrath, thus necessitating spending fury. This led many of the to sprint across maps without caring how many monsters they didn't kill (incidentally, one the weaknesses of the Barb is chasing down scattered mobs, which is why they usually just forget about it, Act 2 Bees anyone?). In this scenario, the game is chaotic, the party fractured. It would be no different if a DH used Danetta's and vaulted past everything leaving the wiz in the back.

P.S. The DH does't need to chase down mobs, rather we pursue them with arrows and rockets and stuff.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 5/9/2014 10:29 AM PDT
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05/09/2014 05:24 AMPosted by VocaloidNyan
1. You can't change a crowd of people. People are stubborn. You know this. You can't change people so easily. Unless they clearly see that something else outperforms what they are doing, they may take a look. But then if it takes as much effort as climbing a mountain, they will drop it and go back to what they were doing before.


Of course I'm aware that I can't change the masses. I'm a teacher by profession. With my students, I know I can't get everyone to see what I may see through experience and knowledge, however if I can get through to even just one student, I made an impact, possibly a bigger impact on the world than I may even know.

Obviously DH forums is not nearly as important, but the approach I choose is similar. My efforts of course may seem futile and of course I do feel that way often, but if I can reach even just 20% of the community, then thats 20% of the population that just possibly increased their DH potential. That 20% may also go on with friends or public games, and continue the trend that they adapted, affecting another % of players. A chain reaction starts. The small impact I may have made, grows.

Those that will remain stubborn by your logic, will continue to do so, and I expect that. In reality (outside of this thread) most people generally don't like hearing "truth" or being told they are "wrong" or "not good enough" (I'm not saying this, but I hope you get where im coming from), or pretty much anything outside of "you're awesome" "you da man bro!" it's a ego/pride hit.

But at least the information is now out there, with an explanation, and no matter what side you're on, or what anyone's personal views are, there is real truth to what I stated in the OP, something that hasn't been presented here like this before.

When I see stuff like the quote below:

05/09/2014 12:12 AMPosted by Nggalai
Hence: Thank you for this thread, DiEoxidE. Much appreciated. Even should only a handful of players “get” what you are trying to say, it served its purpose.


It makes all that dancing around the keyboard for hours, creating this thread, worth it. (>^^)>
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Oh no! Not again. Blizz please ban Barb weapon thrower, Wiz's Explosive Blast & Wave of force and etc. Wrong skills assigned.
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DiE,

I am an average player at best, but always willing to learn. I chose DH because every other class is only as good as their gear, but not us, not by a long shot. I'm looking at your gear, and it's good but not 3x as good as mine. Yet you do T6 with your build, and I do T3. And you know what? It's not Blizzard's fault.

I remember once when Nyan joined my game while I was playing with my brother. We were doing MP5 or MP6 A3 runs, me as a Nyanfire facetank and my bro as a whirling twirling pansy. Nyan just came in and swept the map in what seem like under a minute - with a RF tank spec! I laughed my socks off because there I was tanking way better than a barb ever did, and another DH outran and outkilled a Sprint/WW. Made my day :)

I actually dig the things you mentioned you wanted to discuss, even if I haven't thought about some of them in the past. Bolas, HA... Taking things apart to find out how they work is fun. I'd love to geek over some of this stuff with you and others of similar mind (looks like most of TPA is here in this thread already) but unfortunately I'm in the EU, so...

I hope I won't be derailing your thread if I post some feedback about the class and how it plays.

My biggest issue with playing DH isn't in the class but rather in the game itself. The UI and controls are simply not where I think they could be with regards to ranged play. The FOV could be wider, perspective could be less pronounced, HUD elements could be configurable, the mouse cursor could be (more) visible, the LMB could be assignable, holding LMB could be more consistent, sentries could have an indicator, Frozen/Plagued/Pulse could have debuff icons... These are all things that are detrimental to the player's interaction with their character. Yes you can get used to them, but I strongly believe that every UI you have to learn to live with is a bad one.

I wish you luck in your quest, even if something tells me your chances are comparable to getting a full Marauder's set from a single chest.
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Great discussion. However i don't have time to respond as I'm too busy trying to find my Marauder Boots and Calamity.
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05/08/2014 11:17 PMPosted by DiEoxidE
Hey! Thanks for the response. I think the issues you bring up are more so game design problems rather than "class" issues, and as such, I can understand where you're coming from.

I will say a few things though in response. I do not feel we are as limited as it may seem at the moment. There may very well be S&B DH's throwing grenades, bolas, knives etc, or DH's face tanking content that are out there, but are not known. The DH forums is a relatively small part of what's going on with the class.

Another thing is that there are players (that I will not say their names) that could very well post their builds/approaches that could change the way a lot of players view the class, but they also feel like us as a community will not accept it with open arms because of the simple minded nature of the forums. Unfortunately it's partly why we don't have as many "options" floating around the community, because it generally shuns out creatively rather than embracing it by stating "T6 videos or it's not valid" or "What, no CA? Scrub player". This issue is amplified by the very thing I stated in the OP.


No problem. You seem rather knowledgeable and coherent in your discussion.

I do agree that my qualm with the class is more of a game design basis and one that is prevalent in almost every class in this game baring Barbarians who are quite diverse in their actual play styles. It's an aspect I miss from the D2 days when I could make an Amazon and have her be either the Melee Pointy stick Maiden or the Thundergodess of the Norse, to even a summoner of powerful Valkyries.

I think it would be cool to discuss stuff like that with on on the matter. I'm always up for trying out some diverse builds as I'm growing tired of the CA build in all forms. Too reliant on that one piece of gear, and not really that interesting to play for long periods of time. I'm a bigger fan of EA Lightning ball really.
Edited by DarkGrif#1684 on 5/9/2014 3:03 PM PDT
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05/09/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Xianath
I remember once when Nyan joined my game while I was playing with my brother. We were doing MP5 or MP6 A3 runs, me as a Nyanfire facetank and my bro as a whirling twirling pansy. Nyan just came in and swept the map in what seem like under a minute - with a RF tank spec! I laughed my socks off because there I was tanking way better than a barb ever did, and another DH outran and outkilled a Sprint/WW. Made my day :)


What? You adore a cheater who use 3rd party software to exploit the game?
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05/09/2014 05:23 PMPosted by Camax
I laughed my socks off because there I was tanking way better than a barb ever did, and another DH outran and outkilled a Sprint/WW.


DiEoxidE used to join my hardcore MP6-7 games, when I was playing perma-wrath ww barb. The crazy sum!@#$% would immediately port to me and use some kind of high speed cold dmg build. Not only did he stay alive, he kept up with me and killed lots of stuff. If you are counting, that is three distinct things that DH could not do according to common HC knowledge.
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05/09/2014 05:34 PMPosted by VeePow
05/09/2014 05:23 PMPosted by Camax
I laughed my socks off because there I was tanking way better than a barb ever did, and another DH outran and outkilled a Sprint/WW.


DiEoxidE used to join my hardcore MP6-7 games, when I was playing perma-wrath ww barb. The crazy sum!@#$% would immediately port to me and use some kind of high speed cold dmg build. Not only did he stay alive, he kept up with me and killed lots of stuff. If you are counting, that is three distinct things that DH could not do according to common HC knowledge.


Those were some good times. :D

(>^^)>
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Rant threads happen in all class discussions

Each class isnt for everyone

I play mmos and moba, from tanks, casters, to glass canons

Some people just dont understand the concept of movement classes and just see all the coolness and damage.

So let them cry about unfairness, one day their tears might clean their stained glasses, so that they may realize the potentials of what was in front of them
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Here here. You guys all summarized what I've been feeling/wanting to say.

I've been attacked in other threads for my sheet DPS and that I can't possibly do T6 (They don't even look at my build). From now on, I'm just going to refer people to this thread. Not feeding trolls any more.
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Design philosophy means very little from what we can see. Monks are supposed to have "High Single Target DPS"...wherever that went. Crusaders are tanks that can't tank as well as monks, both in terms of damage mitigation and ability to keep mobs off of party members.

@OP: I don't really disagree with any of your points oddly enough, but I can't really agree to the roots by which you draw your opinions.

tldr of your post: Try out everything and master the class before complaining about it.

I agree with this, but it has nothing to do with design philosophy.
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I think that excerpt from Blizzard is very important because it clearly endorses the inclusion of stutter stepping as a conscious design decision. It's fine if you don't wish to do it for your own reasons, but this means it cannot be justified by calling stutter stepping an exploit of some sort (which is a ludicrous notion, obviously).
Edited by Myon#1319 on 5/10/2014 9:41 PM PDT
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05/09/2014 11:27 AMPosted by DiEoxidE
I'm a teacher by profession.

o.O Did not know that..

05/09/2014 12:12 PMPosted by Cameo
Oh no! Not again. Blizz please ban Barb weapon thrower, Wiz's Explosive Blast & Wave of force and etc. Wrong skills assigned.

Uh.. what?

05/10/2014 09:27 PMPosted by North2
tldr of your post: Try out everything and master the class before complaining about it.

I think this is the main take away for me from this post too. The main problem is players complaining and ranting and unreasonably asking for buffs/nerfs without fully understanding the class.

If a player understands the ins and outs of a class, then they would know all the pros and cons of any spec and play style that he/she wishes to embrace, and then they can start to see what changes we actually reasonably need.

Too many threads about asking for unreasonable buffs like "skill A does x times more weapon damage than skills x, y and z, therefore skills x, y and z are all useless and need to be buffed" and "DH have crap defense I can't facetank mobs while fapping, please give us more damage mitigation", made by players who haven't actually fully explored all options and have a full grasp of how each and every skill interacts/synergises with each other.
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