Diablo® III

Understanding my views pertaining to DH.

05/08/2014 04:09 PMPosted by ActionKungfu


This IS supposed to be an RPG, after all.


I think this is spot on.

The isn't Star Craft ..or even Angry birds. You are literally just repeating the same things over and over and over again. With enough repetitions, everything will become trivial. The skill ceiling isn't really all that high and shouldn't be. The goal of this game was and will always be to farm better gears.

With that being said, I can't say I have any issues with the DH atm...just farming T1 - T4 anyways..and frankly...even with decent farming efficiencies, gears are still not dropping...but that's not the topic of conversation.

This game as a whole has a lot of issues right now..the devs need to get it all together before they start looking at class specific issues.
Edited by Killua#1993 on 5/10/2014 10:52 PM PDT
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Too many threads about asking for unreasonable buffs like "skill A does x times more weapon damage than skills x, y and z, therefore skills x, y and z are all useless and need to be buffed" and "DH have crap defense I can't facetank mobs while fapping, please give us more damage mitigation", made by players who haven't actually fully explored all options and have a full grasp of how each and every skill interacts/synergises with each other.

Not to say all requests out there are reasonable, but it's hyperbole like the bolded that tends to sabotage any attempt at an intellectual approach. Not only are you disagreeing, but you've shut yourself out to the possibility that someone's disagreement holds merit because it's "not how you like to play" or the commonly spewed drivel that DH is supposed to be the technical class and the complainers just suck at it.

Numbers matter, but at the same time, situations where whatever skills shine are just as important. AoEs tend to reign in this game because you have more group encounters than solo fights, but at the same time, it's too often the ST skills are under-tuned to be appealing without really niche gear. I've butt heads with others under the auspice that viability should be achieved before such, as indeed, current RNG means someone could never find the specific item(s) they want (with the right rolls) to play the skill(s) they enjoy in the most rewarding manner possible. So, when it's evident one build is more rewarding than others, balance hasn't been achieved. I try not to call for nerfs, personally, but sometimes it is required, or at least makes sense, like with pets and Sharpshooter a bit back.

So, sure, someone could throw up some herpderp build with nothing but spenders and say that's how they want to play, but that's not only trolling that sentiment, but spitting in the face of the actual game mechanics with the whole spender/generator metric where you actually see tutorials, even if brief. Can't say the same for how quick some are to demand stuttering a requirement, nevermind how that conflicts with certain skills/passives. I detected some sarcasm on the throw Barb post, by the way. Plus my hatred of the "squishy archer" stereotype isn't something I've held back on in the past.

Which I suppose brings me to the topic of roles that was brought up the other day. I tend to be more critical about my use of the term RPG, be it MMORPG, ARPG, Tabletop, or whatever. I could even lob out a resumee to try and justify my opinion, too, but that's really just a waste of time for me to both type and force others to read. Actual in-game DH lore presentation sucks. I've said it in other posts, but if we're supposed to be playing a certain way, the game itself needs to teach us. And as someone who actually LIKES to RP with the whole premise of creating a character, background, personality, goals, and applying that with the interactions with others, I am quite comfortable in saying that such is not promoted in this game. Partly why also applies to MMOs in two aspects: The combat systems don't support pauses for dialogue/emotive exchange and there are no actual rewards to encourage people to take RP seriously.

So, on that end, I call the RP experience significantly shallow. Could I seek out some like-minded folks? Sure. But at the same time, I could also imply some forced visual elements, like the fixed looks for our genders, shoehorn us away from some options the occasional theme-monger may try to hammer in or even lob around classic elitist terms like Mary Sues, invoke cliches, or imply their flowery purple prose makes them the better player. Yeeeeah, seen such elsewhere. Not really beneficial just like such ego flexing tends not help games like this. No, if I want really good RP, I have other venues. Don't have to buy into 'em, either.

Despite what rage the anti-BoA crowd seethes when Blizz uses the line that the game is about killing monsters, it really is that simple. It's not trading. It's not RPing in the most evocative sense. We're just slipping into the skin of some avatars and blowing shiz up. It's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be an escape from our more mundane realities. Yet, a certain suspension of disbelief can arise when those balance hiccups do arise, and not for fault of player skill or the lack thereof.

So, if I say something like, "I want all skills to be useful!" it's because I don't want them to be a waste of skill space even if their optimal scenarios of application aren't commonly found. And pulling that off may very well require more than just tweaking the skill itself, but other things like possible gear affixes, our latent mitigation, or even the dangers of the mobs out in the wild. If someone is approaching things from that angle, it tells me they're not only looking at the DH, but the rest of the game, too. But such should also not be construed for demanding EZ Mode, wanting the game played for us, or other not-helpful hate spew. I don't dedicate my time solely to the DH class because I do like to figure out these other things and build up some foundations for comparison. Doesn't mean I don't occasionally pause to read up on the experiences of others, either. Collective feedback is helpful even if there is some noise to sift through.

Either way, someone will only learn if they want to. Humiliating in the hopes they might just reeks of negative reinforcement and is more likely to harm than help among some other potential underlying issues. And even if none of us were here, I suspect the same conversations would be happening in one form or another.
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@Saidosha tldr-> Design philosophy means nothing although I want it to be. Everyone's opinions have some merit whether you agree with it or not. I want all skills to be useful.

05/10/2014 11:35 PMPosted by Saidosha
it's too often the ST skills are under-tuned to be appealing without really niche gear. I've butt heads with others under the auspice that viability should be achieved before such, as indeed, current RNG means someone could never find the specific item(s) they want (with the right rolls) to play the skill(s) they enjoy in the most rewarding manner possible. So, when it's evident one build is more rewarding than others, balance hasn't been achieved. I try not to call for nerfs, personally, but sometimes it is required, or at least makes sense, like with pets and Sharpshooter a bit back.


That reminded me of a thread I've been meaning to make. I have a solution for you -> http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12673779310
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05/10/2014 11:35 PMPosted by Saidosha
Not to say all requests out there are reasonable, but it's hyperbole like the bolded that tends to sabotage any attempt at an intellectual approach. Not only are you disagreeing, but you've shut yourself out to the possibility that someone's disagreement holds merit because it's "not how you like to play" or the commonly spewed drivel that DH is supposed to be the technical class and the complainers just suck at it.


But understand that players that are playing the class and succeeding are doing so because they are playing the class to the design intent of the devs, or at least took the time learn the class enough to get there.

The argument of "it's not how you like to play" is futile here because it's not about how I "like to play" but rather playing to the "strengths" of the class. If a person chooses not to do this, then that person can't possibly expect to achieve as much as the person who is. I stated this very clear in my OP, and my construction worker example is spot on.

Saying "Well I don't like to use the tools available to succeed" basically means that the DH may not be the class for them if they do not enjoy using those tools, or it could mean that person just has an issue with the game design in general. This is when I start to tell players that maybe another class is suited for them.

So when I see that "DH LACKS defensive options", I do have to chime in and state the truth. Do you realize that it's quite possible for a DH to practically almost facetank T6? Oh ya, it's possible, but it requires the player knowing how skill synergy works, a little bit math and some patience to create the appropriate spec. You can just number crunch, which here, doesn't even take a rocket science to see that a DH through the skills available alone, can up their toughness by nearly 4X of their stated sheet number (Yes, I'm aware it includes dodge unfortunately) That's HUGE, and I await that player who can figure this out and really put it together show it to us all.

Same thing to a lesser extent when I hear "build diversity" and when players even such as yourself specifically told me what I do wouldn't work in high torment, yet I came out with a spec, without the supposed "BiS gear", without the supposed "best skills list", with multiple fast T6 videos to show that it is STILL possible, almost single handedly debunking the "rumors" or "standards".

05/10/2014 11:35 PMPosted by Saidosha
Numbers matter, but at the same time, situations where whatever skills shine are just as important. AoEs tend to reign in this game because you have more group encounters than solo fights, but at the same time, it's too often the ST skills are under-tuned to be appealing without really niche gear. I've butt heads with others under the auspice that viability should be achieved before such, as indeed, current RNG means someone could never find the specific item(s) they want (with the right rolls) to play the skill(s) they enjoy in the most rewarding manner possible. So, when it's evident one build is more rewarding than others, balance hasn't been achieved. I try not to call for nerfs, personally, but sometimes it is required, or at least makes sense, like with pets and Sharpshooter a bit back.

So, sure, someone could throw up some herpderp build with nothing but spenders and say that's how they want to play, but that's not only trolling that sentiment, but spitting in the face of the actual game mechanics with the whole spender/generator metric where you actually see tutorials, even if brief. Can't say the same for how quick some are to demand stuttering a requirement, nevermind how that conflicts with certain skills/passives. I detected some sarcasm on the throw Barb post, by the way. Plus my hatred of the "squishy archer" stereotype isn't something I've held back on in the past.

Which I suppose brings me to the topic of roles that was brought up the other day. I tend to be more critical about my use of the term RPG, be it MMORPG, ARPG, Tabletop, or whatever. I could even lob out a resumee to try and justify my opinion, too, but that's really just a waste of time for me to both type and force others to read. Actual in-game DH lore presentation sucks. I've said it in other posts, but if we're supposed to be playing a certain way, the game itself needs to teach us. And as someone who actually LIKES to RP with the whole premise of creating a character, background, personality, goals, and applying that with the interactions with others, I am quite comfortable in saying that such is not promoted in this game. Partly why also applies to MMOs in two aspects: The combat systems don't support pauses for dialogue/emotive exchange and there are no actual rewards to encourage people to take RP seriously.

So, on that end, I call the RP experience significantly shallow. Could I seek out some like-minded folks? Sure. But at the same time, I could also imply some forced visual elements, like the fixed looks for our genders, shoehorn us away from some options the occasional theme-monger may try to hammer in or even lob around classic elitist terms like Mary Sues, invoke cliches, or imply their flowery purple prose makes them the better player. Yeeeeah, seen such elsewhere. Not really beneficial just like such ego flexing tends not help games like this. No, if I want really good RP, I have other venues. Don't have to buy into 'em, either.

Despite what rage the anti-BoA crowd seethes when Blizz uses the line that the game is about killing monsters, it really is that simple. It's not trading. It's not RPing in the most evocative sense. We're just slipping into the skin of some avatars and blowing shiz up. It's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be an escape from our more mundane realities. Yet, a certain suspension of disbelief can arise when those balance hiccups do arise, and not for fault of player skill or the lack thereof.

So, if I say something like, "I want all skills to be useful!" it's because I don't want them to be a waste of skill space even if their optimal scenarios of application aren't commonly found. And pulling that off may very well require more than just tweaking the skill itself, but other things like possible gear affixes, our latent mitigation, or even the dangers of the mobs out in the wild. If someone is approaching things from that angle, it tells me they're not only looking at the DH, but the rest of the game, too. But such should also not be construed for demanding EZ Mode, wanting the game played for us, or other not-helpful hate spew. I don't dedicate my time solely to the DH class because I do like to figure out these other things and build up some foundations for comparison. Doesn't mean I don't occasionally pause to read up on the experiences of others, either. Collective feedback is helpful even if there is some noise to sift through.


Reading this gives me a much clearer understanding of your viewpoint. Your issues all along haven't really been with the DH class, but rather the game design itself, however, you have been taking out your frustrations and venting about class "issues" when it's really "general" issues.

In fact, I don't really even disagree with you most of your points. Clanmates and I often discuss this on TS on a daily basis, however, most of us still find ways to enjoy the game for what it is, and we are well aware that if we are looking to achieve, then we have to play the game (or class of our choice) within the confinements of how they designed it to be. We then stretch/push the limits on our class of choice to further bring out enjoyment.

You very well may not enjoy the game for what it is, and that may be a personal thing you'll have to come to terms with. Personally I think the itemization is STILL bland and boring as hell for a "RPG", but I've come to terms with this team that this is not their strengths, so that I'm not disappointed with each attempt they make on the "RPG" of things. The one thing we all know is that we cannot change the way the devs approach the game or this genre. Whether we agree or disagree with how they did things, we can only accept it, or move on, but that's a whole different topic.
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 5/11/2014 2:25 AM PDT
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05/11/2014 02:10 AMPosted by DiEoxidE
But understand that players that are playing the class and succeeding are doing so because they are playing the class to the design intent of the devs, or at least took the time learn the class enough to get there.


To be fair, I'm pretty sure the DH is the only class where this statement holds true in any way. I can't be certain because I didn't read the design philosophy of all classes, but this is what it would be like if your statement was true:

Barbarian - We want barbarians to stomp everything while making their presence known to everyone around them, so we made sure that you can stomp !@#$ while quaking %^-*.

Monk - We want monks to suck while blowing. With Cyclone Strike and Exploding palm, they can suck everything in and blow everything up.

Witch Doctor - ...Okay, maybe they are designed somewhat as intended.

Wizard - We want wizards to be played at a steady rhythm that players can immerse themselves in. With Wand of Woh, those Explosive Blast beats will haunt you in your dreams.

Crusader - We want crusaders to rock this world with the power of music. With Jekangbord, they are ready to slay demons with guitar picks and pop(corn) rock.

To my understanding, these sum up the most successful builds of all classes.
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05/11/2014 02:40 AMPosted by North2
To be fair, I'm pretty sure the DH is the only class where this statement holds true in any way. I can't be certain because I didn't read the design philosophy of all classes, but this is what it would be like if your statement was true:

Barbarian - We want barbarians to stomp everything while making their presence known to everyone around them, so we made sure that you can stomp !@#$ while quaking %^-*.

Monk - We want monks to suck while blowing. With Cyclone Strike and Exploding palm, they can suck everything in and blow everything up.

Witch Doctor - ...Okay, maybe they are designed somewhat as intended.

Wizard - We want wizards to be played at a steady rhythm that players can immerse themselves in. With Wand of Woh, those Explosive Blast beats will haunt you in your dreams.

Crusader - We want crusaders to rock this world with the power of music. With Jekangbord, they are ready to slay demons with guitar picks and pop(corn) rock.

To my understanding, these sum up the most successful builds of all classes.


You could very well be correct, and I will not attempt to refute this in general. What you state is more on an overall broad base, I'm only specifically talking about DH and it's potential, tapped or untapped.

There however, could be monk/wd/barb/wiz/crusader player(s) that could possibly feel the way I feel about their class that constantly strives to bring out whatever potential that class may have. Who knows really :P
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 5/11/2014 3:04 AM PDT
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In terms of devotees for... pretty much anything, I'll just quote what I said earlier:
And even if none of us were here, I suspect the same conversations would be happening in one form or another.

MMO forums, Reddit, fan sites, whatever... people cling to things. Some get a bit too... fanatical, for choice of a less-abrasive word, but the concept of a standalone complex can very much spring up. For those who never watched the first season of the Ghost in the Shell anime, that basically means the presence of copies without there ever being an original.

We'll never know what all everyone is doing on the sly. Sites like Diabloprogress might clue us in a bit with rankings, but even that doesn't tell the whole story. It's also why I tend to sneer a bit when someone claims they know how another plays just by profile surfing.

Speaking of a more tanky build, however, I have been sitting on something I've been wanting to try. Unfortunately, time and luck hasn't been cooperating. :(
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05/08/2014 03:05 PMPosted by Slay
From a business perspective there job should be to make a game "that the players want to play" not a game that forces the players to play "there way".


This is true, but what players would you be talking about- 'casual' players or 'hardcore' players? Its not easy to just say "do what your players want you to do".

As for OP, I understood what you are trying to say, and I agree. The DH takes finesse. Takes skill to make it shine. I'm still working on my play style, as I didn't reach 70 until couple weeks ago.

I've played all the classes at some point, and besides the Crusader (being brand new and really challenging to figure out where in the spectrum he stands as far as tank versus damage thundergod, which he is really neither...) the DH has always been the most finicky to play, because he's squishy.

I admit, it can be a pain to play if all I want to do is faceroll over everything. Its simply not the ideal character to play if you want to do that.

If you want to tap into the true pontential of the DH, you have to consider your strategy. I don't see this as an insult to anybody.
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05/09/2014 05:34 PMPosted by VeePow
05/09/2014 05:23 PMPosted by Camax
I laughed my socks off because there I was tanking way better than a barb ever did, and another DH outran and outkilled a Sprint/WW.


DiEoxidE used to join my hardcore MP6-7 games, when I was playing perma-wrath ww barb. The crazy sum!@#$% would immediately port to me and use some kind of high speed cold dmg build. Not only did he stay alive, he kept up with me and killed lots of stuff. If you are counting, that is three distinct things that DH could not do according to common HC knowledge.


As long as it's not spiders... hehehehehe
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+ 9000

Also, I better stop eating cookies soon...I'm starting to get fat!
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I prefer to eat the cake
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