Diablo® III

RNG: Debunked and explained

" I am also a programmer and can confirm that computers can't handle tables with more than 6-9 entries. We simply don't have the technology yet." - JackStraw

so if thers 6-9 slots does that mean 6-9 legendary or 6-9 random items cause i get way more the 9-6 dif rares in one game?
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-" I am also a programmer and can confirm that computers can't handle tables with more than 6-9 entries. We simply don't have the technology yet." - JackStraw[/quote]

so if thers 6-9 slots does that mean 6-9 legendary or 6-9 random items cause i get way more the 9-6 dif rares in one game?
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-" I am also a programmer and can confirm that computers can't handle tables with more than 6-9 entries. We simply don't have the technology yet." - JackStraw[/quote]

so if thers 6-9 slots does that mean 6-9 legendary or 6-9 random items cause i get way more the 9-6 dif rares in one game?
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05/28/2014 11:11 PMPosted by Dawarchief
-" I am also a programmer and can confirm that computers can't handle tables with more than 6-9 entries. We simply don't have the technology yet." - JackStraw


so if thers 6-9 slots does that mean 6-9 legendary or 6-9 random items cause i get way more the 9-6 dif rares in one game?


Neither.

I've been tracking my drops in individual games where 2+ legendaries dropped, just to see what it looks like visually.

I haven't done much data sorting, but I did try to build one "table" centered around the Stone of Jordan, just to see what it would look like if was indeed a table.

It has 12 out of 16 different types of gear categories (weapons were only sorted as either 1H and 2H, and offhands are a single category - not different types like fists and flails) and 26 different unique Legendary names.

If what he's saying is even close to true, and that's the system that Blizzard chose to use, then it would mean 6-9 legendaries per 'category' of item ... how many categories? I dunno, but at least 12.

I'm not a programmer, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, so I'm not gonna talk any further as they're just assumptions based on what I have seen actually occur.
Edited by Empyrean#1492 on 5/29/2014 7:49 PM PDT
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question regarding this loot table you speak of, so say you receive an item from kadala like tals helm, which would mean its obviously on your loot table, but say it rolls weird, would you think receiving it from kadala would take it away from your loot table or can you keep gambling and potentially get another one with different stats?

not sure if this has been asked before but its hard to read through 49 pages lol
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06/03/2014 05:24 PMPosted by kencoria
question regarding this loot table you speak of, so say you receive an item from kadala like tals helm, which would mean its obviously on your loot table, but say it rolls weird, would you think receiving it from kadala would take it away from your loot table or can you keep gambling and potentially get another one with different stats?

not sure if this has been asked before but its hard to read through 49 pages lol


Getting one item means that you're MORE likely to get it again, according to the loot table theory.

Sorry to answer this late, but... I read through 49 pages before I answered lol
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49 pages and still no blue post confirming or denying it. I'd love a blue post confirming or denying the set loot table per toon per game hypothesis.
Edited by Mephobia#2161 on 6/17/2014 1:58 PM PDT
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I came across this thread but I've decided it's basically all bull. Look at his wizards.

How many of the actually scarce items does he have?

Like 1 kaleidoscope, 1 fairly bad witching hour.

Only thing I see of interest is has 1 of his wizards stacking magic find. Does he gamble on that one and get better results? I do wonder about that.

Show me a stash full of lacuni prowlers and witching hours, THEN you will have my attention.
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Did you ever end up finding a kridershot with this method?
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I think it helps to have a bit of A.D.D. sometimes. When farming rift keys, I get totally side tracked killing enemies and exploring the map. I found a Mara's in a hidden grove chest a few weeks ago and just yesterday I found ice climbers going in the complete opposite direction I was supposed to go. Just imagine all of the legendary items are passed over because of rushing through everything. There's a reason why they call it "Adventure" mode.
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05/27/2014 03:51 PMPosted by Apathy
05/27/2014 10:01 AMPosted by PvP
This thread is as laughable as the op's chars. None of his characters i'd consider any good.

http://www.diabloprogress.com/player/tealdawn-1499

you're laughable


I love it when a nolifer come in and says this type of garbage.

Just because you have number 4 wiz in Deepeenprogress doesn't make his characters not good, and neither of those points correlate to the topic at hand.

What's laughable is how much time you have wasted on this game yet your efforts will earn you no respect.


He has a point, though, and has nothing to do about "deepeenprogress." If you had some super secret knowledge about how drop rates worked in this game, you'd be an idiot not to be decked out in all end-game gear. Being in average gear and trying to convince others you know the secrets of how drops work screams "BS" in my book.

Consider this: how many people get mad with players like me who think current drop rates are fine with the ideology of "Just because you're lucky with drops, or have no life and grind all day, does not mean drop rates are fine." People look at a person's gear to determine whether or not he's "lucky" with drops. That said, someone who says he knows how the drop system really works should be a very "lucky" individual. In this case he's not, which is a huge red flag.

On the contrary, I have never seeked this theory out to try to see if it works, since I generally have all the items I want anyways, and am not going to spend 6+ hours to expose my loot table or do any of that stuff; however, I have helped friends in T6 rifts with ~60 toons and have gambled items after the rifts just to make room for new shards and have gotten level 70 versions of legendaries that have dropped in the rifts at lower levels. Does that prove anything? It proves nothing that can't be explained by randomness. I think too many people try to find patterns in drops in an effort to refute randomness when in fact, patterns often happen in randomness and point to nothing more than that - randomness.
Edited by Thorgrim#1699 on 7/7/2014 4:01 PM PDT
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07/07/2014 04:05 AMPosted by Gatoradez
set loot tables do not exist..well they do in a sense that there are torment only items but according to a blue post, there are no set tables in the way all of you are thinking.


Firstly I gotta say, please give link to that before calling BS-----^

Second thing I have to say is that the idea of loot tables is a very plausible thing. As a programmer in both C++ and C# I can say like this. Imagine all the legendaries in the game atm (since that 15% non smart loot). Then think like this. A mob dies:

* First it checks to see what quality will drop

* Then it checks to see what item type will drop

* Then it checks what item of that type that should drop.

* After all this is decided it needs to go through all the affixes the item should have and what stats thoose affixes should have.

Now add this together with the ammount of legs of each type there is. It would take some time for this to be computed, especially when we have multiple mobs dropping items at the same time, or mobs/chests dropping multiple items. And then think about it's not only the drop that's being calculated and updated over the network. (There's a whole game running at the same time ;), simulating physics on bodies and sending a whole lot of information over the network).

So what do we people (me included) in the game industry do for our games to run smoothly, we optimize. One way of doing so is making predetermined loot tables. That way, when it's decided which kind of item should drop it only has to randomly select between a small list of items.
Blizzard makes their games to satisfy the masses, with this I mean that the players that have the bare minimum specs to play the game shouldn't have 30 sec - 1 min waiting time for the loot while people with high end pcs doesn't. So some sort of loot table is more then possible.

This doesn't prove Blizzard has done this, but nothing proves the opposite either.

One thing for sure, Blizzard doesn't want people complaining on laggy lootdrop (Item taking up to a minute to appear).

Last thing. I got 7 Cindercoat in the same game, using 3 on my chars, have 3 in chest and gave 1 away to friend. I also got 4 Magefist in same game.
This doesn't prove it, might be RNG but I only found 3-4 other leg chest pieces that day on that server (stayed on same server for 8 hours) and all of thoose were more common then cindercoat, so people calling BS right away without thinking it through, be a little more skeptical.

As long as Blizzard hasn't clearly stated this is not how it is done and actually explained how they've done the calculation on what should drop. You should consider this to be the way it is and take it into account when farming legs.

Regards
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05/13/2014 09:00 AMPosted by DatBeast
05/13/2014 07:45 AMPosted by Daemonne
So in searching for a RoRG, based on the OPs post, it would be best to farm 50 (Edit: A1) caches then open then 5-10 at a time remaking your game each 5- 10 caches?

Any Theorists out there crunch those numbers and see what the best ratio per remade game would be?


I did exactly this. 46 caches in my bag. In the first i openend was the RoRG. I opened all 45 other caches right after in the same game as fast as i could. One more leg (no Ring) and nothing else.
Try it for yourself, its boring.


Well this wouldn't work. Since (As Blizzard have told us) Caches loot is rolled when the bag is picked up. (The cache itself only"Hides" the items inside it until you open it).

So even if tables are true this wouldn't help you.
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Here's Lylirra's post:

Hey all!

For clarity, items and their stats are determined at the time that they're generated in the game world. In most situations, this is when the item physically drops (like from a monster, a chest, or a destructible). In cases where there isn't a physical drop, items and their stats are determined as soon the game creates them. For example, items from Kadala are generated as soon as they're purchased. Item types, stats, drops rates, etc. are not determined, or pre-determined, upon creation of a character nor is that kind of information stored in some sort of seed on the character itself.

It's important to keep in mind that random != uniform or equal distribution. It's completely natural for random systems to include clusters, and for the human brain to interpret those clusters as patterns (even where there are none).

Thanks for the discussion, though! Theories like this are always interesting, and of course can yield great feedback on and insight into potential related issues. :) I’m going to go ahead and lock this thread up, though, since the theory isn't actually accurate and I'd like to help curb some of the misinformation.

In parting, for your trouble, I'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbInZ5oJ0bc
Edited by Lylirra on 5/30/2014 10:41 AM PDT


Now if we take a look at this sentence:

For example, items from Kadala are generated as soon as they're purchased. Item types, stats, drops rates, etc. are not determined, or pre-determined, upon creation of a character nor is that kind of information stored in some sort of seed on the character itself.

Well we never said a specific item was predetermined.

As I mentioned in my earlier post:

* First it checks to see what quality will drop

* Then it checks to see what item type will drop

* Then it checks what item of that type that should drop.

* After all this is decided it needs to go through all the affixes the item should have and what stats thoose affixes should have.


So yes according to Lylirra this is still possible even with a loot table. What the GM said still doesn't deny the existence of it.

Since there must be some sort of list of items for the game to be able to spawn an item at all. It needs some kind of reference to spawn from. A game won't instantiate something without you specifying what to spawn. Therefore there must be a list of some sorts containing all items in the game. If you consider this, they might aswell take a random seed of that list on serverconnect and crop to a smaller more manageable list of items for when loot drop actually happens.
Edited by DrunkenNinj4#2995 on 7/7/2014 7:17 PM PDT
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04/28/2014 11:13 PMPosted by Thorgrim
So it's new news that farming for legendaries based on their base level could yield good results?

There are many tricks on how to go about restricting the loot table that don't need to be made public knowledge.


Considering this knowledge is about a video game that is not in any way competitive between players this comes across as an incredibly douchey comment, I have to say.
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07/07/2014 07:16 PMPosted by DrunkenNinj4
* First it checks to see what quality will drop

* Then it checks to see what item type will drop

* Then it checks what item of that type that should drop.

* After all this is decided it needs to go through all the affixes the item should have and what stats thoose affixes should have.


programmer... there is a way to random without cached loot tables while joining the game or creating character..

it can way so:

while loading screen appears local client or server side generates a map... all mobs and elites.. than local client makes cache of items.. already applied with RNG, making affixes and all other...

on my experience - some rarest things like cold boots, kukri etc have different chances to drop for different characters... or it can be explaned by exampe:

1.6% kukri of all ceremonial knifes... so its about 70 knifes need to get to see the kukri... one player can see it on fifth knife and other on 60^^

ps i get kukri about 25 knifes and my friend still got no luck hes on 35
Edited by Yame#2687 on 7/13/2014 2:32 PM PDT
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07/07/2014 07:01 PMPosted by DrunkenNinj4

Well this wouldn't work. Since (As Blizzard have told us) Caches loot is rolled when the bag is picked up. (The cache itself only"Hides" the items inside it until you open it).

So even if tables are true this wouldn't help you.


If the caches loot is rolled when picked up , how is it I can farm them on my DH and open on my barb to get strength items , my wizard to get int items etc .

So are you trying to say it rolls the item when you get it from Tyrael , but only rolls the stats of the item when its actually opened .
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07/16/2014 03:37 PMPosted by Nodders
07/07/2014 07:01 PMPosted by DrunkenNinj4

Well this wouldn't work. Since (As Blizzard have told us) Caches loot is rolled when the bag is picked up. (The cache itself only"Hides" the items inside it until you open it).

So even if tables are true this wouldn't help you.


If the caches loot is rolled when picked up , how is it I can farm them on my DH and open on my barb to get strength items , my wizard to get int items etc .

So are you trying to say it rolls the item when you get it from Tyrael , but only rolls the stats of the item when its actually opened .

Some things are set, some are variable.

Class is variable based on who opens: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13348454718#3

Cache difficulty is set when it drops: https://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/14138344/#amhoradriccache

Cache level is set when it drops: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12504581301#11

Any questions?
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04/29/2014 05:02 AMPosted by OneButtnDash
I don't know if it's been mentioned at all but has anyone ever noticed when you change characters and play another one for a bit then jump back to your main it seems to reset some sort of legendary drop rate? Many times if I'm on a cold streak with my main character I will play another one of my alts then almost everytime I come back to play my main WD he will get some new leg drops pretty quickly.


I've definitely noticed this, which is why I give some credence to this theory.

Many times I get a really good run. Then I change characters to level an alt. When I get back to my main I get nothing but crap.

Btw - - how do I start a lower level game? I don't want to have to level a new char everytime I want to farm something.
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