Diablo® III

Dual Wield Socets stack - yes or no?

I have heard back and forth arguments on whether or not CHD stacks on socketed DW weapons on the DH. Some say yes some no some yes but not on some skills ... my definitive opinion is a resounding "?"

I am a bit confused from searching and am curious what peoples thoughts are.

Thanks!
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I notice it stacking.
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Are you serious ? How is this even up for debate ? It definitely does stack. Why would you be able to wield a second weapon with an emerald socketed and not get credit for the socketed weapon ?
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I've noticed no difference on my crits, and I've seen and heard people saying it doesnt stack, I'd love to hear the real answer
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Maybe I had no difference because my offhand dps was lower than my main so taht gave same amounts of crits ?
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There isn't any reason why it wouldn't stack. Your CHD rises on your in-game paperdoll reflecting the increased damage, so the game is telling you that it does stack. Unless people are thinking that the game is lying to them, by reflecting the increased damage but actually not taking it into account when calculating the damage. Either way, 130% crit damage is a lot. It should be easily provable through testing.
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05/06/2014 11:41 AMPosted by Lucidity
Are you serious ? How is this even up for debate ? It definitely does stack. Why would you be able to wield a second weapon with an emerald socketed and not get credit for the socketed weapon ?


The argument is that you do get credit for the socketed emerald just only for attacks using that weapon. Just like when you socket a ruby, the benefit is only via increasing the damage of that weapon's attacks, not both weapon's attacks (i.e. socketing say a +100 ruby in a 2aps weapon increases that weapon's dps by 200, while leaving your other weapon's dps unaffected - that weapon DPS change then gets applied to your overall sheet DPS through the normal dual-wield calculation).

I don't know if it does work like that since I haven't tested it. There were some pretty through seeming testing threads posted though that apparently concluded the emeralds do only apply one weapon at a time.

I could see Blizzard implementing it this way just so that dual-wield isn't automatically better all the time just for the extra weapon socket (which it was except in cases like DH builds where 90% of your damage is from one skill so the extra skill-mod from a quiver can still be better).
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Lets end this debate once and for all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDD0X4lv3w

Go to 15:22

They "Don't stack" they show as increased on your char but the crit damage is independent per cross bow

/thread
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05/06/2014 12:01 PMPosted by Maverick
Lets end this debate once and for all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDD0X4lv3w

Go to 15:22

They "Don't stack" they show as increased on your char but the crit damage is independent per cross bow

/thread


its idiots like him that start rumors like this; if they didn't stack 2x1h will have NO CHANCE of competing with a quiver.

/thread.

(+cluster arrow damage and maybe +increased elite damage will make the crit numbers look the same though.)
Edited by mukunda#1743 on 5/6/2014 12:09 PM PDT
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05/06/2014 12:01 PMPosted by Maverick
Lets end this debate once and for all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDD0X4lv3w

Go to 15:22

They "Don't stack" they show as increased on your char but the crit damage is independent per cross bow

/thread


That video means nothing. Just because he says it doesn't stack, does not mean that it does not stack. He didn't do any extensive tests to verify his assertions or not.

You want to know why this is difficult to prove one way or another ? Because 1handed crossbows have an extreme amount of variance in their damage ranges. Most of the 1hcrossbows have min/max damages that are ONE THOUSAND points of damage from one another. For a 2handed crossbow, the variance is half as large. So in order to prove whether or not the damage does stack, you need to have a large sample size to account for the variance in damage from the 1hxbows.
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05/06/2014 12:05 PMPosted by mukunda
05/06/2014 12:01 PMPosted by Maverick
Lets end this debate once and for all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDD0X4lv3w

Go to 15:22

They "Don't stack" they show as increased on your char but the crit damage is independent per cross bow

/thread


its idiots like him that start rumors like this; if they didn't stack 2x1h will have NO CHANCE of competing with a quiver.

/thread.

(+cluster arrow damage and maybe +increased elite damage will make the crit numbers look the same though.)


Hes not saying that the crit damage doesnt go into effect they are "Independent" of each other. Meaning the damage you do on your nat slayer can only be 130% CHD..instead of 260..however when your lets say calamity procs its still 130% CHD just not 260

Think of it as being un-clumped vs clumped then you may get it
Edited by Maverick#1553 on 5/6/2014 12:13 PM PDT
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Stop. The answer is yes. They stack.

There would be no point of dual wield if they didn't stack. You don't need to test anything.
Edited by mukunda#1743 on 5/6/2014 12:13 PM PDT
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I've found that it stacks. That said, I ended up going back to the quiver but I did have to give up a little DPS to do it. I just found my toughness was hurting too much, at least at the time.

I was watching my CA+LFB damages when I was testing (at the time my DPS was 900 sheet). The highest crit I could see with the quiver (I was using the same hand crossbow and quiver that is on my DH now) was about 22 million. When I had a secondary crossbow (Izzucob, almost identical specs to my current Condemnation) also with a Flawless Royal, I could occasionally see crits as high as 27 million. When I switched back, I never saw crits that high again until my DPS went up via other gear.
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05/06/2014 12:13 PMPosted by mukunda
Stop. The answer is yes. They stack.

There would be no point of dual wield if they didn't stack. You don't need to test anything.


I agree that the video doesn't test thoroughly enough, but saying "there's no need to test because X would be useless if things didn't work this way" is silly. There is no shortage of talents and abilities in this game (or in Blizzard games in general) that *are* useless because off the odd way they're implemented. Having your attacks capped at a max of 130% bonus CD from weapon sockets wouldn't be too outlandish to believe at all.

Someone really should test properly (i.e. ~20k+ attacks with each setup, with damage numbers for each crit recorded and analyzed).
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05/06/2014 12:23 PMPosted by alienangel
05/06/2014 12:13 PMPosted by mukunda
Stop. The answer is yes. They stack.

There would be no point of dual wield if they didn't stack. You don't need to test anything.


I agree that the video doesn't test thoroughly enough, but saying "there's no need to test because X would be useless if things didn't work this way" is silly. There is no shortage of talents and abilities in this game (or in Blizzard games in general) that *are* useless because off the odd way they're implemented. Having your attacks capped at a max of 130% bonus CD from weapon sockets wouldn't be too outlandish to believe at all.

Someone really should test properly (i.e. ~20k+ attacks with each setup, with damage numbers for each crit recorded and analyzed).


Think about it.

1h equipped with nothing else:

130% crit damage

another 1h equipped:

+15% attack speed for dual wielding
and... plus nothing?

with quiver equipped:

+20% attack speed
+10% crit chance
+15% skill damage
+8% elite damage

Blizzard is not retarded. The crit damage is what makes dual wielding BARELY compete with quivers.
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05/06/2014 12:22 PMPosted by Therion
I've found that it stacks. That said, I ended up going back to the quiver but I did have to give up a little DPS to do it. I just found my toughness was hurting too much, at least at the time.

I was watching my CA+LFB damages when I was testing (at the time my DPS was 900 sheet). The highest crit I could see with the quiver (I was using the same hand crossbow and quiver that is on my DH now) was about 22 million. When I had a secondary crossbow (Izzucob, almost identical specs to my current Condemnation) also with a Flawless Royal, I could occasionally see crits as high as 27 million. When I switched back, I never saw crits that high again until my DPS went up via other gear.


When you tested and said it was almost identical as your condemnation did you care to look at your min and max ranges of both..those are variables that are often overlooked but play a huge roll into what crits you see on your screen.

Im fairly sure if your izzu had a higher min than your condemnation you were using with the quiver..which explains why you occassionaly would see the 27mil
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05/06/2014 12:26 PMPosted by mukunda
05/06/2014 12:23 PMPosted by alienangel
...

I agree that the video doesn't test thoroughly enough, but saying "there's no need to test because X would be useless if things didn't work this way" is silly. There is no shortage of talents and abilities in this game (or in Blizzard games in general) that *are* useless because off the odd way they're implemented. Having your attacks capped at a max of 130% bonus CD from weapon sockets wouldn't be too outlandish to believe at all.

Someone really should test properly (i.e. ~20k+ attacks with each setup, with damage numbers for each crit recorded and analyzed).


Think about it.

1h equipped with nothing else:

130% crit damage

another 1h equipped:

+15% attack speed for dual wielding
and... plus nothing?

with quiver equipped:

+20% attack speed
+10% crit chance
+15% skill damage
+8% elite damage

Blizzard is not retarded. The crit damage is what makes dual wielding BARELY compete with quivers.


No-one is saying the 2nd 1H is "plus nothing". The claim is that it's still +130% CD on the attacks that weapon makes - so when you're choosing between socketing a ruby or emerald in your offhand, the choice isn't between increasing your offhand by 200 dps (ruby) or increasing you mainhand AND offhand by 130% CD (emerald), but between increasing your offhand by 200 dps (ruby) and increasing your offhand by 130% CD (emerald).

Of course that would bring into question whether other primary stats like DEX on a weapon applies to both weapons etc which seems silly.

I'll watch the video after work, but can't we find a level 1 xbow with a really low damage range, roll a socket onto it, and use that to test?
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Easiest way to test:

have a constant mainhand socketed eme wep. Then get an offhand wep with open socket and equip. Now go kill some mobs and and record your highest crit. Try to expand sample until you are sure you already saw the highest crit. Now go back to town and put some eme on that offhand wep you are using. Everything else should be constant. Now go back and kill some more mobs and record highest crit now rhat both wep have eme. Make sure you extend sample until you are comfortable you have already seen the highest crit. Compare results. Problem solved.
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05/06/2014 12:33 PMPosted by alienangel

No-one is saying the 2nd 1H is "plus nothing". The claim is that it's still +130% CD on the attacks that weapon makes - so when you're choosing between socketing a ruby or emerald in your offhand, the choice isn't between increasing your offhand by 200 dps (ruby) or increasing you mainhand AND offhand by 130% CD (emerald), but between increasing your offhand by 200 dps (ruby) and increasing your offhand by 130% CD (emerald).

Of course that would bring into question whether other primary stats like DEX on a weapon applies to both weapons etc which seems silly.

I'll watch the video after work, but can't we find a level 1 xbow with a really low damage range, roll a socket onto it, and use that to test?

OMG. by nothing I mean both weapons have +130% crit damage

WHY WHY WHY would you want another weapon doing the same damage instead of a quiver that boosts everything?

ANSWER: IT STACKS.

I'm starting to think I'm being trolled
Edited by mukunda#1743 on 5/6/2014 12:37 PM PDT
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05/06/2014 12:23 PMPosted by alienangel
05/06/2014 12:13 PMPosted by mukunda
Stop. The answer is yes. They stack.

There would be no point of dual wield if they didn't stack. You don't need to test anything.


I agree that the video doesn't test thoroughly enough, but saying "there's no need to test because X would be useless if things didn't work this way" is silly. There is no shortage of talents and abilities in this game (or in Blizzard games in general) that *are* useless because off the odd way they're implemented. Having your attacks capped at a max of 130% bonus CD from weapon sockets wouldn't be too outlandish to believe at all.

Someone really should test properly (i.e. ~20k+ attacks with each setup, with damage numbers for each crit recorded and analyzed).


I think it's worth testing, just to make sure that it's not a bug, but as far as I can tell, it has always been a given assumption that the gems stack. A quiver gives you so much benefit that the extra 130% CHD from dual-wielding is what allows dual-wielding to cover the extra benefits that a quiver provides. The only reason why it MIGHT not stack is if the game is bugged. But from a design perspective, its obvious that it has always been intended that they stack.
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