Diablo® III

Dual Wield Socets stack - yes or no?

I don't understand why it's even a question. Crit stats are character stats just like dex and vit and you can just see how your stats change on your stat sheet. Just open up your stats window and you have your proof. Or just go ask this in a forum for a class that dual wields. They might be nice enough to only laugh at you
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05/06/2014 12:36 PMPosted by Lucidity

I think it's worth testing, just to make sure that it's not a bug, but as far as I can tell, it has always been a given assumption that the gems stack. A quiver gives you so much benefit that the extra 130% CHD from dual-wielding is what allows dual-wielding to cover the extra benefits that a quiver provides. The only reason why it MIGHT not stack is if the game is bugged. But from a design perspective, its obvious that it has always been intended that they stack.


It's not worth testing. It's not bugged. Do you know how flipped out people would be if it didn't stack?

It increases sheet damage.
It increases crit damage in details.
It Makes Sense.

This thread is filled with ridiculous responses!!
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05/06/2014 12:26 PMPosted by mukunda
05/06/2014 12:23 PMPosted by alienangel
...

I agree that the video doesn't test thoroughly enough, but saying "there's no need to test because X would be useless if things didn't work this way" is silly. There is no shortage of talents and abilities in this game (or in Blizzard games in general) that *are* useless because off the odd way they're implemented. Having your attacks capped at a max of 130% bonus CD from weapon sockets wouldn't be too outlandish to believe at all.

Someone really should test properly (i.e. ~20k+ attacks with each setup, with damage numbers for each crit recorded and analyzed).


Think about it.

1h equipped with nothing else:

130% crit damage

another 1h equipped:

+15% attack speed for dual wielding
and... plus nothing?

with quiver equipped:

+20% attack speed
+10% crit chance
+15% skill damage
+8% elite damage

Blizzard is not retarded. The crit damage is what makes dual wielding BARELY compete with quivers.


You are thinking about it completely backwards...both gems go into effect they just dont stack into your crits.

let me try and explain even further

you have 2 1-h IDENTICAL everything (min/max) etc crossbows on - the numbers you see on screen are 27mil max
you decide to take one crossbow off and replace with irrelevant quiver- the numbers you see on screen are still 27mil max

How?
because each 1-h bow can only do 27mil max per- but with 2 on you are dpsing at a faster rate.

That doesnt mean that one gem is getting ignored- it just means that 260% is never added to one shot from either crossbow.

I hope that helps
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05/06/2014 12:41 PMPosted by mukunda
05/06/2014 12:36 PMPosted by Lucidity

I think it's worth testing, just to make sure that it's not a bug, but as far as I can tell, it has always been a given assumption that the gems stack. A quiver gives you so much benefit that the extra 130% CHD from dual-wielding is what allows dual-wielding to cover the extra benefits that a quiver provides. The only reason why it MIGHT not stack is if the game is bugged. But from a design perspective, its obvious that it has always been intended that they stack.


It's not worth testing. It's not bugged. Do you know how flipped out people would be if it didn't stack?

It increases sheet damage.
It increases crit damage in details.
It Makes Sense.

This thread is filled with ridiculous responses!!


I agree with you that it's probably not bugged, and it does stack. But if nothing else, it's worth testing just to once and for all put down the nonsensical claim that it does not.
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05/06/2014 12:36 PMPosted by mukunda
05/06/2014 12:33 PMPosted by alienangel

No-one is saying the 2nd 1H is "plus nothing". The claim is that it's still +130% CD on the attacks that weapon makes - so when you're choosing between socketing a ruby or emerald in your offhand, the choice isn't between increasing your offhand by 200 dps (ruby) or increasing you mainhand AND offhand by 130% CD (emerald), but between increasing your offhand by 200 dps (ruby) and increasing your offhand by 130% CD (emerald).

Of course that would bring into question whether other primary stats like DEX on a weapon applies to both weapons etc which seems silly.

I'll watch the video after work, but can't we find a level 1 xbow with a really low damage range, roll a socket onto it, and use that to test?

OMG. by nothing I mean both weapons have +130% crit damage

WHY WHY WHY would you want another weapon doing the same damage instead of a quiver that boosts everything?

ANSWER: IT STACKS.

I'm starting to think I'm being trolled


You see to be taking this personally, calm down.

The point I started with was that "it has to work this way because it would be useless if it doesn't" is a terrible justification for concluding how something you didn't implement actually works. Unless Blizzard comes out and explains in detail how it does work, we should just test it.

This is coming from a decade or more of testing how blizzard mechanics works and finding they often are implemented in retarded ways, or in ways that don't match how blizzard claimed they work.
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05/06/2014 12:42 PMPosted by Maverick


You are thinking about it completely backwards...both gems go into effect they just dont stack into your crits.

let me try and explain even further

you have 2 1-h IDENTICAL everything (min/max) etc crossbows on - the numbers you see on screen are 27mil max
you decide to take one crossbow off and replace with irrelevant quiver- the numbers you see on screen are still 27mil max

How?
because each 1-h bow can only do 27mil max per- but with 2 on you are dpsing at a faster rate.

That doesnt mean that one gem is getting ignored- it just means that 260% is never added to one shot from either crossbow.

I hope that helps


You actually attack slower than with a quiver. Quiver can give up to 20% attack speed, dual wield is a 15% bonus.

Again, the only reason dual wielding can compete with a quiver is because of the crit damage stacking.

05/06/2014 12:43 PMPosted by alienangel
You see to be taking this personally, calm down.


Because. You guys are not listening to good reasoning. There is no point to test this because it would be completely broken if it did not stack.
Edited by mukunda#1743 on 5/6/2014 12:47 PM PDT
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05/06/2014 12:43 PMPosted by alienangel
05/06/2014 12:36 PMPosted by mukunda
...
OMG. by nothing I mean both weapons have +130% crit damage

WHY WHY WHY would you want another weapon doing the same damage instead of a quiver that boosts everything?

ANSWER: IT STACKS.

I'm starting to think I'm being trolled


You see to be taking this personally, calm down.

The point I started with was that "it has to work this way because it would be useless if it doesn't" is a terrible justification for concluding how something you didn't implement actually works. Unless Blizzard comes out and explains in detail how it does work, we should just test it.

This is coming from a decade or more of testing how blizzard mechanics works and finding they often are implemented in retarded ways, or in ways that don't match how blizzard claimed they work.


I get his frustration though. The claim that it does not stack flies in the face of so much common sense that it's hard to understand why someone would claim that it does not stack if they haven't done the tests first. It's obvious why it should stack. If you think it does not stack, you need to collect the evidence first, then make the assertion. You can't make the assertion then ask for evidence. If I said the moon is made out of cheese, that is an outlandish claim that goes against all common sense. I would need to first collect evidence that the moon is made out of cheese before I made that claim, not make the claim first, then ask for testing.
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05/06/2014 12:46 PMPosted by mukunda
05/06/2014 12:42 PMPosted by Maverick


You are thinking about it completely backwards...both gems go into effect they just dont stack into your crits.

let me try and explain even further

you have 2 1-h IDENTICAL everything (min/max) etc crossbows on - the numbers you see on screen are 27mil max
you decide to take one crossbow off and replace with irrelevant quiver- the numbers you see on screen are still 27mil max

How?
because each 1-h bow can only do 27mil max per- but with 2 on you are dpsing at a faster rate.

That doesnt mean that one gem is getting ignored- it just means that 260% is never added to one shot from either crossbow.

I hope that helps


You actually attack slower than with a quiver. Quiver can give up to 20% attack speed, dual wield is a 15% bonus.

Again, the only reason dual wielding can compete with a quiver is because of the crit damage stacking.

05/06/2014 12:43 PMPosted by alienangel
You see to be taking this personally, calm down.


Because. You guys are not listening to good reasoning. There is no point to test this because it would be completely broken if it did not stack.


go into game equip two 1-h cross bows
look at your attacks per second
youll have one for your main hand and one for your off hand

now equip a quiver you only have one for main hand.

magic?
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Sorry, it doesn't stack. DW is broken. This is how Blizzard fixed 2H over DW. Only reason you'd DW is to hit faster per second, regen faster, and whatever interesting procs you can get on off-hand.
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05/06/2014 12:53 PMPosted by Arch
Sorry, it doesn't stack. DW is broken. This is how Blizzard fixed 2H over DW. Only reason you'd DW is to hit faster per second, regen faster, and whatever interesting procs you can get on off-hand.


Prove it.
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Agreed, note that I'm happily dualwielding emeralds despite this thread :) I'm not asking Mukundo to go spend days testing this stuff when he's not the one who believes there's a problem. I might do it myself if I can a reasonable way to test it with some confidence without firing thousands of shots and manually noting down the results, but honestly will probably just do the usual go-home-kill-stuff-for-an-hour-then-go-to-bed thing instead. It is a lot easier to test things like this in games that have a combat log.
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05/06/2014 12:32 PMPosted by Maverick
When you tested and said it was almost identical as your condemnation did you care to look at your min and max ranges of both..those are variables that are often overlooked but play a huge roll into what crits you see on your screen.

Im fairly sure if your izzu had a higher min than your condemnation you were using with the quiver..which explains why you occassionaly would see the 27mil


To be honest, I didn't check the min values. I realize that my "testing" couldn't be called all that scientific. But I did specifically want to know which route to go and I do believe the crit damages stack.
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05/06/2014 12:53 PMPosted by Maverick

go into game equip two 1-h cross bows
look at your attacks per second
youll have one for your main hand and one for your off hand

now equip a quiver you only have one for main hand.

magic?


Look at attacks per second. Swap out your second hand for a quiver with 20%. Watch it go higher.

05/06/2014 12:53 PMPosted by Arch
Sorry, it doesn't stack. DW is broken. This is how Blizzard fixed 2H over DW. Only reason you'd DW is to hit faster per second, regen faster, and whatever interesting procs you can get on off-hand.


You attack faster with a quiver than dual wield.

05/06/2014 12:49 PMPosted by Lucidity
I would need to first collect evidence that the moon is made out of cheese before I made that claim, not make the claim first, then ask for testing.


Excellent analogy.
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nothing is broken its working as intended..
you guys are just not understanding the word "stack"

all the damage is still there..its just not a bigger number you see on screen.
one bow does 130% at 27mil the other bow does 130% at 27mil..one shot just cannot be 54mil on screen.

its not that hard
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05/06/2014 12:58 PMPosted by mukunda
05/06/2014 12:53 PMPosted by Maverick

go into game equip two 1-h cross bows
look at your attacks per second
youll have one for your main hand and one for your off hand

now equip a quiver you only have one for main hand.

magic?


Look at attacks per second. Swap out your second hand for a quiver with 20%. Watch it go higher.

05/06/2014 12:53 PMPosted by Arch
Sorry, it doesn't stack. DW is broken. This is how Blizzard fixed 2H over DW. Only reason you'd DW is to hit faster per second, regen faster, and whatever interesting procs you can get on off-hand.


You attack faster with a quiver than dual wield.

05/06/2014 12:49 PMPosted by Lucidity
I would need to first collect evidence that the moon is made out of cheese before I made that claim, not make the claim first, then ask for testing.


Excellent analogy.


are you using your brain at all during your arguments. Im done i tried
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05/06/2014 01:01 PMPosted by Maverick
nothing is broken its working as intended..
you guys are just not understanding the word "stack"

all the damage is still there..its just not a bigger number you see on screen.
one bow does 130% at 27mil the other bow does 130% at 27mil..one shot just cannot be 54mil on screen.

its not that hard


What ? Going from +130% crit damage to +260% crit damage would not double the total amount of damage that you hit for.
Edited by Lucidity#1679 on 5/6/2014 1:03 PM PDT
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05/06/2014 01:01 PMPosted by Maverick
nothing is broken its working as intended..
you guys are just not understanding the word "stack"

all the damage is still there..its just not a bigger number you see on screen.
one bow does 130% at 27mil the other bow does 130% at 27mil..one shot just cannot be 54mil on screen.

its not that hard


You seem to have a misunderstanding of how the damage is calculated.

Say you have 200% crit damage from your gear. Equip a bow with a socket and that raises it to 330%. So each time you crit, the weapon you attacked with has it's damage raised by 330%.

If you equip a quiver, you have a more often chance of that damage occuring, plus additional bonuses such as skill% or increased elite damage.

If you equip another 1hander, your crit damage will be raised to 460%, so if one of your weapon's crit, it will have 460% increased damage.

Now tell me, if they didn't stack and both weapons still only dealt 330% increased damage on crit, why on earth would I dual wield instead of using a quiver?
Edited by mukunda#1743 on 5/6/2014 1:06 PM PDT
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05/06/2014 01:03 PMPosted by Lucidity
05/06/2014 01:01 PMPosted by Maverick
nothing is broken its working as intended..
you guys are just not understanding the word "stack"

all the damage is still there..its just not a bigger number you see on screen.
one bow does 130% at 27mil the other bow does 130% at 27mil..one shot just cannot be 54mil on screen.

its not that hard


What ? Going from +130% crit damage to +260% crit damage would not double the total amount of damage that you hit for.


if that was the only crit damage you had than yessir it would. stop trying to make counter arguments that arent proving helpful to the overall concern of this thread. ffs use some brain power
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this guy...
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If anyone wants to test this, I can't believe I'm writing this, grab an initiates hand crossbow and put it in your main hand, equip a +min damage ring, if you have one. Then put your socketed hand crossbow in your off hand w/no gem. Use Sharpshooter and hit a mob with Fan of Knives (uses main hand only). Record the yellow number. Repeat the process w/Emerald in off hand.

There will be no variance in damage with a 3-4 initiates hand crossbow plus min damage ring.

If your yellow damage goes up when using FoK, CHD from the off hand sracks with the MH.

I won't be holding my breath.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 5/6/2014 1:24 PM PDT
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