Diablo® III

Dual Wield Socets stack - yes or no?

05/06/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Tanakeah
I've been doing some playing around with this and have been taking off my second hand crossbow in my profile, the Izzuccob and running with just the Nat's Slayer. From what I could observe by using Cluster Arrow with the rest of my gear on, the highest crit I saw was approximately 18,500,000. This was on white trash mobs with no buff up...no MFD, no Harrington, no wolf buff, and nothing to gain from the Unity I have. This was done for about 30 minutes or so while running around and observing in Torment I on the Act III bounties. I saw no other numbers higher than that and I looked very hard to make sure and I also made very sure to keep enough distance between me and mobs so that Steady Aim was up and running.

I then put the Izzuccob back on and ran around some more and observed nothing but my Cluster Arrow crit numbers when I could. Again, put some time into it and eventually I saw my highest crit peek at approximately 22,500,000 on white trash mobs with zero buffs up, and again, just like above I had Steady Aim running and checked to make sure. Now, I know that without the Izzu equipped I lose out on some Dexterity, but even 726 dexterity is NOT going to be anywhere near enough to overcome a 4,000,000 damage difference in the highest crit values that I could see. I was also trying my best to get rough estimates from my observations about the average crit numbers that I was seeing, and while that was a bit difficult, what I saw was:

1. Without Izzu and the 125% crit damage gem, my CAs averaged around 14-15 million.
2. With it equipped my crits were around 16-18 million.

Again, I am very well aware that this isn't perfect and that the DPS difference between the bows could be tighter. I may get my Danetta set out since those are a bit closer in terms of damage and could try them out for more time. However, for what I have been doing, it seems that to me the crit damage gem in the offhand is stacking as it should and both hand crossbows are benefiting from the added crit damage. More testing will certainly help, but as it stands right now, I don't believe the crit gems aren't stacking properly.


You need two bows with the same min/max to effectively test this as well as dex..your nats and you izzu have different min/max ranges

I cannot stress enough how important min/max ranges play into the visual crits you see on screen

you also need the same/similar visual dps..with no modifiers on either weapon

To accommodate testing with quiver make sure you have simlar dex as you did your offhand
Edited by Maverick#1553 on 5/6/2014 2:31 PM PDT
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Oh I know, I can do that later on, but I will have to have a quiver that doesn't have Cluster Arrow% damage on it, which I currently don't have. I know the two bows have different min-max ranges, but I also know my Izzu would never perform that 22,500,000 crit and I could simply just test that bow by itself. Although that would mean switching some gear around to accommodate, but I would guess with decent probability that I'd never be able to associate that crit with the Izzu and that it was coming from Nat's.

As I said, I have two Danetta bows that have very similar stats so I can use those to try out, will just have to dig around and get a quiver, but I'm not expecting much difference.
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05/06/2014 02:29 PMPosted by Maverick
05/06/2014 02:12 PMPosted by Tanakeah
I've been doing some playing around with this and have been taking off my second hand crossbow in my profile, the Izzuccob and running with just the Nat's Slayer. From what I could observe by using Cluster Arrow with the rest of my gear on, the highest crit I saw was approximately 18,500,000. This was on white trash mobs with no buff up...no MFD, no Harrington, no wolf buff, and nothing to gain from the Unity I have. This was done for about 30 minutes or so while running around and observing in Torment I on the Act III bounties. I saw no other numbers higher than that and I looked very hard to make sure and I also made very sure to keep enough distance between me and mobs so that Steady Aim was up and running.

I then put the Izzuccob back on and ran around some more and observed nothing but my Cluster Arrow crit numbers when I could. Again, put some time into it and eventually I saw my highest crit peek at approximately 22,500,000 on white trash mobs with zero buffs up, and again, just like above I had Steady Aim running and checked to make sure. Now, I know that without the Izzu equipped I lose out on some Dexterity, but even 726 dexterity is NOT going to be anywhere near enough to overcome a 4,000,000 damage difference in the highest crit values that I could see. I was also trying my best to get rough estimates from my observations about the average crit numbers that I was seeing, and while that was a bit difficult, what I saw was:

1. Without Izzu and the 125% crit damage gem, my CAs averaged around 14-15 million.
2. With it equipped my crits were around 16-18 million.

Again, I am very well aware that this isn't perfect and that the DPS difference between the bows could be tighter. I may get my Danetta set out since those are a bit closer in terms of damage and could try them out for more time. However, for what I have been doing, it seems that to me the crit damage gem in the offhand is stacking as it should and both hand crossbows are benefiting from the added crit damage. More testing will certainly help, but as it stands right now, I don't believe the crit gems aren't stacking properly.


You need two bows with the same min/max to effectively test this as well as dex..your nats and you izzu have different min/max ranges

I cannot stress enough how important min/max ranges play into the visual crits you see on screen

you also need the same/similar visual dps..with no modifiers on either weapon

To accommodate testing with quiver make sure you have simlar dex as you did your offhand


The izzu has a lower min/max range than his nats slayer. So if the gem really does not stack as you claim, then when he puts the izzu on, he should be averaging lower damage on hits crits, not more. The fact that the Izzu has a lower damage range, yet he still averages higher crits with it on, suggests that your hypothesis is bunk. Of course, he could just keep his izzu on and unsocket the gem instead of removing the izzu to keep his dex the same, but I dont think the guy wants to blow half a million gold to be testing YOUR hypothesis for you. That's your job.
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<span class="truncated">...</span>

Theres other things to consider such as min/max that cannot be overlooked when seeing the numbers


Then go do a better test yourself. You're the one advancing the opinion that's not accepted by the community. Most people here do not agree with you, and you still haven't explained to me WHY you think it works the way you described, other than because some dude in a video said so. It's your job to provide a better test if you're advancing the unaccepted opinion.


Why the image is 100% concrete evidence: (assuming that I wasn't lying about getting enough samples to test with)

What makes 3.3mil go to 4.5mil? 750 dex is maybe +5% damage, +5% is 3.4mil. +130% crit stacking pushes 3.3 to around 4.2 mil. (with my crit damage amount). The image shows 4.5mil which is unexplainable if the crit damage did not stack.
Edited by mukunda#1743 on 5/6/2014 2:43 PM PDT
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05/06/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Tanakeah
Oh I know, I can do that later on, but I will have to have a quiver that doesn't have Cluster Arrow% damage on it, which I currently don't have. I know the two bows have different min-max ranges, but I also know my Izzu would never perform that 22,500,000 crit and I could simply just test that bow by itself. Although that would mean switching some gear around to accommodate, but I would guess with decent probability that I'd never be able to associate that crit with the Izzu and that it was coming from Nat's.

As I said, I have two Danetta bows that have very similar stats so I can use those to try out, will just have to dig around and get a quiver, but I'm not expecting much difference.


If you want to eat the unsocket cost, just unsocket the izzucob and keep it equiped. That way, your dex stays the same but the only thing that changes is the loss of the 125% crit damage from the gem.
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@Lucidity

Yeah, I can afford the gem unsocketing no problem. I might try a little more later tonight to see if I can't come up with some more numbers.
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05/06/2014 02:37 PMPosted by Lucidity
05/06/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Tanakeah
Oh I know, I can do that later on, but I will have to have a quiver that doesn't have Cluster Arrow% damage on it, which I currently don't have. I know the two bows have different min-max ranges, but I also know my Izzu would never perform that 22,500,000 crit and I could simply just test that bow by itself. Although that would mean switching some gear around to accommodate, but I would guess with decent probability that I'd never be able to associate that crit with the Izzu and that it was coming from Nat's.

As I said, I have two Danetta bows that have very similar stats so I can use those to try out, will just have to dig around and get a quiver, but I'm not expecting much difference.


If you want to eat the unsocket cost, just unsocket the izzucob and keep it equiped. That way, your dex stays the same but the only thing that changes is the loss of the 125% crit damage from the gem.


i would just switch both weapons to a pair of level 30 1handers with a socket. No need to use your real weapons - have 1 level 30 junk weapon with no stats and a socket, and a similar one with the same damage range and a gem socketed.

Also test by shooting one of those A3 things that deathgrip you in but otherwise don't attack you, and don't use cluster arrow (way too many numbers, and tends to kill stuff), just shoot your autoattacks, or something like Entangling shot, so it's clear what number you're seeing and which weapon it's from. And take your other CD gear/passives off so all your CD is from weapons+base 50%. Can use Sharpshooter to guaranteed crits.

And I'm not suggesting you guys go do all this work, I'll try it myself over the weekend. But I'm at work now, and you guys seem to be putting a lot of effort into testing it already, just testing it in kind of less-than-useful ways by using your regular gear and attacks like CA:LFB, so might as well suggest ways to make it more useful.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wg0ZOmmMaI

In the video i use a helltrapper (dps 2496)
+1025-1255 poison damage
+692 dex

min/max range - 1151- 1969

and tenclip (dps 2486)
1019-1249 poison damage
+666 dex

min/max - 1145- 1963

quiver i replace has 657..takes the spot of tenclip

as you can see these are nearly identical.

Hope this video helps clarify things
Edited by Maverick#1553 on 5/6/2014 3:27 PM PDT
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Im uploading a video now with details


Dude, I already provided evidence against your theory here:


you have 2 1-h IDENTICAL everything (min/max) etc crossbows on - the numbers you see on screen are 27mil max
you decide to take one crossbow off and replace with irrelevant quiver- the numbers you see on screen are still 27mil max


My images show 25% more high-end damage with 2 similar socketed weapons equipped rather than one.

What makes 3.3mil go to 4.5mil? 750 dex is maybe +5% damage, +5% is 3.4mil. +130% crit stacking pushes 3.3 to around 4.2 mil. (with my crit damage amount). The image shows 4.5mil which is unexplainable if the crit damage did not stack.
Edited by mukunda#1743 on 5/6/2014 3:28 PM PDT
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Im uploading a video now with details


Dude, I already provided evidence against your theory here:


you have 2 1-h IDENTICAL everything (min/max) etc crossbows on - the numbers you see on screen are 27mil max
you decide to take one crossbow off and replace with irrelevant quiver- the numbers you see on screen are still 27mil max


My images show 25% more high-end damage with 2 socketed weapons equipped.

What makes 3.3mil go to 4.5mil? 750 dex is maybe +5% damage, +5% is 3.4mil. +130% crit stacking pushes 3.3 to around 4.2 mil. (with my crit damage amount). The image shows 4.5mil which is unexplainable if the crit damage did not stack.


i uploaded it for you chief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wg0ZOmmMaI

In the video i use a helltrapper (dps 2496)
+1025-1255 poison damage
+692 dex

min/max range - 1151- 1969

and tenclip (dps 2486)
1019-1249 poison damage
+666 dex

min/max - 1145- 1963

quiver i replace has 657..takes the spot of tenclip

as you can see these are nearly identical.

Hope this video helps clarify things
Edited by Maverick#1553 on 5/6/2014 3:29 PM PDT
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http://imgur.com/ir12suQ

Boom.
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<span class="truncated">...</span>

Dude, I already provided evidence against your theory here:

<span class="truncated">...</span>

My images show 25% more high-end damage with 2 socketed weapons equipped.

<span class="truncated">...</span>


i uploaded it for you chief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wg0ZOmmMaI

In the video i use a helltrapper (dps 2496)
+1025-1255 poison damage
+692 dex

min/max range - 1151- 1969

and tenclip (dps 2486)
1019-1249 poison damage
+666 dex

min/max - 1145- 1963

quiver i replace has 657..takes the spot of tenclip

as you can see these are nearly identical.

Hope this video helps clarify things


Are we even watching the same video ? Go rewatch that video yourself. In the first instance, your crit ranged from 1.5 mil to 2.8 mil. In the second instance, your crit ranged from 1 mil to 2.1 mil. That is a substantial difference, and yet you claim that they are"pretty much the same." I disagree.

Your own evidence that you yourself provided does not back your claim.
Edited by Lucidity#1679 on 5/6/2014 3:38 PM PDT
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did you watch the whole thing lucidity? at the end you will see 2 crits in the 2.5-2.8 range with the 1h and quiver.. just because i hit some lowends there doesnt mean anything theres no huge difference demonstrated

there are also low crits with the duels

but sure continue to argue
Edited by Maverick#1553 on 5/6/2014 3:38 PM PDT
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05/06/2014 03:37 PMPosted by Maverick
did you watch the whole thing lucidity? at the end you will see 2 crits in the 2.5-2.8 range with the 1h and quiver.. just because i hit some lowends there doesnt mean anything theres no huge difference demonstrated

there are also low crits with the duels

but sure continue to argue


Yea, I looked at the end, and the highest you ever got with the second test was 2.5 mil. No higher. You also fired a lot more shots for the second test and it took way more shots to hit 2.5 mil. Your very first crit in the first test hit 2.6 mil, and despite firing far fewer shots, you routinely hit for more damage. I'm not convinced.
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Dude, I watched the whole thing, these were your highest crits for each session: http://imgur.com/ir12suQ

EDIT: I didn't watch the end, but as lucidity points out it was still 2.5 max;

Do I need to add up all of the crits on screen and get the average?
Edited by mukunda#1743 on 5/6/2014 3:42 PM PDT
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You do that. But instead of switching the quiver in and out, how about you just keep the crossbows on and unsocket the gem. You know, for the sake of consistent testing.
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I've been running Calamity+Quiver for a couple weeks. I recently switched to DW.

Yeah, my crits are higher. I mean obviously higher. Like I have zero doubt they are higher.

Sometimes when something is obvious through observation it just doesn't need to be proven through scientific method.

But hey I believe in experiential learning.
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05/06/2014 03:46 PMPosted by Lucidity
You do that. But instead of switching the quiver in and out, how about you just keep the crossbows on and unsocket the gem. You know, for the sake of consistent testing.


it wont work that way because you will still be criting with the 1-h that is unsocketed which will yield lower crit numbers.

Think of it as alternative crits

id have to have 0% crit damage completely to truly test it that way
Edited by Maverick#1553 on 5/6/2014 3:51 PM PDT
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These are the crits from that video Maverick:

With dual wield:

2608k
1594k
2679k
1794k
1807k
2804k
1976k

average: 2180k

Without extra gem:

1552k
2104k
1058k
1903k
1357k
1724k
1535k
1890k
1646k
2515k
2495k
1841k
1753k
1392k

average: 1768k

Are you done now?
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