Diablo® III

[spoiler]Second exp. What ending do you wish?

I hate what happened with Diablo I main character (we "become" Aidan) and all canonically topic about "who did what". Personaly i prefer what Blizzard did with Diablo II: Heroes are simply part of the humankind who fight evil, without specific names, and plot of cinematics tell about other people (Marius) and things not conditioned from us. But though i don't like Nephalem quoted in Diablo III, i love much more "corruption" topic of Reaper of Souls ending. This also because could be great a second exp. ending where Nephalems close its path and Blizzard will not forced to create another character like Aidan in future.

A simple ideas are:
- All Nephalem going crazy for their powers and becomes Boss in Diablo IV
- They create a new WorldStone that stop future Heaven or Hell attacks and disperse Nephalems powers
- Final Sacrifice/death

Another good idea for next exp. could be two ending: one for our character and one for all, where first one follow our allineament. Allinament could follow two entity that we don't see in this game: Lilith and Inarius. I said Nephalems ending should be bad...and this two guys are not good (they could be Chaos and Order if you want).

Examples

Cinematic ending: Show what happen to Sanctuary, Tyrael, Follower, etc.
"Scroll" ending (good or lawful): Inarius finds a way to control Nephalems. We sacrifice ourself to stop him.
Alternative "Scroll" ending (Bad or chaos): Lilith seduces Nephalem. He/we going crazy or are bainshed in another dimension.

What do you thinks?
What ending do you wish for second expansion?

P.S: Sorry for my english
Edited by Tyrion#2910 on 5/21/2014 7:02 AM PDT
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for the next expac i want us to save inarius.
inarius is currently in hell being tortured
i dont care much about what the next expac is about, i just want to save inarius
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05/20/2014 07:46 AMPosted by FoxxPyre
for the next expac i want us to save inarius.
inarius is currently in hell being tortured
i dont care much about what the next expac is about, i just want to save inarius


If there's anything left for him to save. He's not just being tortured physically but mentally. All he's seen for centuries is his broken form and his own agony. Mentally.. there might not be any inarius left.
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100 Night Elf Death Knight
5400
Posts: 1,528
Aw hell no. I'd like the next xpac to the getting things in order. The Nephalen are here, they're here to stay, and they're not letting anyone kick the ground out from under them again. Humans aren't prey and pawns to heaven and hell anymore. Screw returning their bedammed status quo.
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05/20/2014 04:22 AMPosted by Tyrion
I hate what happened with Diablo I main character (we "become" Aidan) and all canonically topic about "who did what". Personaly i prefer what Blizzard do with Diablo II: Heroes are simply part of the humanity who fight evil, without specific names, and plot of cinematics tell about other people (Marius) and things not conditioned from us. But though i don't like Nephalem quoted in Diablo III, i love much more "corruption" topic of Reaper of Souls ending. This also because could be great a second exp. ending where Nephalems close its path and Blizzard will not forced to create another character like Aidan in future.

A simple ideas are:
- All Nephalem going crazy for their powers and becomes Boss in Diablo IV
- They create a new WorldStone that stop future Heaven or Hell attacks and disperse Nephalems powers
- Final Sacrifice/death

Another good idea for next exp. could be two ending: one for our character and one for all, where first one follow our allineament. Allinament could follow two entity that we don't see in this game: Lilith and Inarius. I said Nephalems ending should be bad...and this two guys are not good (they could be Chaos and Order if you want).

Examples

Cinematic ending: Show what happen to Sanctuary, Tyrael, Follower, etc.
"Scroll" ending (good or lawful): Inarius finds a way to control Nephalems. We sacrifice ourself to stop him.
Alternative "Scroll" ending (Bad or chaos): Lilith seduces Nephalem. He/we going crazy or are bainshed in another dimension.

What do you thinks?
What ending do you wish for second expansion?

P.S: Sorry for my english


I'd like a neutral-to-bad ending. The Nephalem being OP doesn't make sense and it's boring.

I'm hoping someone will find another Worldstone in a different dimension and/or find a weakness or some sort of kryptonite for the Nephalem. Go back to a horror theme and maybe throw in an eldritch abomination or two.
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05/20/2014 10:39 PMPosted by Stingray
05/20/2014 04:22 AMPosted by Tyrion
I hate what happened with Diablo I main character (we "become" Aidan) and all canonically topic about "who did what". Personaly i prefer what Blizzard do with Diablo II: Heroes are simply part of the humanity who fight evil, without specific names, and plot of cinematics tell about other people (Marius) and things not conditioned from us. But though i don't like Nephalem quoted in Diablo III, i love much more "corruption" topic of Reaper of Souls ending. This also because could be great a second exp. ending where Nephalems close its path and Blizzard will not forced to create another character like Aidan in future.

A simple ideas are:
- All Nephalem going crazy for their powers and becomes Boss in Diablo IV
- They create a new WorldStone that stop future Heaven or Hell attacks and disperse Nephalems powers
- Final Sacrifice/death

Another good idea for next exp. could be two ending: one for our character and one for all, where first one follow our allineament. Allinament could follow two entity that we don't see in this game: Lilith and Inarius. I said Nephalems ending should be bad...and this two guys are not good (they could be Chaos and Order if you want).

Examples

Cinematic ending: Show what happen to Sanctuary, Tyrael, Follower, etc.
"Scroll" ending (good or lawful): Inarius finds a way to control Nephalems. We sacrifice ourself to stop him.
Alternative "Scroll" ending (Bad or chaos): Lilith seduces Nephalem. He/we going crazy or are bainshed in another dimension.

What do you thinks?
What ending do you wish for second expansion?

P.S: Sorry for my english


I'd like a neutral-to-bad ending. The Nephalem being OP doesn't make sense and it's boring.

I'm hoping someone will find another Worldstone in a different dimension and/or find a weakness or some sort of kryptonite for the Nephalem. Go back to a horror theme and maybe throw in an eldritch abomination or two.


Why doesn't it make sense for the Nephalem to be "Op"? They were that way in the sin war. It's been a major plot point in the story even before D3.
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100 Night Elf Death Knight
5400
Posts: 1,528
Because people are socially hardwired to think that humans should always kowtow to "divine" powers, and that people who don't, even in fiction settings, are untrustworthy or outright evil.
Edited by Highlord#1105 on 5/21/2014 7:44 AM PDT
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05/21/2014 06:55 AMPosted by Reslin
Why doesn't it make sense for the Nephalem to be "Op"? They were that way in the sin war. It's been a major plot point in the story even before D3.


The lore's logic contradicts itself. Before Anu attempted to purge himself, he was everything and thus "balanced". The "balance" supposedly made him powerful/cohesive, but when he tried to get rid of his flaws he couldn't or didn't.

Because the Nephalem are "balanced", they should be equal in power to angels and demons. They're only "closer" to Anu by one faction, and Anu was everything. Surely, there are other creatures that have more mixed bloodlines than the Nephalem.

Not to mention, the current Nephalem aren't as powerful as Uldyssian. The Nephalem couldn't break Azmodan's gate, they couldn't destroy the corruptions in Heaven without Auriel's blessing, and they couldn't take on Malthael without empowering themselves with Death's essence. Yet, Uldyssian could apparently erase a demon out of existence by thinking about it.

05/21/2014 07:43 AMPosted by Aldones
Because people are socially hardwired to think that humans should always kowtow to "divine" powers, and that people who don't, even in fiction settings, are untrustworthy or outright evil.


Factions being more powerful than humanity are ubiquitous in stories because it's the easiest and most efficient way to set up a conflict. Without conflict, you can't have a story. Are there plenty of bad stories with the weaker humans and more powerful enemies? Sure there are. But you cannot write a protagonist/hero that can easily defeat any opposition and have a good story. Any writer will subconsciously resort to inserting any sort of conflict, which usually degenerates into the protagonist/hero whining for no good reason, if not an event contradicting earlier rules/continuity/facts how and why the protagonist/hero is OP in the first place.

The writing department is trying to have it both ways, but they can't.
Edited by Stingray#1382 on 5/21/2014 2:59 PM PDT
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05/21/2014 02:57 PMPosted by Stingray
The lore's logic contradicts itself. Before Anu attempted to purge himself, he was everything and thus "balanced". The "balance" supposedly made him powerful/cohesive, but when he tried to get rid of his flaws he couldn't or didn't.

Because the Nephalem are "balanced", they should be equal in power to angels and demons. They're only "closer" to Anu by one faction, and Anu was everything. Surely, there are other creatures that have more mixed bloodlines than the Nephalem.


Sorry...maybe i'm a moron but i don't understand. Why this is a contradiction?
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05/21/2014 02:57 PMPosted by Stingray
05/21/2014 06:55 AMPosted by Reslin
Why doesn't it make sense for the Nephalem to be "Op"? They were that way in the sin war. It's been a major plot point in the story even before D3.


The lore's logic contradicts itself. Before Anu attempted to purge himself, he was everything and thus "balanced". The "balance" supposedly made him powerful/cohesive, but when he tried to get rid of his flaws he couldn't or didn't.

Because the Nephalem are "balanced", they should be equal in power to angels and demons. They're only "closer" to Anu by one faction, and Anu was everything. Surely, there are other creatures that have more mixed bloodlines than the Nephalem.

Not to mention, the current Nephalem aren't as powerful as Uldyssian. The Nephalem couldn't break Azmodan's gate, they couldn't destroy the corruptions in Heaven without Auriel's blessing, and they couldn't take on Malthael without empowering themselves with Death's essence. Yet, Uldyssian could apparently erase a demon out of existence by thinking about it.

05/21/2014 07:43 AMPosted by Aldones
Because people are socially hardwired to think that humans should always kowtow to "divine" powers, and that people who don't, even in fiction settings, are untrustworthy or outright evil.


Factions being more powerful than humanity are ubiquitous in stories because it's the easiest and most efficient way to set up a conflict. Without conflict, you can't have a story. Are there plenty of bad stories with the weaker humans and more powerful enemies? Sure there are. But you cannot write a protagonist/hero that can easily defeat any opposition and have a good story. Any writer will subconsciously resort to inserting any sort of conflict, which usually degenerates into the protagonist/hero whining for no good reason, if not an event contradicting earlier rules/continuity/facts how and why the protagonist/hero is OP in the first place.

The writing department is trying to have it both ways, but they can't.


Sorry. It doesn't work that way. Lore states that we have the blood of angels and demons with the potential to be far greater than either. Not to mention Itharael straight up tells us that we are as strong as uldyssian. So us not being as powerful as him is wrong. Why can't we destroy the gates or the corruptions? No idea. Maybe we are still limited not being a pure angel. We can't "purify things" but that's speculation. All in all. We are that powerful and the explanation why the demons of hell and the angels stand no chance is because we're Nephalem.

Call it bad writing but this is an action rpg. The closest comparison you can make is Shonen anime like DBZ, Naruto, and bleach. Where the characters, due to special heirtage, have the power to continuously grow in power and dwarf the enemies before them.
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05/22/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Reslin
Sorry. It doesn't work that way


I don't want to misunderstand you, but what exactly do you mean by this?

05/22/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Reslin
Not to mention Itharael straight up tells us that we are as strong as uldyssian. So us not being as powerful as him is wrong.


In-game events contradicts what he says. The Nephalem were helpless against the Azmodan's gate until Tyrael destroyed it, the illusion wall until Eirena removed it, the corruptions, and they couldn't take on Malthael without the Death's essence. If they were just as powerful as Uldyssian, none of that would've been a problem.

Why can't we destroy the gates or the corruptions? No idea. Maybe we are still limited not being a pure angel. We can't "purify things" but that's speculation. We are that powerful and the explanation why the demons of hell and the angels stand no chance is because we're Nephalem.


Again, if Itherael was correct, the corruptions would've been nothing to the Nephalem. Which brings me to my next point: the Nephalem could have erased the opposition out of existence by thinking about it/wishing it.

05/22/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Reslin
Call it bad writing but this is an action rpg.


Yes, D3's writing is bad, and has the same problems as numerous other fanfics written by preteens. Just because it's an ARPG doesn't protect itself from criticism on the writing. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2 had some criticism too.

05/22/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Reslin
The closest comparison you can make is Shonen anime like DBZ, Naruto, and bleach. Where the characters, due to special heirtage, have the power to continuously grow in power and dwarf the enemies before them.


Yes, but Naruto had more consistent internal logic (especially in the beginning), better dialogue and characterization than this game.

It's common for editors and beta-readers to criticize an original fiction by likening it to DBZ, though beta-readers will say it more often.

I wasn't expecting D3's story to be a masterpiece, but I wasn't expecting the quality of a fanfic written by a preteen either. D3 was sold as a dark fantasy/horror game; it was anything but. Having an OP character drains any darkness, horror, or conflict to any story.

The story has basic and numerous glaring problems, which could've been caught and fixed before release.
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05/22/2014 05:48 PMPosted by Stingray
05/22/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Reslin
Sorry. It doesn't work that way


I don't want to misunderstand you, but what exactly do you mean by this?

05/22/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Reslin
Not to mention Itharael straight up tells us that we are as strong as uldyssian. So us not being as powerful as him is wrong.


In-game events contradicts what he says. The Nephalem were helpless against the Azmodan's gate until Tyrael destroyed it, the illusion wall until Eirena removed it, the corruptions, and they couldn't take on Malthael without the Death's essence. If they were just as powerful as Uldyssian, none of that would've been a problem.

Why can't we destroy the gates or the corruptions? No idea. Maybe we are still limited not being a pure angel. We can't "purify things" but that's speculation. We are that powerful and the explanation why the demons of hell and the angels stand no chance is because we're Nephalem.


Again, if Itherael was correct, the corruptions would've been nothing to the Nephalem. Which brings me to my next point: the Nephalem could have erased the opposition out of existence by thinking about it/wishing it.

05/22/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Reslin
Call it bad writing but this is an action rpg.


Yes, D3's writing is bad, and has the same problems as numerous other fanfics written by preteens. Just because it's an ARPG doesn't protect itself from criticism on the writing. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2 had some criticism too.

05/22/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Reslin
The closest comparison you can make is Shonen anime like DBZ, Naruto, and bleach. Where the characters, due to special heirtage, have the power to continuously grow in power and dwarf the enemies before them.


Yes, but Naruto had more consistent internal logic (especially in the beginning), better dialogue and characterization than this game.

It's common for editors and beta-readers to criticize an original fiction by likening it to DBZ, though beta-readers will say it more often.

I wasn't expecting D3's story to be a masterpiece, but I wasn't expecting the quality of a fanfic written by a preteen either. D3 was sold as a dark fantasy/horror game; it was anything but. Having an OP character drains any darkness, horror, or conflict to any story.

The story has basic and numerous glaring problems, which could've been caught and fixed before release.


It doesn't matter that our characters can't remove certain things. This isn't a "Raw power" kind of deal. More of a "purification." In terms of raw power, we rivaled uldyssian in Act 4. This was stated by Itharael who knows very well who Uldyssian is.

The "sorry it doesn't work that way." had to do with most of your comments about "Mixed heritage." It's stated within the lore that the reason Nephalem are so powerful is because they have angelic and demon blood coursing through them. They have the powers of Angels and Demons with the potential to be so much more than either. Why were we strong enough to defeat the prime evil? The being that is the accumulation of all the evils? Because we're Nephalem. That's the way it works in diablo 3. It doesn't matter. You look at it from the standpoint of "Half Demon. Half Angel = One whole." That's not the logic Diablo uses and it's been this way even since the sin war trilogy.

Nephalem are potentially stronger than any angel/demon can ever hope to be even if they use certain creations (created by Nephalem) to enhance themselves. You can point to the corruption thing and claim we're not as strong as uldyssian for not being able to remove it. I can point to the fact that Malthael could not be touched by anything that isn't the aspect of death and we achieved said aspect.

Why would us "Thinking and wiping something out of existence" need to be what is required to make "Itharael's" assumptions correct?

I admit the storytelling isn't great. Probably not even "Okay." The story has numerous problems even plot holes but the thing is canon is still canon even if you don't like it. We're as strong as uldyssian by Act 4. Plot holes aside it doesn't matter. We're stronger than any angel/demon can hope to be because "We're Nephalem." that's also fact. The story is also about "Insert villain here does ___ to gain greater power! But you are so powerful it doesn't even matter!" We're the closest thing to Anu and it's because we're Angel/Demon instead of just angel or demon. There's also no beings that can claim the same.

Look at the Khazra. They were beasts. They gained power by a demon sharing it's blood with them. So they are beasts with demon blood coursing through their veins. Why can't they rival us? Simple, no angel blood. Yet they can rival demons because of they have part of it. It's kind of like the underworld movie logic.

The guy becomes part werewolf part vampires and it makes him stronger than both.
Edited by Reslin#1758 on 5/22/2014 9:36 PM PDT
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05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
It doesn't matter that our characters can't remove certain things.


It matters because all the actions in the game are canon and in the lore.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
In terms of raw power, we rivaled uldyssian in Act 4. This was stated by Itharael who knows very well who Uldyssian is.


The Nephalem and Uldyssian could've done nearly whatever they wanted. It's very heavily implied that with the Nephalem raw power trumps everything.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
This was stated by Itharael who knows very well who Uldyssian is.


Itherael only knows Uldyssian "well" because the plot demanded it, or it other words when the devs wanted him to. He can't see Nephalem but can hear them and they're not on the Scroll of Fate. He somehow knew with conviction that they'd be potentially more powerful than anything/anyone after Uldyssian had sacrificed himself, even though the Angiris Council just discovered humanity. For all he knew or knows, there could be a gigantic weakness in the Nephalem that angels and demons could easily counter, or maybe actually generally weaker than he thinks. In Act 4, Itherael says he's frustrated that he doesn't know anything about humanity/the Nephalem and had no time to study them. He's guessing (or logically should be) at best, but whatever Itherael says is somehow regarded as fact.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
The "sorry it doesn't work that way." had to do with most of your comments about "Mixed heritage." It's stated within the lore that the reason Nephalem are so powerful is because they have angelic and demon blood coursing through them. They have the powers of Angels and Demons with the potential to be so much more than either. Why were we strong enough to defeat the prime evil? The being that is the accumulation of all the evils? Because we're Nephalem. That's the way it works in diablo 3. It doesn't matter. You look at it from the standpoint of "Half Demon. Half Angel = One whole." That's not the logic Diablo uses and it's been this way even since the sin war trilogy.


It's very heavily implied that the reason the Nephalem are that powerful is that they're closer to Anu.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
Nephalem are potentially stronger than any angel/demon can ever hope to be even if they use certain creations (created by Nephalem) to enhance themselves.


This also contradicts the whole point with the origins of Sanctuary. The renegade angels and demons voluntarily corrupted and purified one and created a world together. They should get that powerful as the Nephalem if they use Nephalem creations voluntarily.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
You can point to the corruption thing and claim we're not as strong as uldyssian for not being able to remove it. I can point to the fact that Malthael could not be touched by anything that isn't the aspect of death and we achieved said aspect.


The story shows that, for the most part, the Nephalem are only as strong when the plot demands it. It's what often happens when there are very few or no rules to magic in a story.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
Why would us "Thinking and wiping something out of existence" need to be what is required to make "Itharael's" assumptions correct?


That's what Uldyssian did because he was that powerful. He was so powerful that he couldn't even (or barely) control his power. That's pretty confusing.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
I admit the storytelling isn't great. Probably not even "Okay." The story has numerous problems even plot holes but the thing is canon is still canon even if you don't like it. We're as strong as uldyssian by Act 4.


That's what the devs and the lore keeps telling us, but it's showing us the opposite. The biggest mistake authors make is telling the audience X, when it's showing us Y.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
Plot holes aside it doesn't matter.


It does if one is trying to make sense of things and is considering the quality of the story.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
We're stronger than any angel/demon can hope to be because "We're Nephalem." that's also fact. The story is also about "Insert villain here does ___ to gain greater power! But you are so powerful it doesn't even matter!"


Yes, and it's a bad one. Common advice from professional writers is to never make powerful heroes/protagonists that can't be defeated in a story. It's a qualifier for the Mary Sue/Gary Stu tests. This ties into the advice that an author must give the heroes/protagonists weaknesses, especially ones that they can't compensate for. "We're Nephalem" is the equivalent of "just because".
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05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
Look at the Khazra. They were beasts. They gained power by a demon sharing it's blood with them. So they are beasts with demon blood coursing through their veins. Why can't they rival us? Simple, no angel blood. Yet they can rival demons because of they have part of it. It's kind of like the underworld movie logic.


This also makes zero sense. The renegade angels and demons used the Worldstone to create Sanctuary and everything living on it. The Worldstone was of angelic origin. So, everything there was of angelic and demonic progeny, hence it became "balanced". Angels kind of have blood, but they also have inner light and the things that they create, particularly weapons, are extensions of themselves. The beasts should technically be Nephalem/have Nephalem powers.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
Yet they can rival demons because of they have part of it. It's kind of like the underworld movie logic.

The guy becomes part werewolf part vampires and it makes him stronger than both.


Yes, and the Underworld movie logic was picked apart for similar reasons I've stated before. Victor should've defeated Michael through experience alone. Power =/= skill or experience, but Underworld and D3 are equating it. Critics have stated that too.

I have no idea how an equal power + an equal power can produce something that's more powerful than it's origins.
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05/23/2014 08:03 PMPosted by Stingray
05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
Look at the Khazra. They were beasts. They gained power by a demon sharing it's blood with them. So they are beasts with demon blood coursing through their veins. Why can't they rival us? Simple, no angel blood. Yet they can rival demons because of they have part of it. It's kind of like the underworld movie logic.


This also makes zero sense. The renegade angels and demons used the Worldstone to create Sanctuary and everything living on it. The Worldstone was of angelic origin. So, everything there was of angelic and demonic progeny, hence it became "balanced". Angels kind of have blood, but they also have inner light and the things that they create, particularly weapons, are extensions of themselves. The beasts should technically be Nephalem/have Nephalem powers.

05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
Yet they can rival demons because of they have part of it. It's kind of like the underworld movie logic.

The guy becomes part werewolf part vampires and it makes him stronger than both.


Yes, and the Underworld movie logic was picked apart for similar reasons I've stated before. Victor should've defeated Michael through experience alone. Power =/= skill or experience, but Underworld and D3 are equating it. Critics have stated that too.

I have no idea how an equal power + an equal power can produce something that's more powerful than it's origins.


It doesn't work like that as mentioned before. The world stone created sanctuary but that didn't make everything in it "Angelic/Demon." No, the reason the Nephalem are both 'Angelic and Demon' is because they were created through the unity of angels/demons. The "Beasts and world" were created through the world stone which supposedly is a piece of Anu. Just because the angels had it didn't mean that it was angelic. The world stone had the power over creation, it doesn't mean that anything it creates is automatically both angel/demon. We don't fully know how the world stone works.

As for the criticism.. criticise it as much as you want. Canon is Canon. It's Canon that we are as powerful as we are because we're the offspring of angels/demons and it's explained in the lore that's what makes us so powerful. In Diablo 3 Power trumps Skill. Even if an entity is more skilled than us if we have enough raw power that skill doesn't matter. Example, if we were to fight a character from DBZ, regardless of your skill, it doesn't really matter but again.. it doesn't matter. Whether you think it makes sense or not doesn't change the fact that these things must be accepted as true in this universe.
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05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
It doesn't matter that our characters can't remove certain things. This isn't a "Raw power" kind of deal. More of a "purification." In terms of raw power, we rivaled uldyssian in Act 4. This was stated by Itharael who knows very well who Uldyssian is.
I think one way to look at this is to think of it as a lock and key situation. Unless someone has really messed up the architecture, it's a lot easier to open a door with a key rather than brute force.

Eirena's counterspell, Auriel's blessing, and the breaking of the demon gate are making use of spells or energies that, for whatever reasons, the nephalem hasn't learned or doesn't have the ability to use on their own*, and which happen to be the 'key' to the particular obstacle in question. While the nephalem has more power overall, he or she lacks the key and is forced to resort to attempting to brute-force the door, requiring much more power to succeed.

*Strictly speaking, some classes should theoretically have the ability to bypass these obstacles - a wizard probably has enough knowledge of illusions to deal with them (or just teleport past obstacles), while a monk or crusader could possibly achieve a close enough equivalent of angelic power to Auriel's blessing or Tyrael's sword to destroy the demonic obstacles without assistance. For story flow purposes, though, it's probably more complicated than its worth to have class alter events so significantly.
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05/23/2014 10:45 PMPosted by Draxynnic
05/22/2014 09:22 PMPosted by Reslin
It doesn't matter that our characters can't remove certain things. This isn't a "Raw power" kind of deal. More of a "purification." In terms of raw power, we rivaled uldyssian in Act 4. This was stated by Itharael who knows very well who Uldyssian is.
I think one way to look at this is to think of it as a lock and key situation. Unless someone has really messed up the architecture, it's a lot easier to open a door with a key rather than brute force.

Eirena's counterspell, Auriel's blessing, and the breaking of the demon gate are making use of spells or energies that, for whatever reasons, the nephalem hasn't learned or doesn't have the ability to use on their own*, and which happen to be the 'key' to the particular obstacle in question. While the nephalem has more power overall, he or she lacks the key and is forced to resort to attempting to brute-force the door, requiring much more power to succeed.

*Strictly speaking, some classes should theoretically have the ability to bypass these obstacles - a wizard probably has enough knowledge of illusions to deal with them (or just teleport past obstacles), while a monk or crusader could possibly achieve a close enough equivalent of angelic power to Auriel's blessing or Tyrael's sword to destroy the demonic obstacles without assistance. For story flow purposes, though, it's probably more complicated than its worth to have class alter events so significantly.


I agree with these points. Well spoken. :)
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05/23/2014 10:29 PMPosted by Reslin
It doesn't work like that as mentioned before. The world stone created sanctuary but that didn't make everything in it "Angelic/Demon." No, the reason the Nephalem are both 'Angelic and Demon' is because they were created through the unity of angels/demons. The "Beasts and world" were created through the world stone which supposedly is a piece of Anu. Just because the angels had it didn't mean that it was angelic.


The lore states that the Worldstone was Anu's eye after he purged himself. The Crystal Arch, which is Anu's spine, is also pure and holy. Thus, the Worldstone was pure and holy. The lore reaffirms this by stating Baal corrupted the Worldstone.

05/23/2014 10:29 PMPosted by Reslin
The world stone had the power over creation, it doesn't mean that anything it creates is automatically both angel/demon.


Everything on Sanctuary was created through angelic and demonic energies. So, there's no particular reason that everything on it, since it's all "balanced", shouldn't be as powerful as the Nephalem.

05/23/2014 10:29 PMPosted by Reslin
We don't fully know how the world stone works.


I deduced much from the lore. The writers should've established clear rules, particularly about the Worldstone and the Nephalem.

Everything within the story declared official by the creators is canon, including any flaws and plotholes. This is why professional writers advise to create a solid world and have as few plotholes, inconsistencies, and contradictions as possible. For example, Stephanie Meyer tried to tell a story of Bella and Edward were in love, but she inadvertently showed that the relationship was abusive. Those characters thought it was romance, but to the audience it was the opposite. That abusive relationship is canon. If gamers want the story to get better, than we should point out its flaws.

05/23/2014 10:45 PMPosted by Draxynnic
Eirena's counterspell, Auriel's blessing, and the breaking of the demon gate are making use of spells or energies that, for whatever reasons, the nephalem hasn't learned or doesn't have the ability to use on their own*, and which happen to be the 'key' to the particular obstacle in question. While the nephalem has more power overall, he or she lacks the key and is forced to resort to attempting to brute-force the door, requiring much more power to succeed.

*Strictly speaking, some classes should theoretically have the ability to bypass these obstacles - a wizard probably has enough knowledge of illusions to deal with them (or just teleport past obstacles), while a monk or crusader could possibly achieve a close enough equivalent of angelic power to Auriel's blessing or Tyrael's sword to destroy the demonic obstacles without assistance. For story flow purposes, though, it's probably more complicated than its worth to have class alter events so significantly.


If we're going to accept the premise that in D3 power > skill/knowledge/experience, then the Nephalem should've been able to get past the illusions and corruptions without aid. Since finding Belial, Azmodan, and Diablo were so dire, the Nephalem wouldn't have messed around and bashed through the barriers ASAP. If 6 (possibly 7, depending if we get another class in the next xpac) Nephalem defeated Diablo so "easily" shortly after the corruption barriers, the barriers should've been nothing. The developers only put the barriers there to make the acts longer. As I've said before, when you write an OP character you must bend or break the rules/logic if you want conflict.
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05/24/2014 11:09 PMPosted by Stingray
05/23/2014 10:29 PMPosted by Reslin
It doesn't work like that as mentioned before. The world stone created sanctuary but that didn't make everything in it "Angelic/Demon." No, the reason the Nephalem are both 'Angelic and Demon' is because they were created through the unity of angels/demons. The "Beasts and world" were created through the world stone which supposedly is a piece of Anu. Just because the angels had it didn't mean that it was angelic.


The lore states that the Worldstone was Anu's eye after he purged himself. The Crystal Arch, which is Anu's spine, is also pure and holy. Thus, the Worldstone was pure and holy. The lore reaffirms this by stating Baal corrupted the Worldstone.

05/23/2014 10:29 PMPosted by Reslin
The world stone had the power over creation, it doesn't mean that anything it creates is automatically both angel/demon.


Everything on Sanctuary was created through angelic and demonic energies. So, there's no particular reason that everything on it, since it's all "balanced", shouldn't be as powerful as the Nephalem.

05/23/2014 10:29 PMPosted by Reslin
We don't fully know how the world stone works.


I deduced much from the lore. The writers should've established clear rules, particularly about the Worldstone and the Nephalem.

Everything within the story declared official by the creators is canon, including any flaws and plotholes. This is why professional writers advise to create a solid world and have as few plotholes, inconsistencies, and contradictions as possible. For example, Stephanie Meyer tried to tell a story of Bella and Edward were in love, but she inadvertently showed that the relationship was abusive. Those characters thought it was romance, but to the audience it was the opposite. That abusive relationship is canon. If gamers want the story to get better, than we should point out its flaws.

05/23/2014 10:45 PMPosted by Draxynnic
Eirena's counterspell, Auriel's blessing, and the breaking of the demon gate are making use of spells or energies that, for whatever reasons, the nephalem hasn't learned or doesn't have the ability to use on their own*, and which happen to be the 'key' to the particular obstacle in question. While the nephalem has more power overall, he or she lacks the key and is forced to resort to attempting to brute-force the door, requiring much more power to succeed.

*Strictly speaking, some classes should theoretically have the ability to bypass these obstacles - a wizard probably has enough knowledge of illusions to deal with them (or just teleport past obstacles), while a monk or crusader could possibly achieve a close enough equivalent of angelic power to Auriel's blessing or Tyrael's sword to destroy the demonic obstacles without assistance. For story flow purposes, though, it's probably more complicated than its worth to have class alter events so significantly.


If we're going to accept the premise that in D3 power > skill/knowledge/experience, then the Nephalem should've been able to get past the illusions and corruptions without aid. Since finding Belial, Azmodan, and Diablo were so dire, the Nephalem wouldn't have messed around and bashed through the barriers ASAP. If 6 (possibly 7, depending if we get another class in the next xpac) Nephalem defeated Diablo so "easily" shortly after the corruption barriers, the barriers should've been nothing. The developers only put the barriers there to make the acts longer. As I've said before, when you write an OP character you must bend or break the rules/logic if you want conflict.


Regardless it doesn't matter. It's canon. Should the writers have made it possible to destroy the corruption right off the bat? Sure, but they didn't and it's still canon that we are this powerful. Itharael even mentions it.
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05/24/2014 11:09 PMPosted by Stingray
If we're going to accept the premise that in D3 power > skill/knowledge/experience, then the Nephalem should've been able to get past the illusions and corruptions without aid. Since finding Belial, Azmodan, and Diablo were so dire, the Nephalem wouldn't have messed around and bashed through the barriers ASAP. If 6 (possibly 7, depending if we get another class in the next xpac) Nephalem defeated Diablo so "easily" shortly after the corruption barriers, the barriers should've been nothing. The developers only put the barriers there to make the acts longer. As I've said before, when you write an OP character you must bend or break the rules/logic if you want conflict.
Different people have different skills and knowledge. The science nerd who can understand and build things that most people can't comprehend but who can't talk to a girl to save their life is a cliche that, while usually grossly exaggerated in the media, sadly does have good roots in reality. In game, even the most powerful and skilled Wizard cannot raise a pack of zombie dogs like a Witch Doctor.

Building skills, knowledge, and experience can help you build power (or to better use the power you already have, which for most intents and purposes are the same thing) but no amount of experience in one field will help you if a task requires skills from a completely different field. Going back to the door analogy, the strongest man in the world is still going to have a harder time opening a well-made locked door than someone who has the key (or who can at least pick the lock).

As I acknowledged, there are some spots where specific classes probably should have been able to get past an obstacle on their own, but that's probably been deliberately overlooked so as to avoid making the game very different just because you have the right class along. On the whole, though - our characters are very good at fighting, but are not the experts in other areas. We're the proverbial hammer to whom every problem looks like a nail - when the problem is not, in fact, a nail (or, rather, an enemy to be fought through weaponplay and destructive magic), we generally have to look for others to help.
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