Diablo® III

Why stupify the game more by removing dodge?

Why stupify the game more by removing dodge?

I get it, the current design pattern from the company is to make everything simpler, less complex, have less depth, and more appealing to casuals, but Diablo was never meant as a casual game. It's popularity comes from being a harder/complex game traditionally. Destroy that and you destroy the heart of the game.

Change after change like this is bringing down Diablo's luster, which is sad because there are at the same time many great changes going on - new "levels," new legendaries, etc.

I quit wow because all the character depth was removed over time, which I proved mathematically to the devs and even argued with some about it - and the math was ignored. It was a tough decision to quit, because it WAS a great game and I loved being a major theorycrafter and top warrior.

Please don't do the same to this one.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 7/6/2014 10:43 PM PDT
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Dodge was not a complex mechanic, it was just evasion. With your WoW experience you should know that Evasion < EHP (that would be armor and All resist). Not only that but the evasion did not even function on the majority of abilities.To center two whole classes survivability on it was terrible. Could they have gone another route and introduced a third form or EHP? Sure. But this change is at least a step in the right direction.
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Don't worry bud, more and more stuff will be taken out in the future.

Dex > Armor was a lazy fix.... but still a fix, and I will take it over it being skipped entirely.
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I have yet to care about anything by a "toughness" stat, and with only that and minimal effort, I have been able to run T4. Tell me what about this game is difficult to comprehend anyhow. Tell me why it should be difficult to understand.
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This
Dodge was not a complex mechanic, it was just evasion.

Is not even a valid logical argument. It's the equivalent of "George is not a complex mechanic, it was just George."

With your WoW experience you should know that Evasion < EHP (that would be armor and All resist)

And if you had any wow experience as a tank, you'd know that that is flat out wrong. It entirely depends on the situation - the boss, your class, your gear, and your job. You're dismissing dodge for no valid reason right now in order to get some mitigation so you can face tank on a class not meant to face tank, ie: derping your class.

It's a nerf to the two classes, and a nerf to their skill ceiling and depth as well.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 6/29/2014 7:04 PM PDT
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It is just a way to make Monk even weaker than before.

Making the class a rouge like paper character without any meaningful endgame damage output , being forced to massive amounts of CDR defensive skills just to stay alive in melee.
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There was no point in your WoW tanking career where avoidance is in general better than EHP. There is no such thing as an RNG tank.

It's OK that most gamers these days copy. You copy builds and gearing strategies, specs, and styles of play. OP claims to have tanked in WoW but is ignorant of EHP theory and the underlying mechanics.

This fix isn't lazy your understanding of this game is. That goes for all of the idiots that post suggestions too (most of which aren't even about survivability but instead would be OP like having dodge give crit).

Even if all the work were done to make dodge be mitigation and apply to all damage sources it still wouldn't be a real stat. It would need to be a required survivability stat for the other classes too (like everyone cares about armor and all res now), it would need to be a real primary stat on gear that randomly rolls and can be enchanted to, it would need to be a defensive paragon option like armor and all res are, it would likely need some other method of acquisition like all res has diamonds and armor come innately on visible slots.

After all THAT which touches practically every system in the game and invalidates everyone's gear there would probably be a bunch of things broken and requiring further work like 4-2 itemization and even the overall game difficulty. Would the dex classes be unique if dodge were finally a real stat? No.. because core survivability stats don't alter gameplay now and they won't in the future.
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Nobody really chose dodge/evasion especially since it doesn't typically roll on gear separately from it's primary stat like armor/resists do... it was just something you got extra of if you happened to play a monk/DH so if you're implying that it was part of a complex/in-depth system I'm not sure if I agree with you.
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06/29/2014 08:09 PMPosted by Jeremiah
Nobody really chose dodge/evasion especially since it doesn't typically roll on gear separately from it's primary stat like armor/resists do... it was just something you got extra of if you happened to play a monk/DH so if you're implying that it was part of a complex/in-depth system I'm not sure if I agree with you.


Holy crap you have a point.... Why was it that Armor could roll, BUT dodge % chance on Dodge ( #) could not be put on gear ? ... WTF?

Thats interesting...Ele resistance and Armor roll... yet they could not put dodge on gear ? WHY ?
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06/29/2014 07:45 PMPosted by Dusk
There was no point in your WoW tanking career where avoidance is in general better than EHP. There is no such thing as an RNG tank.
I'm going to disregard your absolute ignorance of numbers here and just leave you be. I feel sorry if anyone has taken advice from you. You never tanked anubarak heroic or any fight that required some amount of thinking or math it seems.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 6/29/2014 9:53 PM PDT
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Dodge > EHP (Armor) when it comes to higher tier greater rifts. Which is what really counts...let's be real; better exp and better loot drops.

I will take a 42.5% chance to dodge a Tier 43 jailer's attack and (a chance to) survive multiple times over getting killed in one shot by a jailer at Tier 30 with 20k armor from the extremely lazy design of dex to armor.

At least with dodge I have a chance to live through the attack. With this new update to dexterity it has effectively become trash. You have no chance of surviving it because you HAVE to take the damage now.

Complete failure when it comes to game mechanics. No thought went into it. None.
Edited by johno86#1813 on 6/29/2014 8:45 PM PDT
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06/29/2014 08:37 PMPosted by Throe
Nobody really chose dodge/evasion
False. You chose it at champion select. It's part of the champion.


Hence the qualifier *really*, and in the rest of the quote that you cut off I even mentioned the fact that the extra dodge was attached to monks and demon hunters. I'm going to go ahead and just assume you're a troll now.
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Way to blow things waaay out of proportion, OP.

First of all, they didn't remove dodge. They just changed it so that Dexterity no longer gives dodge chance, and gives armor points instead.

This allows Monk and DH to have a reliable form of defense for higher torment rather than rolling a dice every time you are hit to survive. But you probably wouldn't know, considering you don't have a single dex character. (aside from level 4 monk and level 1 DH)

It's a lazy and uninspired change, but it works.
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They're removing dodge?

That's odd. I thought they were just removing it as a sub-par primary mitigation factor for two classes and making it more of a bonus mitigation mechanic, like block.

Dodge was TERRIBLE as primary mitigation. It was like removing the armor from strength, adding it towards block and telling strength characters that block is their primary means of mitigation.
Edited by Yura#2182 on 6/29/2014 9:09 PM PDT
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i haven't played PTR but i'm foreseeing my DH getting played around by knockbacks by morlu incinerators + annoying affixes. numerous times i dodge hard hitting mortars and RG skills.

at face value, dex = armor looks great. but dodge really gives something else and it could have been tweaked imo.
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06/29/2014 07:45 PMPosted by Dusk
There was no point in your WoW tanking career where avoidance is in general better than EHP. There is no such thing as an RNG tank.

It's OK that most gamers these days copy. You copy builds and gearing strategies, specs, and styles of play. OP claims to have tanked in WoW but is ignorant of EHP theory and the underlying mechanics.

This fix isn't lazy your understanding of this game is. That goes for all of the idiots that post suggestions too (most of which aren't even about survivability but instead would be OP like having dodge give crit).

Even if all the work were done to make dodge be mitigation and apply to all damage sources it still wouldn't be a real stat. It would need to be a required survivability stat for the other classes too (like everyone cares about armor and all res now), it would need to be a real primary stat on gear that randomly rolls and can be enchanted to, it would need to be a defensive paragon option like armor and all res are, it would likely need some other method of acquisition like all res has diamonds and armor come innately on visible slots.

After all THAT which touches practically every system in the game and invalidates everyone's gear there would probably be a bunch of things broken and requiring further work like 4-2 itemization and even the overall game difficulty. Would the dex classes be unique if dodge were finally a real stat? No.. because core survivability stats don't alter gameplay now and they won't in the future.


Actually despite the fact that tanking with dodge was rare, it did exist.
and it goes further than that. there was a bit of a melting pot of different classes and skills all jumbled together to add variety to tanking from time to time.

In fact the notion that all of these occurrences were rare only enhances their value;

The fact that you think it is OK for everyone to just hop on the internet and copy builds, dodge tanking basically did not exist, and that people who post alternative suggestions are "idiots" just makes you seem like one of those people who are part of the problem with this game.

The problem is and has been for countless years across so many forms of art and media, that you must simplify and sterilize so that more idiots and losers and their idiot children will buy your product.

in that respect Diablo 3 is a runaway success.

nothing is allowed to offend provoke or challenge and then all is well.

remove numbers and complexity to increase appeal.

increase colors and explosions

the same thing happened with Final fantasy.

you don't explore anymore. you just walk along the path with 1 weapon and 1 armor and watch the explosions happen.

its transformers and justin beiber served on a plate..

the reason people hate this game and just get fed up and leave is simple:

doing the same thing over and over with a character thats basically the same as everyone else looking for the same handful of items that will probably never drop is boring

and if the team cannot figure out that releasing a few new pieces of boring gear and removing more stats and bumping up the drop rate of their sad stupid item pool is not the correct answer than I guess virtually all hope is lost.......

and this is not an isolated incident. its everywhere. the amount of interesting things in this series that they have removed is staggering....
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Im noob at forums but to whomever stated that all resist and armour is better then dodge think of this, my monk has a 70.8% chance to dodge ALL INCOMING DAMAGE SOURCES so that means those arcane beams boss aeos everything where as armour and resist only reduce the dmg, so basically for dodge builds like mine im now losing the ability to play t4 or higher caue i got about 15m toughness from dodge, wouldnt it be better to completely avoid dmg as opposed to reducing it? yeah blizzard likes taking all the cool things out of the game and turning it into diablo 1 again why not just bloody remove all the skills and stats and have ONLY main stat vit and all resist who cares about the others right? oh and lets have only 2 mouse buttons to cast with that would simplify things. seriously this is why i am currently in school to become a developer, probably wont make it into blizzard for years and years but if i do i swear to the gaming community there wont be !@#$ ups like this if i get a position of control.
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my monk has a 70.8% chance to dodge ALL INCOMING DAMAGE SOURCES so that means those arcane beams boss aeos everything where as armour and resist only reduce the dmg,


I'm assuming you're aware that Dodge does not work on most Elite Affixes.
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06/29/2014 11:20 AMPosted by Throe
Why stupefy the game more by removing dodge?

While I get what you're saying, I'd like to take the time to let you know that stupefy means something else.
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