Diablo® III

Why stupify the game more by removing dodge?

Changing dodge to armor isn't perfect, but it's definitely an up. I'll take it.

Why stupefy the game more by removing dodge?

While I get what you're saying, I'd like to take the time to let you know that stupefy means something else.
The game is astonished over dodge being removed.
Edited by Shadow#1938 on 7/10/2014 9:01 PM PDT
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Dodge was not a complex mechanic, it was just evasion. With your WoW experience you should know that Evasion < EHP (that would be armor and All resist). Not only that but the evasion did not even function on the majority of abilities.To center two whole classes survivability on it was terrible. Could they have gone another route and introduced a third form or EHP? Sure. But this change is at least a step in the right direction.


Eh, my tank knowledge is rather rusty and I skipped the last expansion, but in my old days of raid tanking (was a MT) in WoW, you had to fill up your defense table with block, dodge, everything to add up to 102~103% or so (taking in account of raid enemy level difference) to push off non-mitigated damage completely off the table, achieving 100% to never get hit by a non-mitigated blow.
Meaning, they were never a "one is better than other", you had to have both mitigation and evasion until you hit that sweet 102.6 or whatever it was.

So it was not as simple as "x is better than y".

I'm not taking Druid/Death Knight into account as I was never one.
Sorry for the off-topic.
Edited by Aohige#1412 on 7/10/2014 9:45 PM PDT
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I think if 2.1 drops without fixing 2 handers, leaves the planned dodge changes, and some more items unrelated to this topic, I'll be done. It's unfortunate with all the cool new features like legendary gems, grifts, and new legendary items/affixes, but I can't stand Blizzard's design philosophy BS any more. It's infected and ruined every game they have now, tarnishing the great legacy they've had in the past.

The mere suggestion of removing dodge is indication there are major issues. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it's just a PTR and they want to experiment. From my WoW experience and here though, it generally means it's mostly set in stone already. Regardless, I'll wait until it hits live for abandonment.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 7/12/2014 5:47 AM PDT
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Dodge bring nothing but inferior mitigation.
No flavor, no theorycrafting.
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07/12/2014 06:04 AMPosted by Bombus
Dodge bring nothing but inferior mitigation.
No flavor, no theorycrafting.
Dodge is not mitigation...

Dodge offers more numbercrunching than passive mitigation. In fact, I suspect the only reason they want to remove it is because it adds a load of work for the servers they want to eliminate to inflate performance numbers.

Dodge is a class differentiator. It is neither inferior nor better than mitigation. It does, however force different playstyles, the specific type targeted at the classes that possess it. Removing it encourages undesired playstyles for those classes - lazy facetanking, which they are not meant for. No longer will they even bother manually dodging and get rewarded with survival versus death.

I will say if someone is for the removal of dodge on their class, they're playing the wrong class and don't understand the concept.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 7/12/2014 6:29 AM PDT
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Dodge is a mitigator.
It doesn't work for several reasons.
Any affix it is allowed to work against leave it grossly overpowered versus that affix.
If it worked against all affixes it would make dex classes invulnerable.

In the end, it's a lot easier to just make it armor.

There's no playstyle involved. You get hit hard and run around like a headless chicken until you die or get a healthglobe, that's the "dodgy" "feel".
That's partly because its random and partly because it doesn't work against real threats.
I see what you want it to be, but it is not and never been that.
The game plays a certain way and mitigation is a large part of it. Having a class with inferior mitigation doesn't work.
Bringing it up to par may prove difficult and completely unnecessary when the same result can be achived by giving it the same as the other mitigators.
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07/12/2014 06:28 AMPosted by Throe
I will say if someone is for the removal of dodge on their class, they're playing the wrong class and don't understand the concept.

Sorry, but its you who don't understand.
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07/12/2014 06:50 AMPosted by Bombus
Dodge is a mitigator.
Please look up the definitions of avoidance versus mitigation. Dodge is not a mitigator, you are flat out incorrect.
It doesn't work for several reasons.
It does work, very well. Just not the way that lets you facetank on a class not meant to. It's an excellent avoidance stat that works on damage types that make up a very large portion of overall damage.
In the end, it's a lot easier to just make it armor.
Thank you for agreeing with me on my main point. Changing dodge in this fashion makes the game have less depth and actually makes it more stupid.
There's no playstyle involved. You get hit hard and run around like a headless chicken until you die or get a healthglobe, that's the "dodgy" "feel".
You just contradicted yourself there. You disagreed, then agreed with me it's a playstyle.
That's partly because its random and partly because it doesn't work against real threats.
You're starting to understand it's nature- RNG. It does work, though, exactly as stated, which includes real threats. In fact, it works on the biggest hitters of them all, the large telegraphed swings, and most of your damage. It's superior to mitigation while it works and worse when it doesn't. It's called a trade off, and something to be calculated.
as the other mitigators.
It's not a mitigator.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 7/12/2014 7:15 AM PDT
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07/12/2014 07:12 AMPosted by Throe
Please look up the definitions of avoidance versus mitigation. Dodge is not a mitigator, you are flat out incorrect.

I see what you are saying.
But the sole purpose of mitigators is to alleviate damage taken, exactly the same as avoiding it.

07/12/2014 07:12 AMPosted by Throe
It's not a mitigator.

It is. =)
It's alleviating damage, it is preventing damage.
A mitigator doesn't necessarily have to strictly reduce damage taken to mitigate the effects of damage. You can also avoid the damage, or be invulnerable to it, both perfectly mitigating the damage. In those cases, all the damage was mitigated.

07/12/2014 07:12 AMPosted by Throe
It does work, very well. Just not the way that lets you facetank on a class not meant to. It's an excellent avoidance stat that works on damage types that make up a very large portion of overall damage.

I see.
Overall damage is somewhat correct, but melee/ranged damage is rarely a threat.
Affixes are.
I understand what you like it to be, but it's not that, it is only an inferior mitigation factor.

07/12/2014 07:12 AMPosted by Throe
In fact, it works on the biggest hitters of them all, the large telegraphed swings

Not against hammerheads or whatever those mobs are called in heaven.
What you get, when hit by a heavy attack, is oneshot without proper reduction.
It doesn't add anything to gameplay and dodgy feel.
That's just you making it up.

In this game, you need to have a very high allround mitigation. Otherwise you die. Regardless how swiftly you dart around.
That's how the game works, dodge doesn't fit into that picture very well.
And it's the same issue in PoE for example.
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07/12/2014 07:28 AMPosted by Bombus
07/12/2014 07:12 AMPosted by Throe
It's not a mitigator.

It is.
I can't communicate with you while you're ignoring facts and basic precepts/premises to engage in the topic.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 7/12/2014 7:39 AM PDT
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07/12/2014 07:34 AMPosted by Throe
07/12/2014 07:28 AMPosted by Bombus
...
It is.
I can't communicate with you while you're ignoring facts and basic precepts/premises to engage in the topic.

You are ignoring how the game works in core to have it be compatible with your view on how it should work.
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07/12/2014 07:43 AMPosted by Bombus
...I can't communicate with you while you're ignoring facts and basic precepts/premises to engage in the topic.

You are ignoring how the game works in core to have it be compatible with your view on how it should work.
It's not MY view on how it should work. It's a fact that it works that way right now, and this particular change does, in FACT make the game simpler, less engaging, and shallower depth-wise.
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I avoided the hit. The damage of it was not mitigated, it was negated.
Out of two attacks, one hit.
My avoidance mitigated or reduced half of the total damage potential.

That's why dodge is a mitigator.
It can never fully negate all damage, it's a percentage.
The enviroment always place you under a certain dps pressure.
As such, dodge mitigates dps.
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07/12/2014 07:46 AMPosted by Throe
make the game simpler, less engaging, and shallower depth-wise.

Has no effect on gameplay but making your mitigation more reliable.
That's how the game works. You need reliable mitigation or you die.
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07/12/2014 06:50 AMPosted by Bombus
There's no playstyle involved. You get hit hard and run around like a headless chicken until you die or get a healthglobe, that's the "dodgy" "feel".
That's partly because its random and partly because it doesn't work against real threats.
I see what you want it to be, but it is not and never been that.


DH/MNK are they classes for those who don't want to play brain-afk, because you have to prepare your char for cases like dodging doesn't activating, stuff which can't be dodged..... you have to stay focused and eventually need to evade manually.....

if you don't like it, then play barb, crusader, wizard or wd , you can play brainafk with those classes.....
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07/10/2014 10:41 AMPosted by foiblesqt
06/29/2014 11:20 AMPosted by Throe
I quit wow because all the character depth was removed over time, which I proved mathematically


lolwat

-WoD will decrease the quantity of player controlled stats by at least roughly 50%, more depending on how they implement gems.
-This is before accounting for stats being removed
-The physical skill cap is lowered for most/all classes in pvp. (too much detail for this thread)

Check the twitter history of Lore, Celestalon, and Holinka for more info. You can see a few months ago the conversations they had on these topics. If you're smart, you'll figure out my username :P
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07/12/2014 08:13 AMPosted by Alukat
07/12/2014 06:50 AMPosted by Bombus
There's no playstyle involved. You get hit hard and run around like a headless chicken until you die or get a healthglobe, that's the "dodgy" "feel".
That's partly because its random and partly because it doesn't work against real threats.
I see what you want it to be, but it is not and never been that.


DH/MNK are they classes for those who don't want to play brain-afk, because you have to prepare your char for cases like dodging doesn't activating, stuff which can't be dodged..... you have to stay focused and eventually need to evade manually.....

if you don't like it, then play barb, crusader, wizard or wd , you can play brainafk with those classes.....

I really see what you are saying.
But it needs to be done in a different way than through the mainstats.
Because all these stats really are is gearlocks, preventing you to accumulating gear simultaneously for all classes.
They only provide damage and reduction. They're not aimed to be class defining, the skills are.
Monk should be able to tank and dps, imo.. And uh, support... Well, it's not there, but it should be, from skills. The game should play very differently depending on what skills you pick. It's a big problem with the game itself that you get pidgeon holed into certain builds and you are always looking solely for damage increases.
There's no reason for multiplayer beyond efficency and fun ofcourse.
I think the highest difficulty should be exclusive for groups, well balanced groups.

I remember the best part of vanilla, for me, was using deadly reach with the monk when I couldn't get close anymore and crippling wave when surrounded.
It really worked and was fun gameplay.
Now it's a lot more facetanking, finesse has been lost in that regard :-/

The game need tactics, finesse and real teamwork!
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Dodge needed to be changed simply because it was a completely lackluster stat compared to armor and all resist, and dex classes were getting shafted in the defensive department as a consequence. The problem has been around since vanilla, but, with the changes made in RoS (mainly and the inclusion of cheesy unavoidable damage mechanics) they made this even more evident. If you played a DH right now instead of a barbarian, I'm pretty sure you'd understand this problem.

I know this wasn't a particularly clever or original solution, but it's arguably a practical bandaid for the moment. Who knows, perhaps eventually they'll come with something more interesting, but at least there will be some balance for now.

07/12/2014 08:13 AMPosted by Alukat
DH/MNK are they classes for those who don't want to play brain-afk, because you have to prepare your char for cases like dodging doesn't activating, stuff which can't be dodged..... you have to stay focused and eventually need to evade manually.....

if you don't like it, then play barb, crusader, wizard or wd , you can play brainafk with those classes.....

This would be valid, if there weren't unavoidable damage mechanics. However, when you have stupid garbage like Jailer doing a lot of unmitigaged unavoidable damage regardless of your position or efforts to dodge other attacks, dodge begins to fail. TBH, I think they should just get rid of those unavoidable damage gearchecking mechanics. I have no problem with dodging stuff manually, but under the current iteration of the game, this simply isn't a valid argument anymore.
Edited by Blashyrkh#1824 on 7/12/2014 8:47 AM PDT
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07/12/2014 08:34 AMPosted by Bombus
But it needs to be done in a different way than through the mainstats.


Barb > 30% natural mitigation + mitigation from primary stat (beginner's class)
Crusader > mitigation from primary stat (advanced player skill required)
wiz/wd > mitigation from primary stat (advanced player skill required)
monk > 30% natural mitigation + 0 mitigation from primary stat (more player skill required)
dh > neither natural nor primary stat mitigation (most player skill required)

by this design the player can choose which class difficulty he wants to play......that's why it is fine via mainstats....

the change from dodge to armor will just turn the monk into another barb (beginner's class) and dh into a class which requires low-mid/mid player skill instead of mid+/high....
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