Diablo® III

Why stupify the game more by removing dodge?

07/12/2014 08:46 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
If you played a DH right now instead of a barbarian, I'm pretty sure you'd understand this problem.


i've played DH from the beginning (D3 release) and i like it the way it has been for the last 2 years....

However, when you have stupid garbage like Jailer dping a lot of unmitigaged damage regardless of your position or efforts to dodge other attacks, dodge begins to fail.


this makes the game interesting......

07/12/2014 08:46 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
TBH, I think they should just get rid of those unavoidable damage gearchecking mechanics.


so more brainafking?
Edited by Alukat#2633 on 7/12/2014 8:51 AM PDT
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i've played DH and i like it the way it has been for the last 2 years....

lvl 60 DH? Sorry, but that's what your current profile suggests. Maybe you should post from your real account, if you have it. Would save me a lot of speculation about your experience.

07/12/2014 08:50 AMPosted by Alukat
this makes the game interesting......

What's interesting about getting unmitigated damage while everyone else gets passive mitigation from their mainstat? I get you like being the underdog, but that's not really cutting it as an argument to support having a lackluster mainstat.

07/12/2014 08:50 AMPosted by Alukat
so more brainafking?

No. More skill-based mechanics. Again, how's receiving unmitigated damage a test to skill?
Edited by Blashyrkh#1824 on 7/12/2014 8:54 AM PDT
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07/12/2014 08:47 AMPosted by Alukat
07/12/2014 08:34 AMPosted by Bombus
But it needs to be done in a different way than through the mainstats.


Barb > 30% natural mitigation + mitigation from primary stat (beginner's class)
Crusader > mitigation from primary stat (advanced player skill required)
wiz/wd > mitigation from primary stat (advanced player skill required)
monk > 30% natural mitigation + 0 mitigation from primary stat (more player skill required)
dh > neither natural nor primary stat mitigation (most player skill required)

by this design the player can choose which class difficulty he wants to play......that's why it is fine via mainstats....

the change from dodge to armor will just turn the monk into another barb (beginner's class) and dh into a class which requires low-mid/mid player skill instead of mid+/high....

You're talking about redesigning the game.
I'm fine with that, but I don't see it coming anytime soon.

For today, armor > dodge
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07/12/2014 08:53 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
lvl 60 DH? Sorry, but that's what your current profile suggests. Maybe you should post from your real account, if you have it.


i've missed 2.01-2.03.... played like 200 hours at 2.04..... then quit because the game has become to boring/stupid..... 2.1 will even make things worse......

07/12/2014 08:53 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
What's interesting about getting unmitigated damage while everyone else gets passive mitigation from their mainstat? I get you like being the underdog, but that's not really cutting it as an argument to support having a lackluster mainstat.


07/12/2014 08:53 AMPosted by Blashyrkh
Again, how's receiving unmitigated damage a test to skill?


you have to stay focused.... you need to learn the patterns of monsters, like akt 3 the um..... what are them called in english? the teleport ones in the core of arreat....., pre 1.03 it was necessary to know where they are going to teleport, how long it takes for them to attack after a teleport and so...... just to be able to evade manually.... that's the thing that it is interesting at having neither natural nor primarystat mitigation...... and this interesting part will be removed with 2.1......

unmitigated damage requires to learn the bestiary their specific attributes/skill/pattern.....
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07/12/2014 08:59 AMPosted by Bombus
07/12/2014 08:47 AMPosted by Alukat
...

Barb > 30% natural mitigation + mitigation from primary stat (beginner's class)
Crusader > mitigation from primary stat (advanced player skill required)
wiz/wd > mitigation from primary stat (advanced player skill required)
monk > 30% natural mitigation + 0 mitigation from primary stat (more player skill required)
dh > neither natural nor primary stat mitigation (most player skill required)

by this design the player can choose which class difficulty he wants to play......that's why it is fine via mainstats....

the change from dodge to armor will just turn the monk into another barb (beginner's class) and dh into a class which requires low-mid/mid player skill instead of mid+/high....

You're talking about redesigning the game.
I'm fine with that, but I don't see it coming anytime soon.

For today, armor > dodge


huh? it has been the way i've postet since the release of d3.... but they'll screw it at 2.1.......
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07/12/2014 09:02 AMPosted by Alukat
huh? it has been the way i've postet since the release of d3.... but they'll screw it at 2.1

No. Monk have had OwE as a requirement since vanilla due to poor mitigation.
DH always was a glass cannon, but it was "manageable" as long as you could handle being oneshot at times.

Crusader got 30% additional mitigation btw.
Just so you know.
That's one of the reasons I was led to believe you were talking about redesign.
Edited by Bombus#2506 on 7/12/2014 9:14 AM PDT
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Barb > 30% natural mitigation + mitigation from primary stat (beginner's class)
Crusader > 30% natural mitigation + mitigation from primary stat (Absolute Beginner's class)

Fixed. Crusader was meant to have 0-15% but now has 30% thanks to unbased whining. They also have mandatory extra armor and block, which is optional for everyone else, so they are the most tanky class at baseline. Crusader is equal in skill to barbarian now. Crusaders are the most tanky class, but are still designed as medium range and should avoid a few larger mechanics.

But your descriptions are pretty accurate otherwise.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 7/12/2014 10:42 AM PDT
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07/12/2014 09:02 AMPosted by Alukat
huh? it has been the way i've postet since the release of d3.... but they'll screw it at 2.1

DH always was a glass cannon, but it was "manageable" as long as you could handle being oneshot at times.
You realize DH was one of if not the first to solo kill mal T6, right? It was all skill. Stuff is avoidable.
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I love how the people complaining are the ones that either don't play the classes, or don't have the gear for higher torments. Dodge doesn't make the class require more skill, it just means you're going to die when you don't dodge. No matter what class you play, you've always had to dodge heavy hitting monsters if it meant dying. The problem with dodge, is that you can't dodge affixes, which generally hit for the most damage, and regardless of how well you play, you're going to die when dodge fails.

The way the game is designed, dodge isn't a 'skill' stat. It's a stat that can only provide frustration whenever it doesn't work.

It's real fun running into a pack you've killed dozens of times, only to have your dodge checks fail and you're either dead, or running away because of bad RNG. There's literally no skill involved in that. It either works, or it doesn't.

Crusader base mitigation was buffed because *gasp* it was needed. It had nothing to do with whining. It had everything to do with bringing it in line with monk/barb for baseline reduction.

But you wouldn't know, seeing as you're still only playing vanilla D3. Unless you're not posting on your real account for whatever reason.
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07/12/2014 10:23 AMPosted by Throe
You realize DH was one of if not the first to solo kill mal T6, right? It was all skill. Stuff is avoidable.

I like how you bring in a fight that is mostly avoidable stuff. How about unavoidable damage like thunderstorm, frozen pulse, fire/poison puddles. All those things that you can't avoid the first tick of.

You do realize that without dodge, you can still avoid all those things on Mal right? Just like everything else in the game that has a telegraph.
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07/12/2014 10:28 AMPosted by DrownedElf
Crusader base mitigation was buffed because *gasp* it was needed. It had nothing to do with whining. It had everything to do with bringing it in line with monk/barb for baseline reduction.
Mathematically false. 0-15% would make it equivalent to monk-barbarian based on all factors. 15% only lived for a few days after being buffed from 0% because people KEPT whining without testing 15%, even though it was more than enough. A very short while after 15%, 30% was pushed live.

30% was 100% due to whining and not factual numbers or data. 15% was the right call.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 7/12/2014 10:33 AM PDT
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You'd know because of all that time spent playing a high torment crusader right? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Nor do you have a high level dex class.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Do explain how 0-15% based on 'all factors' would've been equivalent.
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07/12/2014 10:31 AMPosted by DrownedElf
07/12/2014 10:23 AMPosted by Throe
You realize DH was one of if not the first to solo kill mal T6, right? It was all skill. Stuff is avoidable.

I like how you bring in a fight that is mostly avoidable stuff. How about unavoidable damage like thunderstorm, frozen pulse, fire/poison puddles. All those things that you can't avoid the first tick of.

You do realize that without dodge, you can still avoid all those things on Mal right? Just like everything else in the game that has a telegraph.

If you're a DH or mage, EVERYTHING is avoidable while still doing damage. If you're a monk or barb, half or less of things are avoidable while still doing damage. That's the reason for the disparity. Understand the differences between bruiser, rogue, medium range, and long range.
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This fix isn't lazy your understanding of this game is. That goes for all of the idiots that post suggestions too (most of which aren't even about survivability but instead would be OP like having dodge give crit).

.


this is completely dumb reasoning

blizz gave up on dex/dodge and instead of putting effort, your reasoning is that it is dumb to try hard things

anytime someone says 'so and so don't know anything about such and such' and then does nothing to explain what they think they know so much about is just being a total toolface
Edited by KwShinigami#1337 on 7/12/2014 10:40 AM PDT
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07/12/2014 10:36 AMPosted by Throe
If you're a DH or mage, EVERYTHING is avoidable while still doing damage. If you're a monk or barb, half or less of things are avoidable while still doing damage. That's the reason for the disparity. Understand the differences between bruiser, rogue, medium range, and long range.

Everything isn't avoidable. There are things in the game that are completely unavoidable for the first tick.That still doesn't explain why you feel crusaders didn't need the same base damage reduction as monk/barb. I like how you skirt the fact that monk can't do damage like barb/crusader, because of the lack of mitigation that those two have. What's even more frustrating, is that you need spirit in order to do damage, which requires you to have to be attacking. Monks can't just run around like a DH at distance.

So sure, DH is probably fine without dex-armor, but monk will be far better off for it.
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07/12/2014 10:36 AMPosted by DrownedElf
You'd know because of all that time spent playing a high torment crusader right? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Nor do you have a high level dex class.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Do explain how 0-15% based on 'all factors' would've been equivalent.

I leveled my crusader exclusively in torment 6 to its current level. It's not 70 yet, but the difficulty is still there. Yes, 70 t6 is slightly different, but not by much once you hit 60.

On top of that, you don't actually have to play a class to do math on the class.
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07/12/2014 10:36 AMPosted by DrownedElf
You'd know because of all that time spent playing a high torment crusader right? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Nor do you have a high level dex class.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Do explain how 0-15% based on 'all factors' would've been equivalent.


you try to sound so smart but why not go the full progression of this idea and suggest that armor and res should merge and main stat should equal the same combination of armor and res for all classes.. heck even bring dodge back and make a dodge/res/armor mix of values for anyones main stat

that is where getting rid of dodge and not thinking of a new direction for dodge leads this game towards
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07/12/2014 10:43 AMPosted by DrownedElf
07/12/2014 10:36 AMPosted by Throe
If you're a DH or mage, EVERYTHING is avoidable while still doing damage. If you're a monk or barb, half or less of things are avoidable while still doing damage. That's the reason for the disparity. Understand the differences between bruiser, rogue, medium range, and long range.

Everything isn't avoidable. There are things in the game that are completely unavoidable for the first tick.That still doesn't explain why you feel crusaders didn't need the same base damage reduction as monk/barb. I like how you skirt the fact that monk can't do damage like barb/crusader, because of the lack of mitigation that those two have. What's even more frustrating, is that you need spirit in order to do damage, which requires you to have to be attacking. Monks can't just run around like a DH at distance.

So sure, DH is probably fine without dex-armor, but monk will be far better off for it.

I'm reading this, and I don't think you realize you're admitting you don't know the difference between bruiser, rogue, mid-range, and long distance.
Edited by Throe#1878 on 7/12/2014 10:47 AM PDT
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07/12/2014 09:00 AMPosted by Alukat
you have to stay focused.... you need to learn the patterns of monsters, like akt 3 the um..... what are them called in english? the teleport ones in the core of arreat....., pre 1.03 it was necessary to know where they are going to teleport, how long it takes for them to attack after a teleport and so...... just to be able to evade manually.... that's the thing that it is interesting at having neither natural nor primarystat mitigation...... and this interesting part will be removed with 2.1......

unmitigated damage requires to learn the bestiary their specific attributes/skill/pattern.....


That's precisely my point. "Staying focused" doesn't really help you against unmitigated, unavoidable damage. How do you learn the pattern of a Jailer monster? He will jail you regardless of your position, and deal a big chunk of damage (T4+) just because. It's everything but a test of skill.

It's weird you use phasebeasts as an example here, because their teleporting isn't containable through skill either. They'll just teleport to you regardless of your position and smack you in the face. Another cheesy gear check. However, at least you can dodge their hits, but you can't dodge jailer's damage. If the affix worked in a similar way to frozen traps, it would actually be a skill-based mechanic. You know, placing them with a small build up timer to allow the player to offset his position in order to dodge them. Frozen is in fact one of the better designed affixes, along with the new poison bombs or arcane beams. If you get hit by them, you'll be in trouble, specially frozen if it's stacked, but you can always avoid them with some spatial awareness, so they are fair affixes. Cheesy Jailer just pops on you and that's it. No skill will prevent that.

07/12/2014 09:00 AMPosted by Alukat
i've missed 2.01-2.03.... played like 200 hours at 2.04..... then quit because the game has become to boring/stupid..... 2.1 will even make things worse......

How did you manage to play 200 hours in RoS and stay at lvl 60? Sorry, but I seem to be missing something here, and your profile certainly doesn't reflect the kind of experience you claim to have here.
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07/12/2014 10:28 AMPosted by DrownedElf
The way the game is designed, dodge isn't a 'skill' stat. It's a stat that can only provide frustration whenever it doesn't work.


only if absolutely rely on it (brainafking)

07/12/2014 10:28 AMPosted by DrownedElf
It's real fun running into a pack you've killed dozens of times, only to have your dodge checks fail and you're either dead, or running away because of bad RNG. There's literally no skill involved in that. It either works, or it doesn't.


so you simply died cause of brainafking and then the class has to be changed into a brainafking class?

07/12/2014 10:31 AMPosted by DrownedElf
How about unavoidable damage like thunderstorm, frozen pulse, fire/poison puddles. All those things that you can't avoid the first tick of.


keep the eyes open.....

07/12/2014 10:36 AMPosted by DrownedElf
You'd know because of all that time spent playing a high torment crusader right? Oh that's right, you don't have one. Nor do you have a high level dex class.

You don't know what you're talking about.


funny that you're coming with this.... you got like 50 hours playtime with your DH? i have 1.000 hours....
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