Diablo® III

D̶P̶S Damage Meter

07/07/2014 05:38 PMPosted by Marx
You guys with your walls of text are funny. It's this simple -

DPS meters would be useful to many...

But the BNET community has proven over the years that elitists will use DPS meters to exclude the 'average' player, so they're not going to be implemented into D3.

You can argue all day long about how much useful info they provide; like anything, they're harmful when misused, and Blizzard doesn't trust its community enough not to misuse DPS meters. Nor should they. Ya'll are a bunch of poop socking a'holes.


well that was a constructive argument you presented, not. stating something as fact doesn't make it any closer to a fact than arguing why something is a fact, sorry. insulting people or generalizing a group of people for having an opinion as a base for your argument also doesn't do justice to any point you might have actually had. hope that helped, next time when you join a discussion try not to ironically be such an a**hole yourself.
Edited by motion#1866 on 7/7/2014 5:45 PM PDT
07/07/2014 05:17 PMPosted by Zepheron
The only problem that may affect players is if you are trying to run a higher T and you get booted because your DPS doesn't meet the, 'standard' for that T.


Exactly.

THAT SINGLE player SHOULD be the one affected. Not the other 3 party members.

Are you suggesting wanting to play with other players at or near to the same character level / skill / aptitude is a problem that needs addressing?
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07/06/2014 06:10 PMPosted by Dooces
Blues, if you want to have an actual dialectic with your playerbase, fox news talking points and excuses might not be the best approach. Decisions could not possibly be made based on the non sequitur reasoning you typically afford the forums. Respect shown to the playerbase is reflected with constructive feedback.


Are we on the same forums?

Welcome to the General Discussion forum! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss all aspects of Diablo III with your fellow players.


Chill, they are just fellow players with some insider information. It's sad to see most of the forumgoers on these forums don't generally respect eachother. Yep, totally the type of people you want to have actual dialect with, right?

But, several valid points for damage meters were raised in this topic. And, I would like to add that Theorycraft Thursday would be a little more interesting with data to support builds.
Edited by Gnosis#1870 on 7/7/2014 7:36 PM PDT
I agree with blizzard that a damage meter is not the only thing that matters in Diablo.

There are so many ways that different classes can contribute to a party, not just damage.

Take for example, a zDPS EP/pull monk.

He has ~0 sheet dps, but provides some of the best CCs/defensive capabilities (and of course, EP) such that other members in the party can spec or gear offensively (more burst damage, less defensive stats). Sure EP is where his damage comes from (which is a heck alot) but I don't think other classes could go more offensive without the defensive capabilities of the monk. Sub 4 min T6 rifts happen because of zDPS monks.

My guess is, blizzards way of addressing the damage meter issue is leaderboards in 2.1. Don't you think?
Edited by Spratsprut#1429 on 7/8/2014 2:56 AM PDT
EP does zero dps? news to me, I was under the impression it was the highest damage ability in the game
07/07/2014 11:50 PMPosted by motion
EP does zero dps? news to me, I was under the impression it was the highest damage ability in the game


EDIT: I meant sheet dps in my previous post.

EP != zero dps. You are right int that they're probably the highest damage ability in game. They're just called zDPS monks because of very low sheet dps. Why do I get the feeling you already know that?
Edited by Spratsprut#1429 on 7/8/2014 2:58 AM PDT
07/08/2014 02:55 AMPosted by Spratsprut
07/07/2014 11:50 PMPosted by motion
EP does zero dps? news to me, I was under the impression it was the highest damage ability in the game


EDIT: I meant sheet dps in my previous post.

EP != zero dps. You are right int that they're probably the highest damage ability in game. They're just called zDPS monks because of very low sheet dps. Why do I get the feeling you already know that?


because I do :P I was semi mocking you. But yeah your point about zDPS monks not appearing on damage meters is trumped by the fact that EP alone does huge damage so if anything zDPS monks would be topping the meters based on one ability alone. Regardless, while you're right that all classes contribute differently, a damage meter isn't necessarily to compare classes as it is to compare builds within a class. And while it's impossible to prevent people from comparing classes, I feel like all classes do enough damage that it wouldn't be as big of an issue as people make out.
A simpler solutin:

After killing a champion/unique change the massage:

XXX was killed. You did XX% damage.
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07/06/2014 06:10 PMPosted by Dooces
Damage done reflects toughness, healing, utility, awareness, reaction time, skills, type of mouse you use, and how much apoptosis the paint chips and glue have caused. Damage done is inherent with any DPS meter. You argue the PS detracts somehow from the benefits of knowing your D.

DPS is not the only number that matters when you play.

D is the only number that matters when I play.


When damage is actually a part of those calculations then it will reflect. It is not the most important stat and should not be the focus of the game. Which dps meters would do, and by looking at some of your characters I would highly doubt that D is the only number that matters to you when you play.

There are too many cons to having them so do not expect to see them implemented.

07/07/2014 01:55 PMPosted by Phatty
Very simply, dps information is one whole aspect of this game that is hidden to the player which is intrinsically part of the core dynamic. Holding this information back doesn't really make sense at all.


Since taking a break from your thread I did some thinking and there is one thing that I wanted to say in it. Since you showed a definition of skill I will show you another important definition. Along with stating other things that do not relate to skill but can impact a clearing time in a rift.

1. Mob density, unless Blizz made a secret change to the density on the PTR. There are no doubt still some floors that are basically void of mobs. Then there are other floors that have tons of mobs. If you have two players that have the same build and gear level. If player A clears the rift slower than player B does not mean that player B is better. It could be due to the fact that rng in that rift that was just done had a few bad floors as far as mobs goes. That is something that player skill cannot handle.

2. Knowledge of good clearing routes. If you have players that just do not understand how to clear a map the fastest as humanly possible then they will have different clear times even though they may have the same dps according to a meter.

3. Knowledge of the classes. Here this kind of knowledge will help you to be able to adapt to just about any team combo.

4. Know the builds that your team is using. A little bit of knowledge of the weaknesses of the builds that your team is using can go a long way to improving the overall efficiency of the team.

5. The ability and willingness to adapt to the team that you are on. That is not skill, because skill means how good you are at doing something. Some people just are not flexible enough to be able to adapt.

6. Good communication skills, here being able to talk to your fellow team mates is vital for efficient clearing times. With a little communication you can then know what is expected of you while you are on that team.

7. This is the point I wanted to add in the other thread, but because of my promise I decided not to add it. It is called Wisdom, which is applying the knowledge you have obtained.

1. the ability or result of an ability to think and act utilizing knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight
2. accumulated knowledge, erudition, or enlightenment
3. a wise saying or wise sayings or teachings
4. soundness of mind

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wisdom


The first definition shows that it means applied knowledge, so applying knowledge is not skill. Whereas skill is a developed ability or talent.

If dps is the only thing hidden then where are the formulas for toughness and healing. Where are the proc rates on skills and runes. Where is the information that would help us have a truly balanced character and a good well balanced group that have more than just a dps number. Even though toughness and healing is a step in the right direction there are still hidden numbers in those two stats that you do not get in the game.
07/08/2014 05:10 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
07/06/2014 06:10 PMPosted by Dooces
Damage done reflects toughness, healing, utility, awareness, reaction time, skills, type of mouse you use, and how much apoptosis the paint chips and glue have caused. Damage done is inherent with any DPS meter. You argue the PS detracts somehow from the benefits of knowing your D.

DPS is not the only number that matters when you play.

D is the only number that matters when I play.


When damage is actually a part of those calculations then it will reflect. It is not the most important stat and should not be the focus of the game. Which dps meters would do, and by looking at some of your characters I would highly doubt that D is the only number that matters to you when you play.

There are too many cons to having them so do not expect to see them implemented.

07/07/2014 01:55 PMPosted by Phatty
Very simply, dps information is one whole aspect of this game that is hidden to the player which is intrinsically part of the core dynamic. Holding this information back doesn't really make sense at all.


Since taking a break from your thread I did some thinking and there is one thing that I wanted to say in it. Since you showed a definition of skill I will show you another important definition. Along with stating other things that do not relate to skill but can impact a clearing time in a rift.

1. Mob density, unless Blizz made a secret change to the density on the PTR. There are no doubt still some floors that are basically void of mobs. Then there are other floors that have tons of mobs. If you have two players that have the same build and gear level. If player A clears the rift slower than player B does not mean that player B is better. It could be due to the fact that rng in that rift that was just done had a few bad floors as far as mobs goes. That is something that player skill cannot handle.

2. Knowledge of good clearing routes. If you have players that just do not understand how to clear a map the fastest as humanly possible then they will have different clear times even though they may have the same dps according to a meter.

3. Knowledge of the classes. Here this kind of knowledge will help you to be able to adapt to just about any team combo.

4. Know the builds that your team is using. A little bit of knowledge of the weaknesses of the builds that your team is using can go a long way to improving the overall efficiency of the team.

5. The ability and willingness to adapt to the team that you are on. That is not skill, because skill means how good you are at doing something. Some people just are not flexible enough to be able to adapt.

6. Good communication skills, here being able to talk to your fellow team mates is vital for efficient clearing times. With a little communication you can then know what is expected of you while you are on that team.

7. This is the point I wanted to add in the other thread, but because of my promise I decided not to add it. It is called Wisdom, which is applying the knowledge you have obtained.

1. the ability or result of an ability to think and act utilizing knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight
2. accumulated knowledge, erudition, or enlightenment
3. a wise saying or wise sayings or teachings
4. soundness of mind

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/wisdom


The first definition shows that it means applied knowledge, so applying knowledge is not skill. Whereas skill is a developed ability or talent.

If dps is the only thing hidden then where are the formulas for toughness and healing. Where are the proc rates on skills and runes. Where is the information that would help us have a truly balanced character and a good well balanced group that have more than just a dps number. Even though toughness and healing is a step in the right direction there are still hidden numbers in those two stats that you do not get in the game.


Shadow you are reducing our discussion to semantics. You said you were going to stop responding.

If not:
All those things you listed affect dps readout. Some more and some less. Mob density and playing your build correct (skill) is easily teased out of that information a lot of times. Please remember I am running a group of end game players. They all have 2-6 of your points. That is why I _KNOW_ for a _FACT_ that skill of playing your build makes a big !@# difference. Knowing how to play jade, rainment/jawbreaker, can SEEN in dps meters. People can be taught and gain skill and the result can be SEEN in a dps meter.

I already told you that the health bar that we have is the equivalent to a DPS meter in game. It gives real time feedback on damage taken / healing. This is your feedback meter for toughness and healing.

Read this if you wish to split the hairs with semantics and PLEASE promptly sit down.

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-knowledge-and-skill/


1.Knowledge refers to theoretical information acquired about any subject whereas skills refer to practical application of that knowledge
2.Knowledge can be learned whereas skills require practical exposure and can also be in-born
3.Ultimately, both knowledge and skill is required to master a field of study

Read more: Difference Between Knowledge and Skill | Difference Between | Knowledge vs Skill http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-knowledge-and-skill/#ixzz36sZUbf4v
Edited by Phatty#1821 on 7/8/2014 5:28 AM PDT
07/08/2014 02:55 AMPosted by Spratsprut
07/07/2014 11:50 PMPosted by motion
EP does zero dps? news to me, I was under the impression it was the highest damage ability in the game


EDIT: I meant sheet dps in my previous post.

EP != zero dps. You are right int that they're probably the highest damage ability in game. They're just called zDPS monks because of very low sheet dps. Why do I get the feeling you already know that?


The 3rd party damage meters were able to track damage a zds. They routinely did the highest amount of damage for most teams.

A trivial fact: the actual term zdps is actually derived from zds. Zds was the name of the monk build by vox back in pre. It was Z.ero D.ps S.support - the original build was being used for clearing crypts DID NOT have exploding palm. Due to the nature of this build, people and being called zero dps support, it gradually has become known also as zdps. Occasionally people think zds is a typo, but it is not.
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07/08/2014 05:25 AMPosted by Phatty
Shadow you are reducing our discussion to semantics. You said you were going to stop responding.

If not:
All those things you listed affect dps readout. Some more and some less. Mob density and playing your build correct (skill) is easily teased out of that information a lot of times. Please remember I am running a group of end game players. They all have 2-6 of your points. That is why I _KNOW_ for a _FACT_ that skill of playing your build makes a big !@# difference. Knowing how to play jade, rainment/jawbreaker, can SEEN in dps meters. People can be taught and gain skill and the result can be SEEN in a dps meter.


First of all I never promised that I would not post in any other thread concerning dps meters. I just said that was my last post in your thread, This thread was not started by you and if it was I would still say no to them because they are not needed.

Next in your thread you said if you have two players both with the same build and gear. So this means it is a solo run not a team. Then you said if one of them clears their rift faster that one has better skill. Meaning that skill is the only factor that determines whether you clear a rift faster or not. Then I called you out and showed you where you were wrong. But like "The Fonz" you could not admit when you are wrong. Heck you didn't even attempt it which "The Fonz" would do even though he would sound like he has a frog in his throat.

I showed you that there are other factors that determine whether or not a player clears a rift faster. Then you decided to say it is all about teams. And in this thread you decided to say it is about endgame teams. Ducking the points that I clearly pointed out that makes a difference between a player being able to clear a rift in the fastest time possible will not prove your point. It only proves that I am right.

Now you say that you have seen some players of those builds that still do not know how to play the build. Why is that the case, is it because they were on your team and part of your community? If so, then it might because they did not have those points (2-6). It could even be worse than that as far as I know. You might've wanted them to have certain pieces of gear and a totally different build than the one that they were playing. Or maybe you wanted them as a different class and build. Either a class that they did not have or didn't have the build or the gear to play it.

07/08/2014 05:25 AMPosted by Phatty
Read this if you wish to split the hairs with semantics and PLEASE promptly sit down.

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-knowledge-and-skill/


Skill is not applying what you learned, that is wisdom. Skill is what you pointed out is a trained ability or talent. Which would mean it is trained wisdom or talent. That person does not know what wisdom means. They need to look it up if they want to write an article like that because it is not accurate saying that skill is applied knowledge when it is not.

Anyone can apply what they have learned, but they still may not be skilled at what they are doing. That skill takes time to develop.
I guess they don't want you to get too mathy and crafty with the billions of specs they put in the game.
07/08/2014 12:15 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
07/08/2014 05:25 AMPosted by Phatty
Shadow you are reducing our discussion to semantics. You said you were going to stop responding.

If not:
All those things you listed affect dps readout. Some more and some less. Mob density and playing your build correct (skill) is easily teased out of that information a lot of times. Please remember I am running a group of end game players. They all have 2-6 of your points. That is why I _KNOW_ for a _FACT_ that skill of playing your build makes a big !@# difference. Knowing how to play jade, rainment/jawbreaker, can SEEN in dps meters. People can be taught and gain skill and the result can be SEEN in a dps meter.


First of all I never promised that I would not post in any other thread concerning dps meters. I just said that was my last post in your thread, This thread was not started by you and if it was I would still say no to them because they are not needed.

Next in your thread you said if you have two players both with the same build and gear. So this means it is a solo run not a team. Then you said if one of them clears their rift faster that one has better skill. Meaning that skill is the only factor that determines whether you clear a rift faster or not. Then I called you out and showed you where you were wrong. But like "The Fonz" you could not admit when you are wrong. Heck you didn't even attempt it which "The Fonz" would do even though he would sound like he has a frog in his throat.

I showed you that there are other factors that determine whether or not a player clears a rift faster. Then you decided to say it is all about teams. And in this thread you decided to say it is about endgame teams. Ducking the points that I clearly pointed out that makes a difference between a player being able to clear a rift in the fastest time possible will not prove your point. It only proves that I am right.

Now you say that you have seen some players of those builds that still do not know how to play the build. Why is that the case, is it because they were on your team and part of your community? If so, then it might because they did not have those points (2-6). It could even be worse than that as far as I know. You might've wanted them to have certain pieces of gear and a totally different build than the one that they were playing. Or maybe you wanted them as a different class and build. Either a class that they did not have or didn't have the build or the gear to play it.

07/08/2014 05:25 AMPosted by Phatty
Read this if you wish to split the hairs with semantics and PLEASE promptly sit down.

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-knowledge-and-skill/


Skill is not applying what you learned, that is wisdom. Skill is what you pointed out is a trained ability or talent. Which would mean it is trained wisdom or talent. That person does not know what wisdom means. They need to look it up if they want to write an article like that because it is not accurate saying that skill is applied knowledge when it is not.

Anyone can apply what they have learned, but they still may not be skilled at what they are doing. That skill takes time to develop.


Semantics about the word skill? I thought I was the troll not to fed? It doesn't matter what thread, right?

If skill matters in team, it will matter in solo. The argument from the other thread was about skill being a part of DPS feedback. Good try though, really.

What are you right about exactly? I never said you were wrong about those points. You're welcome to declare yourself the winner of the obvious.

However, your point that skill isn't a part of the DPS is clearly wrong.


1.Knowledge refers to theoretical information acquired about any subject whereas skills refer to practical application of that knowledge


I assume now you will admit that skill/wisdom of playing the build matters, right?

If so, sit down. If not, continue to be smacked down. Thanks.
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07/08/2014 12:44 PMPosted by Phatty
However, your point that skill isn't a part of the DPS is clearly wrong.


You were making it out as skill was the sole factor in dps or even the ability to play a build.

I see you do not understand wisdom is applying what you learned. Not the ability to be good at what you do, that is skill.

Also you were saying it takes a lot of skill just to play certain builds. When even someone other than Thanos came in and said that this game is easy and the skill to play one of the builds mentioned in your thread is not high.

07/08/2014 12:44 PMPosted by Phatty
I assume now you will admit that skill/wisdom of playing the build matters, right?

If so, sit down. If not, continue to be smacked down. Thanks.


The only thing that I said as far as skill goes in your thread was you were saying like it takes a skill level of 30+ (on a scale of 1 to 30) to be able to play a build. When I said that the skill required to play a build is around 2 at best, more so when you are solo.
Shadow, I challenge you to find posts where I said that. Is English your first language? If not, I'll excuse your lack of reading comprehension. If it is, I expect a formal apology and acquiescence that you are wrong about skill affecting dps.

Your paraphrasing and putting words in my mouth is extremely sad way of trying to wiggle out of your own error Btw.
Edited by Phatty#1821 on 7/8/2014 2:34 PM PDT
07/08/2014 02:32 PMPosted by Phatty
Your paraphrasing and putting words in my mouth is extremely sad way of trying to wiggle out of your own error Btw.

I am surprised you haven't realized you're in "Fire Bad! Beer Good!" territory here. The entire argument against is based upon some sort of narcissistic belief that a casual player should be able to impose their will on three power gamers. If you choose to ignore the entire foundation then you have a guy who obviously knows nothing about builds and has very little actual play experience suggesting that something as basic as the scientific method is pointless. I mean seriously. Who would want to construct a theory and do some testing, right?

Really? Where do you go from there?

edited to add:
ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIuR5TNyL8Y
Edited by Snapshot#1104 on 7/8/2014 3:01 PM PDT
Posts: 475
It isn't necessary.

AFAIK there is nothing you want meters for that you cannot already do (albeit with some more effort in some cases). People can and do test carefully to develop builds and discover and study game mechanics. People can and do evaluate builds and gear and player ability as requirements for joining exclusive communities or clans (e.g. a restricted t6 clan).

So what specifically do you want it for? What are you confused by now that you need the extra help with? Blizzard has a vested game design interest in making sure players have access to enough information so explain what specific scenarios that you are currently too ignorant in to play well because of a lack of damage meters?

Sounds to me like you just want to dumb down the game further. Blizzard also has a game design goal of having the player actually make decisions (ideally based on their knowledge and experience of game mechanics and the information provided). As it is now most players already don't have to do much work as 'the experts' share their information and class forums are riddled with great posts that detail the results of testing on mechanics and builds. So if you are struggling you already can copy.. how much easier do you need things? What's next, click a 'popular' build and the game automatically sets up the skills and runes, crafts what it can, and automatically equips upgrade drops as you get them?
07/08/2014 04:58 PMPosted by Dusk
It isn't necessary.

AFAIK there is nothing you want meters for that you cannot already do (albeit with some more effort in some cases). People can and do test carefully to develop builds and discover and study game mechanics. People can and do evaluate builds and gear and player ability as requirements for joining exclusive communities or clans (e.g. a restricted t6 clan).

So what specifically do you want it for? What are you confused by now that you need the extra help with? Blizzard has a vested game design interest in making sure players have access to enough information so explain what specific scenarios that you are currently too ignorant in to play well because of a lack of damage meters?

Sounds to me like you just want to dumb down the game further. Blizzard also has a game design goal of having the player actually make decisions (ideally based on their knowledge and experience of game mechanics and the information provided). As it is now most players already don't have to do much work as 'the experts' share their information and class forums are riddled with great posts that detail the results of testing on mechanics and builds. So if you are struggling you already can copy.. how much easier do you need things? What's next, click a 'popular' build and the game automatically sets up the skills and runes, crafts what it can, and automatically equips upgrade drops as you get them?


There are a lot of things that aren't necessary, per se.

There is a lot of sweeping generalizations that aren't true in your statements.

I guess the best way to answer you post is a sweeping answer.

Real time feedback of DPS is very useful for many reasons.

Real time feedback for dps has been used until 2 weeks ago and partially responsible for some of that expert information (if you didn't know). Many mechanics aren't dps related and can be tested in controlled environments. Other mechanics that require real time testing and practical feedback need dps meters to tease out certain things.

It's not ignorance. It's to be NOT ignorant.
Edited by Phatty#1821 on 7/8/2014 6:03 PM PDT
I think that'd be a cool idea.
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