Diablo® III

|_-) we need a "good" feedback thread in ptr

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07/05/2014 11:59 PMPosted by Myon
Putting any set bonuses aside for a moment, there is simply no other skill we have that is as good in long sustained fights as Sentry is. In a world where M6 didn't exist we would just be seeing "Why is Sentry so mandatory for greater rifts" instead.

I don't agree...We had

Scatter-Pet-Sentry --> M6's *....*

Trap-Echo & stun-luck-bola (not using the wrong "luck")

CoT JS Cluster Grenades

Rapid Fire Grenades loop punishment

(>^^)> Strafe

etc.

A lot of the builds aren't being used because the generators we now have are weaker... lack of aps. And players started to look at high cost Hatred Spenders (Archery skills) while ignoring the other spenders as "generators". It's hard to find players with 3 hatred spenders outside of M6 sentries. I think its a mentality problem... but I won't blame anyone here.
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07/06/2014 10:56 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
A lot of the builds aren't being used because the generators we now have are weaker... lack of aps. And players started to look at high cost Hatred Spenders (Archery skills) while ignoring the other spenders as "generators". It's hard to find players with 3 hatred spenders outside of M6 sentries. I think its a mentality problem... but I won't blame anyone here.


I attribute it to the Preparation - Punishment nerf DH has for 2.1. Quite a number of non-M6 DH builds actually make full use of the synergy between prep-punishment and Night stalker for their hatred fuel.

For example, I have a S&B based physical DH build which makes use of M3+ Garwolf.
It uses

  • Chakram - Razor Disk as a primary attack
  • Fan of Knives - Knives Expert
  • Vengence - Seethe
  • Companion - All + 2 wolves M4
  • Preparation - Punishment
  • Smoke Screen - Lingering Fog


The build sports a ThunderFury + Physical Lidless Wall sword and board combo. Fun to play with numerous Thunderfury procs (range proc ftw) but neutered in 2.1 due to the nerf.

On the other hand, having prep nerf effectively pushes up Sentry builds as M6 builds are often resource efficient, while other builds still struggle to manage their resources.
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07/05/2014 11:59 PMPosted by Myon
I feel like the issue of certain builds having superior scaling/sustained damage over time is really more a symptom of the way Sentries by themselves work though, just like Kirus said.

M6 just amplifies the effect because it makes them more lucrative to cast, but Sentry by itself is quite a powerhouse in long fights already (especially with the recent buff).

Think about it, if M6 didn't exist and we had some other random set instead, we would still be using Sentry for greater rifts because even 5 normal sentries firing at your target is something you can't beat with anything else when it comes to long fights.

Putting any set bonuses aside for a moment, there is simply no other skill we have that is as good in long sustained fights as Sentry is. In a world where M6 didn't exist we would just be seeing "Why is Sentry so mandatory for greater rifts" instead.


What build other than Sentries/M6 has superior sustained damage that also scales up over time? Sentries weren't widely used in prior to the M6 buff.

I don't doubt that even without M6, sentries could be a go-to in GRs, but that doesn't mean the introduction of new items and skill adjustments can't bring forth more options.

07/06/2014 10:31 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
If we want to build potential high sustain damage builds... it must come from our skills and not items. M6 never made sentries different, it gave them a high damage output. At launch they had damage cap at their maximum damage, and what? People didn't use them. It's lame that is what most players look at. The maximum damage.

M4 is different. And they are sentries without any cost. The pets are auto attacking without any setup time, and imo those are more powerful than our sentries. You get 600% damage with 1 slot that adds 3 zombie dogs and buff your overall dps with CtW, SA, wolf howl, provides healing and resistance, as well as backup Hatred.

I do not like the pets. To me they are the number one cause to our resource imbalance. They cost nothing, but need some wait time (cooldown based skill), and deal massive damage without our control. Remove the 4pc Marauder for a more aggressive affix... maybe something that is trap, device, or grenades related. M6 mary-go-round can get the cloak if they want 3 shadow wolves to tank for them.


I have to fundamentally disagree with your first point about high sustain builds coming from skills and not items. The skills themselves represent a baseline strength. Increased power comes from items, and unique builds also come from items.

Vanilla relied too much on the skill system to create diversity, and that caused nerf after nerf since there was always a skill or combination of skills that were superior. Virtually nothing but increased damage came from items, and since the gear progression was completely linear, nothing truly unique came out of it.

With RoS, we have more dimensions to play with. RCR, CDR, elemental damage, better crowd control, not to mention improved sets such as Marauder's. These new dimensions open the door for unique builds that make skills that wouldn't be otherwise used, excel. Think about it, would CA get used at all if it weren't for RCR? At least for me, things like this make the game FAR more enjoyable.

Yes, there are skills that are under-performing and need to be changed, but IMO, it's items that need to be tweaked to create more builds.
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07/07/2014 09:19 PMPosted by Trache
What build other than Sentries/M6 has superior sustained damage that also scales up over time? Sentries weren't widely used in prior to the M6 buff.

And people cry about not having enough dps when they don't use every tool =_=;

Spike Trap scales over time... but you see anyone using it now?
Spike Trap used to be the core for dealing damage and you can enhance any builds damage by adding a sentry. Some also people prefer Rain of Vengeance (i.e. myself).
And our set items revolved around these 3 ability on the RoS ptr/beta.

I do believe the devs read and take in suggestions which leads to the problem I see in your logic. You are saying item = builds. I'm saying skill = builds.

Our items are either designed to fit the devs' way of playing (their builds) or designed to fulfill the community cry about lack of ****

Marauder is the perfect example. Players were saying DH is squishy... we die more often than other class because we want to be exactly like the other class. Give us what they have -> Armor for Dex. I said it on my post /thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13181498039#1

The armor is designed for the melee class and will only benefit the monks. Demon Hunter's position in defense will not change... and will remain at last place. Sooner or later players will realize that they can't play like the other class because you will take more damage at melee and you will take a lot more damage without dodge.

    str class has 86% RIM w/o item affix
    int class has 86.5% RIM w/o item affix
    dex/armor monk has 86% RIM w/o item affix +33-50% dodge (skills)
    dex/armor dh has 80% RIM w/o item affix
    **RIM = Reduced Incoming Damage**

The number difference is a solid 30% RIM.
You may use skills to cover up this gap, but others can do the same and they do it better especially on percentage scaling abilities like the Perfectionist.

Using M4 you get a solid damage force that can tank. It also heals and increases your dps and resistance. No more squishy DH because you do not take as much damage playing at melee range (spread between you and your pets) and dot deals less damage when you are face tanking (higher resist and healing). You can also play range with the pets as the block your enemies. It's a very easy way to play and see the benefits of a range class when you have a party to tank for you.

M6 increases the damage output of sentries so they can deal the SAME damage of other skills. You can never again say they don't deal enough damage.
Sentry deals about the same damage as our primary attacks without M6...
Primary attacks should deal about 100-200% weapon damage, and spenders should be made meaningful for the time it needs to gain its power. If the spenders and generators deal about the same damage. I don't need the spenders because of my generators.

I find it boring if I was constantly spamming the same skill, whether that is generators or spenders. You really get the sense of a fast pace combat if you rotate unevenly between your attacks.
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07/03/2014 10:39 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
Monk, Barb, and Wiz all got some new information release, for good or bad. They get blue response. Us are still in the dark. I would blame ourselves especially those that seek to nerf the set power of Marauder...


Really the only one that can be blamed for a lack of blue response is myself. I've been reading Demon Hunter feedback (every class, really), but I never dropped a simple message saying "hey guys, we're paying attention". So, I don't think it's really your fellow community members fault when it's actually just a bad goatman's. However, I have been reading a lot of Demon Hunter feedback threads, and passing your feedback along.

I'll say hello in one of the Demon Hunter threads on the PTR Feedback forum to help consolidate the feedback, and keep the conversation rolling. We've got a new build on the way (no ETA, but soon!) to the PTR, and we'll have to see where things stand after you've had a chance to test things out. It's a very iterative process that can feel slow sometimes, but we definitely have not forgotten about Demon Hunters.
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07/08/2014 03:48 PMPosted by Grimiku
07/03/2014 10:39 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
Monk, Barb, and Wiz all got some new information release, for good or bad. They get blue response. Us are still in the dark. I would blame ourselves especially those that seek to nerf the set power of Marauder...


Really the only one that can be blamed for a lack of blue response is myself. I've been reading Demon Hunter feedback (every class, really), but I never dropped a simple message saying "hey guys, we're paying attention". So, I don't think it's really your fellow community members fault when it's actually just a bad goatman's. However, I have been reading a lot of Demon Hunter feedback threads, and passing your feedback along.

I'll say hello in one of the Demon Hunter threads on the PTR Feedback forum to help consolidate the feedback, and keep the conversation rolling. We've got a new build on the way (no ETA, but soon!) to the PTR, and we'll have to see where things stand after you've had a chance to test things out. It's a very iterative process that can feel slow sometimes, but we definitely have not forgotten about Demon Hunters.


Awesome, thanks for chiming in! It makes me happy that you've at least read the feedback we've been giving (note that its not all on the PTR feedback forum, please see DH specific class forum as well), since myself and many others want to see DH improved.
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Blizzard Employee
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07/08/2014 03:54 PMPosted by Dostovel
Awesome, thanks for chiming in! It makes me happy that you've at least read the feedback we've been giving (note that its not all on the PTR feedback forum, please see DH specific class forum as well), since myself and many others want to see DH improved.


One of my favorite streamers plays a Demon Hunter in T6, and I've been taking advantage of the knowledgeable folks in that channel to help get a better understanding of DH feedback I've been gathering. Mostly so that I personally understand it a little more, and help make sure that I can convey any concerns in a clear way. The reason that I'm pointing this out is so that you know I take it very seriously as well. :)
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Really? DH is so OP with that cloak that makes you invulnerable and with full marauder I can solo T6 with 500k DPS, just played with my pull Monk at GR with some DHs and asked for the repetitive items... What are you crying for?

I can say that I have spent around 10 hours building my DH and can do T6 really easy, and I have spent around 1,000 hours on my Monk and still is hard to me to solo T6 as DPS.
Edited by kito#1660 on 7/8/2014 4:19 PM PDT
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@Grimiku

I would like to say thank you for popping in (^_^)

I'm not worry about you guys reading feedback/discussion, but I'm worried that our discussion may not be the type of topic that is valued by the devs team :(

And it translates into the demon hunters are "fine" but we don't really feel "fine" while playing the game competing against ourselves. Everyone has a different point of view, and I hope more players will get involve in the ptr and see the changes then decide if they like it or not.

Please take the time as much as needed to edit the ptr. This one came out with too many flaws, if I many say so. It's incomplete but it did draw back some players for the construction.
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 7/8/2014 4:23 PM PDT
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I still miss my laser beams.
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07/08/2014 04:18 PMPosted by kito
Really? DH is so OP with that cloak that makes you invulnerable and with full marauder I can solo T6 with 500k DPS, just played with my pull Monk at GR with some DHs and asked for the repetitive items... What are you crying for?

I can say that I have spent around 10 hours building my DH and can do T6 really easy, and I have spent around 1,000 hours on my Monk and still is hard to me to solo T6 as DPS.

Except that this cloak is bugged and will be fixed.

I personal don't feel, that DH have a DPS problem AFTER they got some cool items. But they are still squizy.
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07/08/2014 04:49 PMPosted by Jahor
I personal don't feel, that DH have a DPS problem AFTER they got some cool items. But they are still squizy.

Non-M6 DHs have a DPS problem.
EDIT: And in part, it stems from their resource problem, but not entirely.
Edited by Childe#1683 on 7/8/2014 5:04 PM PDT
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does any of the dev team play a demon hunter as their main?
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Thank you blues for browsing DH forum.

I just want to let you know why DH flourish under M6. Just do the simple mathematics. If a DH require 5 Sentries firing without any resources constraint to be able to match the dps of other OP classes, just imagine how underwhelming a DH is without M6 i.e. 1/5 of the dps. Before someone start disagreeing, of course this is just a simple assumption without other builds been optimize.
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07/08/2014 06:00 PMPosted by Cameo
Thank you blues for browsing DH forum.

I just want to let you know why DH flourish under M6. Just do the simple mathematics. If a DH require 5 Sentries firing without any resources constraint to be able to match the dps of other OP classes, just imagine how underwhelming a DH is without M6 i.e. 1/5 of the dps. Before someone start disagreeing, of course this is just a simple assumption without other builds been optimize.


Also M6 means you don't need to focus on shooting, just avoiding mechanics. Because your sentries and zoo squad do all the DPS.
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07/08/2014 03:48 PMPosted by Grimiku
07/03/2014 10:39 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
Monk, Barb, and Wiz all got some new information release, for good or bad. They get blue response. Us are still in the dark. I would blame ourselves especially those that seek to nerf the set power of Marauder...


Really the only one that can be blamed for a lack of blue response is myself. I've been reading Demon Hunter feedback (every class, really), but I never dropped a simple message saying "hey guys, we're paying attention". So, I don't think it's really your fellow community members fault when it's actually just a bad goatman's. However, I have been reading a lot of Demon Hunter feedback threads, and passing your feedback along.

I'll say hello in one of the Demon Hunter threads on the PTR Feedback forum to help consolidate the feedback, and keep the conversation rolling. We've got a new build on the way (no ETA, but soon!) to the PTR, and we'll have to see where things stand after you've had a chance to test things out. It's a very iterative process that can feel slow sometimes, but we definitely have not forgotten about Demon Hunters.


I'm catching up on the threads now, but..
Please don't forget about Chakrams! Haven't heard/seen many, if any buffs about them
And please don't take away my physical Razor disks

<3
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Posted by Nevalistis
the damage these abilities do with now scale upward over time, rewarding you for spending additional time channeling.

If this were implemented into RF it would be cool.


I agree hahariz. Well not every rune though, but that should be one of the runes. And to keep it from getting too powerful either cap how much the damage can go up or have the resource cost also go up with damage over time (for that one rune only).
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Anyone agree that Vengeance should be revisited ?

I mean, this is our WotB, our Archon, our AC, Epiphany, (sorry can't recall equivalent for WD). Talking about buffing other skills without messing with M6.

Playing mostly in T6, I have not seen this skill used by other end-game DH. I love this skill when I first used it back in March but just doesn't worth the 1 skill slot as you move up in difficulty.

The long cooldown with no legendary or passive/active skill support is the main concern for this skill They could at least tweak Nats/Shadow 4 pc for this skill instead of the RoV/Shadow power.

Other points for PTR (also posted on other topics):
1) Rockets from CA Shooting Stars still has messy targeting system

2) Full broadside should be made fire and Arsenal to physical. Fire is already strong in itself, at least give the rockets to physical where it should be.

3) Prep/punishment - I always thought this was one of the highlights of the Resource Management skills of a DH which rivals M6. Killing this good alternative, well, leaves non-M6 users with less desirable/remotely viable alternatives which will point their noses back to M6.

4) Engineering passive should be revisited as well. With Bomba Ruckshak quiver, I doubt any experienced DH will add this passive.
Edited by Primus#6674 on 7/9/2014 4:22 AM PDT
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