Diablo® III

major problem with wizzards defense, armors.

hello guys. i really like the way wiz is going with the newest ptr build, i mean yes, there is still some work that needs to be done, but at least we are competitive now. channeling spells still need a little work and other elements than fire are a little bit behind, lightning is on a good way, cold and arcane are still a little bad. havent tested the new archon yet, we will see how it works out with the lvl50 legendary CDR gem, CDR belt etc.

but this thread is about something other. a major problem in my opinion, armors. we have 3 armors, only 1 can be active.

99% of all wiz choose energy armor - prismatic for high lvl plays, because its the best one for EHP stats. its a must in endgame in order to survive.

and i think this kind of limits our freedom with armors. i rly would like to play with frost armor aura, or shocking aspect, or pinpoint barrier, for tal set, EE passive or whatever. but than i lose so much toughness, its just not a good trad off.

we need a solution for this problem. i dont have a good one.. i mean yes, i have one, but in order for it to work, all 3 armors need to be reworked entirely, this would take too much time for 2.1

i have a simple idea, maybe OP or not good at all. maybe someone of you guys has a better idea, a solution thats easy to implement so it could make it into 2.1

my idea is to merge the prismatic rune of energyarmor with blur. so blur gives 17% dmg reduce and 25% all res.

and than give all 3 armors a 35% armor increase as baseline, remove the -energy from energyarmor and 12% melee dmg reduction from frost armor and add AP REG or APOC to energy armor.

this way base armors (no runes) would be like this:

frost armor: 35% armor, chills/freezes enemies that hit you
lightning armor: 35% armor, shocks neaby enemies
energy armor: 35% armor, 2 apreg / 4apoc (random numbers)

the new prismatic rune of energy armor: your elemtal attacks have a chance to proc other elements. so when you attack with a firespell, you have chance that this firespell also deals colddmg, so its easier to proc EE or tal rasha meteors, this is a rune for multi ele builds.

and in order to prevent ice armor - crystalize (20% armor when an enemie hits you) to become the new "energy armor prismatic must have", change crystalize to:

when you freeze an enemie, regenerate some AP.

or

your frost attacks have a chance to freeze enemies or increase the freeze duration of enemies who are already frozen

ur thoughts?

or are you happy to go for a no brainer skill, prismatic all the way and ignore everything else?
Edited by karajobob#2444 on 7/18/2014 1:54 PM PDT
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07/18/2014 01:22 PMPosted by karajobob
or are you happy to go for a no brainer skill, prismatic all the way and ignore everything else?


No, it's lame. Your ideas sound solid.
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Go post this on the PTR feedback and get some bumps over there too. It's definitely an interesting and well thought out post. That said maybe we can refine it more here first.

For example... my critique of this would be that it doesn't fit the aim of storm armor IMO. I think storm armor is meant to be more of an offensive skill which is why it currently offers no defensive boosts. While I like where you propose to take it I doubt it is the developers intent for that skill.

So maybe....

Blur: Increases AR by 25% and an addition reduces all damage received by 12%
Base frost armor: 35% armor, chills/freezes enemies that hit you
Base energy armor: 35% armor, 2 apreg / 4apoc (random numbers)
Base lightning armor: Increases lightning damage by 10% and shocks nearby enemies for XXX weapon damage

This keeps your vision for frost and energy armor... and is attempting to make lightning armor very appealing to lightning builds specifically.

and yes 12% reduction on blur makes a lot more sense. Blur is a strong passive as is... and adding +25% AR to it makes it bonkers... I think it is more realistic (and thus more likely to be listened to) if you try to balance it more. Maybe the math experts can crunch the numbers as to how much of a boost the 25% AR is to determine where the damage reduction number should be to be only a small buff to the passive.

This is all just spitballing though. I didn't give this too much thought. Just wanted to point out one potential flaw.
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They can simply have all 3 armors provide same amount of armor and just have different secondaries.
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But that is basically making them all the same thing skill with just 3x the number of runes. Since all that's changing is secondary effects which is kind of what runes do. Currently...

Storm armor = purely offensive... it offers no defensive boost
Ice armor = reduces melee damage and chills
Energy Armor = +% armor and reduces your AP pool

So they are very different currently. What you propose would make them all way too similar in my book. Now I wish they all WERE one skill... and we had two more fun skills to play around with (fire wall from diablo 1!)... but they aren't making such a large change now short of an expansion I imagine.

That was kind of my point in my previous post too... I doubt they are going to want to make them all TOO similar and are going to want to honor the original intent of them to some extent.
Edited by Eflin#1809 on 7/18/2014 2:53 PM PDT
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I think maybe they could cover different defensive aspects. Ice armor tries to replace toughness for CC, which is alright but npt enaugh. Needs more armor or meelee reduction/phisical res by that matter. Lighting armor should either grant a significant offensive boost (%20+ elemental dmg, IAS, etc) or focus some defensive atributes on AR or range dmg reduction %20+.
What say you guys?
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I think this is a very bad ideal for a number of very good reasons.

Your going to weaken Wizard Def.

1.) Wizards Armors are good for so many different things and were going to be doing so many different things come 2.1.

2.) Greater Rifts Higher Levels one shots you. Every Wizard should have the brains to be using Force Armor at this point. At least we that have been around for a spell no the power of Force Armor+Unstable Anomaly is. And this time around we got Firebirds 4pc and yes we will most likely be using the Firebird and fire builds at this same level. It will probly be worth it to give up some dps and work Skeleton Kings shoulds. All that with Force Armor.

3.) I think Storm Armor could realy use that 35% to armor though. But even with out it I will be using it to speed farm outside of greater rifts and lower level Grifts.

4.) Crystilize on Ice Armor is to awsome to let go as is the 12% meele reduction. This keeps me alive when soloing much better then Prismatic. I use this for thoughs large groups of litttle realy fast mobs that mob you and pin you in meele range. I don't like Teleport becouse I use Duplicates and the like for def.

To many reasons not to go this route.
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and than give all 3 armors a 35% armor increase as baseline, remove the -energy from energyarmor and 12% melee dmg reduction from frost armor and add AP REG or APOC to energy armor.

this way base armors (no runes) would be like this:

frost armor: 35% armor, chills/freezes enemies that hit you
Storm armor: 35% armor, shocks neaby enemies
energy armor: 35% armor, 2 apreg / 4apoc (random numbers)


Man, i had the exact same idea today, i was about to create a thread suggesting it. =x

I totally agree with you about Wizard' survivability... We need a buff in this department too, not just DPS. We're too squishy compared to other classes, and we're kinda forced in 99% of the situations to pick Energy Armor/Prismatic.

All 3 armors are already not fun at all to play, and together with Force Weapon, they're two ''use and forget'' spells, cause they dont have an active component like the Demon Hunter' Companions, and of course theres the problem with this design that only lets us have 4 Active Slots, 3 if you count Familiar, which is already similar to Force Weapon... but this is for another topic....

Back to the Armors spells... Neither Storm Armor or Frost Armor can be options for most of T6 builds, and any higher Greater Rift level, cause we're pidgeonholed into Energy Armor, so the only solution i see that doesnt force us to pick it, would be:

Make the 35% armor buff baseline to Wizards.

or

Do as the OP said: Make all 3 Armor Spells give 35% armor (which would make more sense) plus the aditional flavor effect:

Frost armor: 35% armor, chills/freezes enemies that hit you.
Storm armor: 35% armor, shocks neaby enemies.
Energy armor: 35% armor, 2 apreg / 4apoc (or something like that..)

This way i could REALLY see people actually considering the other Armors as options...
Edited by WARRADA#1830 on 7/18/2014 5:27 PM PDT
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07/18/2014 02:53 PMPosted by Eflin
But that is basically making them all the same thing skill with just 3x the number of runes. Since all that's changing is secondary effects which is kind of what runes do. Currently...

Storm armor = purely offensive... it offers no defensive boost
Ice armor = reduces melee damage and chills
Energy Armor = +% armor and reduces your AP pool

So they are very different currently. What you propose would make them all way too similar in my book. Now I wish they all WERE one skill... and we had two more fun skills to play around with (fire wall from diablo 1!)... but they aren't making such a large change now short of an expansion I imagine.

That was kind of my point in my previous post too... I doubt they are going to want to make them all TOO similar and are going to want to honor the original intent of them to some extent.


why ? only the defense bonus is baseline and the same on all armors. the secondary bonus is what matters, in order to get different builds and use different armors for different builds.

currently everyone is forced to play with energy armor prismatic for high grifts/t6 lvls. so you are stuck with 1 armor and 1 rune. no diversety.

with the suggested change - you can choose whatever armor and whatever rune you want for your build - because the EHP stats are the same on all armors. you are no longer stuck with prismatic armor...

frostarmor: CC/slow role, synergy with cold blooded
lightning armor: DPS role, synergy with stun passive for CC
energy armor: utility role
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my suggestion:

ice armor

-increase melee reduction to 25-30%.

storm armor

-increase movespeed by 15%
- range attackers are shocked by x% weapon damage as lightning. (remove reactive armor rune and replace with something else)

rune:

shock - Increases duration of shield and doubles damage absorption.
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I agree with the spirit of the idea, but I also agree that it makes the armors too similar. Each armor should provide you with defense, yes, but lets be a bit imaginative and avoid making them all +35% Armor. Something like...

Storm Armor

  • For Ranged.
  • Reduces damage from enemies more than 15 yards away by 30% and closer enemies by 15%.


Ice Armor

  • For Melee.
  • Reduces damage from enemies less than 15 yards away by 30% and farther enemies by 15%.


Energy Armor

  • For Balance.
  • Reduces damage from all enemies by 20%.


(numbers can be changed)

Or maybe be even more creative. Like make Energy Armor use your AP pool as a shield / damage reduction, make Storm Armor increase your defenses as long as you're attacking, make Ice Armor give you defense when you stand still (like Unwavering... but different somehow).

Or maybe just sticking with 35% Armor isn't so bad after all... At least then the runes could differentiate themselves more.
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Remove mitigation from the armor spells (or make their mitigation uniform) and make them unique through offensive abilities provided by runes. Our mitigation should come from passives like Dominance, Blur, Galvanizing Ward or spells like Diamond Skin, Mirror Image, Slow Time. These need to be buffed big time. Shields need to scale with HP rather than be static. MI needs to be more durable, last longer and draw fire more effectively. Slow Time needs to follow the Wizard.
Edited by tommos#1135 on 7/19/2014 4:58 AM PDT
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Slow time do's not need to follow us but what would be nice is when you cast a second one or more before the first one expires that it do's not disappare.

Also I would like it to work on everything.

The slow time following us around makes Archon differnt and should remain so.

Also nothing wrong with Ice Armor or Energy Armor. Storm Armor on the other hand could very much use a Def boost of some kind.

Even so I use all this armors for differnt builds and differnt reasons.

Last but not least.

No matter how you change them there will always be 1 rune that 99% of the people agree is to good not to use for Def.

And I am glade to see Ice Armor and Storm Armor dmg output getting some love too in ptr.
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... 99% of all wiz choose energy armor - prismatic for high lvl plays, because its the best one for EHP stats. its a must in endgame in order to survive. ... and i think this kind of limits our freedom with armors. i rly would like to play with frost armor aura, or shocking aspect, or pinpoint barrier, for tal set, EE passive or whatever. but than i lose so much toughness, its just not a good trad off. ... we need a solution for this problem. i dont have a good one. ...


The problem is that unlike the other classes who are subject to the 30% worse mitigation than Crusaders/Barbs/Monk, the Wizard doesn't generally have pets (WD) or sentries (DH) to do its damage. The Hydra is the one exception, but generally wizards do not work this way. Additionally, at the top levels being an ostensibly "ranged" class doesn't really prevent you from taking just as many hits as the ostensibly "melee" classes.

As a direct result, Energy Armor (used by 71% of top 25% SC wizards) has become mandatory for essentially all top-tier builds, and Blur (used by 60% of top 25% SC wizards) is treated somewhat similarly. http://diablo.somepage.com/popular/wizard#passive-skills. This kills build diversity although it allows wizards to compete with the other classes that either have pets/sentries or have naturally better mitigation.

The are many potential solutions to this problem, and OP's solution is viable although it's unnecessarily complex. Here's some simple solutions that have probably been proposed before, but probably will never be implemented because it makes such a big changes:

Idea 1:
(1) Buff Blur to 30% mitigation, and (2) nerf Energy Armor to bring it in line with the other Armors.

philosophy:
Eliminates EA as a mandatory active passive, greatly improving the "FUN" factor of playing Wizard with more active skills or choices for active passives. It is also extremely easy to implement and balance. However, Blur now becomes absolutely mandatory and too good to pass up. This is a net gain IMO, because on balance, I'd rather have a mandatory passive than a mandatory active passive.

Idea 2:
(1) eliminate the basic 30% worse mitigation factor for wizards, (2) eliminate Blur, and (3) nerf Energy Armor to bring it in line with the other Armors.

philosophy:
Eliminates both EA and Blur as essentially mandatory skills, greatly improving build diversity and the "FUN" factor of playing Wizard with more active skills. However, this could be seen as too much of a net buff to the class in general because as compared to "Idea 1" it effectively gives the class one more passive slot. IMO this would contribute greatly to improving class balance.

Edit: content and typos
Edited by Kingslayer#1561 on 7/20/2014 3:52 PM PDT
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How about giving Storm armor a regenerating shield its a system they all ready have in place. It will help you take the 1 shot kills and not weaken your healing. If you worry about scaling then have it scale with your hps.

Its different to the other armors but still a sort of defence.
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