Diablo® III

Blizz, why are crusaders more 'barbaric'?

Best toughness- Crusaders
Best in your face melee class- Crusaders

I miss the vanilla barb.
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I don't mind the toughness since crusaders are supposed to be heavily clad in armor and wears shield. what bothers is that they can do more damage than barbs.
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Crusaders aren't really in your face melee at this point. Holy shotgun, Firestarter and Lord Commander are all ranged
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07/23/2014 03:08 PMPosted by Yumhi
Crusaders aren't really in your face melee at this point. Holy shotgun, Firestarter and Lord Commander are all ranged


Both Holy Shotgun, and Firestarter still require you to be in melee range to achieve maximum damage out of them. For Holy Shotgun, you can get up to 125m-200m+ if you let all 3 beams hit that one target. For Firestarter, standing out in range casting Fist of the Heavens makes the legendary affix from Darklight useless if there is no one around.
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You know barbarians or berserkers in games are stereotypically heavy damage ( which they don't have in d3) at the cost of low defense.

And if you are talking about RLTW WW barb in vanilla they weren't exactly "tanky" per say but it was more to do with their high healing from tornado ticks and you did not necessarily need face tank at all. You could just run off and watch your tornados melt them
Edited by capitaledge#6810 on 7/23/2014 5:46 PM PDT
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07/22/2014 11:44 AMPosted by CrossFinder
I don't mind the toughness since crusaders are supposed to be heavily clad in armor and wears shield. what bothers is that they can do more damage than barbs.


Keeping that in mind, what else would you suggest to make the Barbarians more 'barbaric' than the Crusaders?
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I would change the IK set to either give perma WoTB, or some sort of major buff to whirlwind.

I never envisioned a Barbarian being dependent on 3 pets following him around, and i'm sure i'm not in the minority here. I want to whirlwind into things, causing chaos and destruction everywhere I go.
If I carelessly whirlwind into 4 arcane sentries and die, that's fine, I don't expect to be indestructible.
Even with the buffs to WW on the PTR, I feel it's still a bit lacking to be honest.

And as for the Raekor's set, why is so much effort being spent on Furious charge? Do the vast majority of Barbarians actually want to charge around annoying their group mates pulling all mobs with them? If you insist on keeping this set around, then at least change it so that it no longer pulls mobs with you, that's just irritating to everyone else around.

Right now Barbs just feel too frail for the amount of damage they do.
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07/23/2014 06:35 PMPosted by Araxom
07/22/2014 11:44 AMPosted by CrossFinder
I don't mind the toughness since crusaders are supposed to be heavily clad in armor and wears shield. what bothers is that they can do more damage than barbs.


Keeping that in mind, what else would you suggest to make the Barbarians more 'barbaric' than the Crusaders?


Improve barbarian general surivability in the front not by " an item" . Melee chracter mean " fight in the front, stay there to kill" not " rabbit "

Have you or even dev team play barbarian in T6+ higer difficultes game? show my how to fight RIme and the electricty rift gurad with melee character in a group wtih 3 shooter without death.

My only suggestion: please ask dev team play the game with groups in high difficultes T6+.

I think how to DONE it is the responsbiilty of DEV team not player.
Edited by MADTHUNDER2#3452 on 7/23/2014 7:02 PM PDT
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07/23/2014 06:35 PMPosted by Araxom
07/22/2014 11:44 AMPosted by CrossFinder
I don't mind the toughness since crusaders are supposed to be heavily clad in armor and wears shield. what bothers is that they can do more damage than barbs.


Keeping that in mind, what else would you suggest to make the Barbarians more 'barbaric' than the Crusaders?


Having played the PTR extensively the past week with upgraded gems, buffed 2 handers and buffed 1 handers my suggestions to make barbs more barbaric is this:

1. Spenders, at least 30% buff. Current DPS with all buffs is still not enough, including leg gems. Barbarians hit first and dont ask questions. ATM they are hitting and hitting and then getting ignored.

2. Buffs from Depth Digger pants and legendary gems to generators are disproportionate to spenders, more affixes by gear or direct buffs to spenders is needed to increase their damage (not just HOTA/SS, but all spenders). So an affix that reads "this increases melee damage" would be well received. Remember Conan the Barbarian (with big Arnie)? Well at the moment in D3, Arnie is the comic relief/sidkick and that punie Wizzard is the hero.

3. E&M bug fix...fix was a good addition, thankyou as this helps a lot with fury generation. For build diversity, other fixes should be made to generate fury for non MOTE builds. For example, Zapros highly supported recent thread of barb recommended changes included making WW a fury generator attack, because it should be. Arnie swung a big ar#@e weapon, he didnt jump around to kill. In fact I dont think Ive ever seen Arnie jump in any movie.

4. Our ability to survive is a major issue. More so in the PTR for some reason. I often leap to my death as I am instantly killed by an elite pack that has lightning or some other horrible affix. Even with Warcy and Threatening Shout. When Arnie fell into the pit with the Giant snake, he didnt die on impact (or the movie would be 30 mins long), he rolled over and cut its head off.

5. You have done some good work with the Raekers set in the PTR. Please look at the IK set next. There are multiple threads with good suggestions for its rebuild throughout the forum. Arnies closest thing to a set was having more than just a loin cloth on. Perhaps theres a message in that for sets full stop.

6. Crusaders have an almost perma Akarats champion end game build, we used to have a perma WOTB endgame build. Can we get a set that does something similar to Akkans for WOTB? I have no Arnie analogy for that other than wanting to see a blizzard reply on behalf of perma WOTB along the lines of...........................Ill be back.

Cheers
CC123
Edited by CC123#1310 on 7/23/2014 7:40 PM PDT
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07/23/2014 06:35 PMPosted by Araxom
07/22/2014 11:44 AMPosted by CrossFinder
I don't mind the toughness since crusaders are supposed to be heavily clad in armor and wears shield. what bothers is that they can do more damage than barbs.


Keeping that in mind, what else would you suggest to make the Barbarians more 'barbaric' than the Crusaders?


Dude there's like a 20+ pages full of suggestions dated 6/23/14. A blue responded about getting input but had no follow up:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13241704056

So hopefully this is not a hit and run again and you, as a blue, will respond to this thread
Edited by Cerealkiller#1993 on 7/23/2014 7:10 PM PDT
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07/23/2014 06:35 PMPosted by Araxom
Keeping that in mind, what else would you suggest to make the Barbarians more 'barbaric' than the Crusaders?
More Fury generation per use of a primary skill. More damage per use of a secondary skill. More legendaries which significantly affect/improve secondary skills. Spender based builds aren't all that effective because it takes forever to build up the Fury to do much, the spenders themselves don't do enough damage, and higher difficulties dish out absurd amounts of damage if you stand in combat trying to fill your Fury bar with primary generators.
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Fury on crit

Passive similar to brawler, but giving armor % instead of damage.

Superstition could use a buff also, more fury, more resistance.

Big buff to.spenders, sets are cool and all, mote, raekors, but I still want to squash stuff with.my hammer or crush enemies to death with rocks. (Not alone here)

More love for SnB playstyles, passive should give more fury per block, and some sort of flat damage buff.

someone suggested making battle rage effect the party also, that would be amazing.

Pound of flesh, maybe make it buff bleed effects, an increase to bleeds damage, and a shorter bleed duration.
Edited by RagingKoala#1984 on 7/23/2014 8:43 PM PDT
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07/23/2014 06:35 PMPosted by Araxom
Keeping that in mind, what else would you suggest to make the Barbarians more 'barbaric' than the Crusaders?


Barbarians are also berserkers. What does that mean? It should be a dps class, with toughness enough to survive but more focused on a ''kill before get killed'' strategy. It should have insane burst damage, not focused in damage over time skills like Earthquake and Rend (although I love both). Currently it is lost between tank and dps.
Edited by Hadd#1524 on 7/23/2014 9:14 PM PDT
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07/23/2014 06:35 PMPosted by Araxom
07/22/2014 11:44 AMPosted by CrossFinder
I don't mind the toughness since crusaders are supposed to be heavily clad in armor and wears shield. what bothers is that they can do more damage than barbs.


Keeping that in mind, what else would you suggest to make the Barbarians more 'barbaric' than the Crusaders?


First and foremost, every Crusader skill has higher %dmg than barbarian skills.

And the last nail of the coffin is the perma akarat.
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I wrote up a huge in depth response, but honestly what's the point. May as well just put down the TLDR version since it's likely to be overlooked anyways.

1. Our passive skills are out of date. Compare bloodthirst to wrathful as a perfect example.

2. You gouged our synergy and ways to sustain prior to ROS being released - see Lifesteal and Itf. Without some way to compensate the class meaningfully in a unique way we are always going to be stuck playing the way we do now- just like a ranged class dealing a minor burst of damage then running while dots tick or CD's come back up.

3. Our overall item support is lacking in comparison to the other classes. We have no 6 set bonus, very few mighty weapons that actually do anything worthwhile (see: none) and we have two mighty belts worth using.

4. Our overall mobility and damage is lacking due to losing perma WOTB (which you instantly gave the possibility to Crusaders after taking it away from us, why?). No amount of tweaks or changes short of giving us this ability back will replicate it.

5. The IK set bonuses were good at level 60 in 2.0. Please update them and perhaps use this to give us an official 6 piece class set bonus. Not a 5 piece with a seperate drop we may or may not ever get to see.

Give us back brutal synergistic gameplay we can enjoy. Perma WOTB (attainable in some fashion or another), buffed LPFS and some kind of item affix that gives fury on crit would go a long way.
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Fury on Crit and channelling fury into more Wrath are barbaric :)

Also, give barbs a skill that has them kill a WD pet or DH sentry in exchange for 5 seconds of WotB. That is barbaric.
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07/23/2014 06:35 PMPosted by Araxom
07/22/2014 11:44 AMPosted by CrossFinder
I don't mind the toughness since crusaders are supposed to be heavily clad in armor and wears shield. what bothers is that they can do more damage than barbs.


Keeping that in mind, what else would you suggest to make the Barbarians more 'barbaric' than the Crusaders?


Here goes.... Buff... WW MORE.

For survival I don't think barb class itself needs something but the affix lightning needs to be nerfed or flat out removed

07/23/2014 09:39 PMPosted by Cain

1. Our passive skills are out of date. Compare bloodthirst to wrathful as a perfect example.

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What you mean u want 300 healing more per fury? Cause that's the only difference. Wrathful is not that much more powerful. It's like a carbon copy, more like too homogenized than outdated
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07/23/2014 10:07 PMPosted by capitaledge
What you mean u want 300 healing more per fury? Cause that's the only difference. Wrathful is not that much more powerful. It's like a carbon copy, more like too homogenized than outdated


What I mean to say is post updates the Crusader passive skills show just how much better ours can become. There is zero reason why they should have 300 more healing per resource spent on a carbon copy passive skill. I was using this to illustrate my point.
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