Diablo® III

Legendary Gems no longer infinite means stale game

08/14/2014 07:32 PMPosted by Jeremy
since when are the gems not content? wtf are you on? no one in this thread is talking about greater rifts. this thread is about the gems which are in fact, new content in 2.1. I cant believe I actually had to explain this to you. just read the title of the thread if you are seriously that confused.


Gems don't add any new gameplay. Even when you can upgrade them forever. The Greater Rift is what you are actually playing.

There's nothing inherently better about being able to upgrade a gem forever compared to being able to upgrade a gem to the rank of the greater rift level you can achieve.

If you can upgrade gems infinitely, regardless of GR tier, you do GR until you get to the top time efficient spot, and then repeat it, infinitely. Is that really something you want to do? What GRift tier you can reach doesn't even matter in this case, and it's just a character progression path that you are forced to do (and spend obscene amounts of time on for noticeable effects from the ranking up, or else people will quickly max out the GRift. This is why the last patch required 200 successful upgrades at low % chances in order to simply unlock the gem's secondary effect.)

Under this system, the focus is where it should be: getting further into the greater rift. As long as you can continue to do that, your gems can continue to be upgraded. Yes, you will "soft-cap" early, but that is exactly what the GRift system is designed to make you try to work around, by gearing up better, getting more paragon levels, changing your build, etc.
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08/14/2014 07:32 PMPosted by Jeremy
since when are the gems not content? wtf are you on? no one in this thread is talking about greater rifts. this thread is about the gems which are in fact, new content in 2.1. I cant believe I actually had to explain this to you. just read the title of the thread if you are seriously that confused.


Gems don't add any new gameplay. Even when you can upgrade them forever. The Greater Rift is what you are actually playing.

Under this system, the focus is where it should be: getting further into the greater rift. As long as you can continue to do that, your gems can continue to be upgraded. Yes, you will "soft-cap" early, but that is exactly what the GRift system is designed to make you try to work around, by gearing up better, getting more paragon levels, changing your build, etc.


most gems wont reach past level 50. and blizzards basically made it impossible to rank your gem past the GRift in which you reached. so if you can only reach GR30... you are basically stuck with a gem that isn't much better than the crit damage you swapped out for it.

and the GRift system wasn't designed to make you try to work around by gearing up better, getting more paragon levels etc... we can do all of that in normal t6 rifts. gems are tied to grifts, once the gems reach their cap, then what? this is why there shouldn't be a cap.
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08/14/2014 07:45 PMPosted by Smeet
Under this system, the focus is where it should be: getting further into the greater rift. As long as you can continue to do that, your gems can continue to be upgraded. Yes, you will "soft-cap" early, but that is exactly what the GRift system is designed to make you try to work around, by gearing up better, getting more paragon levels, changing your build, etc.


Some of us are already at BiS or Near BiS. There is no 'gearing up better'. Some of us are also at PLvL 500, 600, and 700+, meaning the time expenditure to gain that PLvL for the miniscule power gain is getting into the range of 'completely unreasonable'. As for changing build? No, as we've already seen the design of GRs has homogenized builds among classes even more than what we had pre-PTR in T6. Not only that, it's just going to get worse, because the harder content gets.. the less viable builds will quickly be swept under the rug in favor of the only ones that work.

Basically it's an arbitrary gate, not that unlike the D3V inferno gating. You can't upgrade your gems anymore, at least not realistically. You can't PLvL your way through the next GR level, and you can't progress. Not until the developer arbitrarily chooses to buff a class, buff a skill or add a legendary or nerf the content so that the player can progress. Progression ends up stagnating and we twiddle our thumbs waiting for the developer to step in and actually allow us to play the only aspect of the 'end game' that matters again.
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08/14/2014 08:05 PMPosted by Jeremy
you are basically stuck with a gem that isn't much better than the crit damage you swapped out for it.


This is a number tuning issue, not an issue with the gem upgrade path. Gems get too low of a bonus per rank, making them only marginally better than stat replaced (especially on amulets, which have naturally higher rolls)

08/14/2014 08:42 PMPosted by Fahita
Basically it's an arbitrary gate, not that unlike the D3V inferno gating. You can't upgrade your gems anymore, at least not realistically. You can't PLvL your way through the next GR level, and you can't progress.


And this is an issue with GRift tier tuning. They scale too fast, so upgrading Paragon/Gems doesn't push you up a tier.

I like this method of upgrading gems, but it does require blizz to make greater rifts something that you can actually progress though exclusively on gem ranks once your gear is fully optimized. The gems don't need to be infinitely upgradeable, but GRift 50 should be possible once you are in 99% optimized gear with rank 50-52 gems in your jewelery (you likely have capped out all relevant paragon points by then).

Currently it isn't. That's the problem, not that you can't upgrade your gems forever.

Although under that model it wouldn't take TOO long before people finished GR100, since progression would at that point become pretty much linear. (as would the old model, it would just be a slower linear progression... if it takes 100 gem levels to move up 1 GR reliably, it's still just as painful as paragon exp grinding is today, and is really just the illusion of progression, but hey, most of gaming is psychological anyway.

EDIT: This feature also plays a lot nicer in a season environment, where you are starting off from square 1 again. GRifts in general are less content for people who are already maximized, since there's very little room for growth anyway. Infinite upgrading gems would have been too slow to do anything with current GR tuning based on previous patch iterations.
Edited by Smeet#1144 on 8/14/2014 9:08 PM PDT
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08/14/2014 09:05 PMPosted by Smeet
And this is an issue with GRift tier tuning. They scale too fast, so upgrading Paragon/Gems doesn't push you up a tier.


Yep. This is the inherent problem The GRs scale too fast compared to legendary gem scaling and PLvL progression.

This can be fixed by tweaking the gems, and making the minimum 'floor' chance of them upgrading higher. Like at bare minimum you'll have at least a 15, 20 or 25% chance to upgrade a gem as long as it's within 1 - 3 ranks of your finished GR. And make the gems scale better.

It can also be fixed by tweaking GR scaling so that they don't scale nearly as fast or as intensely as they do now... and this is probably the most reasonable fix. Instead of GR mobs gaining 30% more health and damage with each level.. they get say 8% or 10%. Something that doesn't outpace the gem leveling to such a huge extent.

They can also do a combination of both and achieve the same result.

*edit* Also, capping the experience needed to gain a PLvL at something reasonable also wouldn't be a bad idea. Like.. 3 - 5 billion. That's about an hour's worth of exping per level.
Edited by Fahita#1469 on 8/14/2014 9:17 PM PDT
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08/14/2014 06:14 PMPosted by Jeremy
08/14/2014 05:01 PMPosted by Brad
...
No, that's not why. It was a success because people that wanted stat allocation and customization had some example if that. It may not have had as big of an impact as Diablo 2's stats, but that's why we got Paragons, and that's why it was a success. It had nothing to do with the infinite part. The account wide feature was implemented so we wouldn't have to focus on just one Paragon at a time.


what game are you playing? infinite paragon is a success because you can continue to infinitely gain levels while you farm for gear.

because of this, even if you continue to fail at finding upgrades... you still improve your heroes through paragon levels. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY PARAGON IS A SUCCESS. NOT THAT NON SENSE BS YOU ARE SAYING.

knowing this as fact, having the gem upgrading system similar to how paragon progresses would just add another " I found nothing useful today but I still made progress thanks to paragon/gem upgrades". this is why infinite gem upgrades is NEEDED to further improve this game. the current system is just a crap addition in which almost everyone will have max gems within a few weeks. so essentially the "new gem content" will become really old, really fast.


Exactly. Without being infinitely upgradeable, the gems are going to be exactly like the gems we have currently: you just drop them, max them and they're done. Pretty boring and bland. No feeling of progression.
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08/14/2014 09:12 PMPosted by Fahita
08/14/2014 09:05 PMPosted by Smeet
And this is an issue with GRift tier tuning. They scale too fast, so upgrading Paragon/Gems doesn't push you up a tier.


Yep. This is the inherent problem The GRs scale too fast compared to legendary gem scaling and PLvL progression.

This can be fixed by tweaking the gems, and making the minimum 'floor' chance of them upgrading higher. Like at bare minimum you'll have at least a 15, 20 or 25% chance to upgrade a gem as long as it's within 1 - 3 ranks of your finished GR. And make the gems scale better.

It can also be fixed by tweaking GR scaling so that they don't scale nearly as fast or as intensely as they do now... and this is probably the most reasonable fix. Instead of GR mobs gaining 30% more health and damage with each level.. they get say 8% or 10%. Something that doesn't outpace the gem leveling to such a huge extent.

They can also do a combination of both and achieve the same result.

*edit* Also, capping the experience needed to gain a PLvL at something reasonable also wouldn't be a bad idea. Like.. 3 - 5 billion. That's about an hour's worth of exping per level.


Agree on all points.

I feel like this gem upgrading system is amazing, under the condition that players can actually progress up the GR tiers through a combination of gems/paragon levels (since your ability to progress your gem is directly related to your ability to progress in GRifts, which is good, but not with current GRift tuning). We don't need to be able to get to 100, but we should be looking at something significantly higher than 40... Otherwise, why have it scale up to 100 in the first place?
Edited by Smeet#1144 on 8/14/2014 9:30 PM PDT
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People need to realize that the sole purpose of G-rifts is upgrading gems. When you soft cap your gems you aren't "gaining" anything. You don't *get* new content when you have soft capped, you have made the same piece of content less worthwhile.

Smeet seem's to think that when we soft cap our gems: "OUR TETHERS ARE BROKEN AND WE ARE FREE TO ROAM ABOUT THE COUNTRY!".

Actually the country just got smaller and less interesting.

Plenty of people are at the point in their gear where only TINY upgrades are possible. If you have ever been in a higher ranked rift you know the crazy amount of cheese required not to die instantly. Some bosses and mobs just mean you lose, no if's ands or but's about it.

For example Alkaizer, one of the most powerful Barbarian streamers while streaming a higher level rift had Zultan Kulle (Sandshaper) spawn as hs GRG. He said "Okay I lose". And he did. The amount of damage he could put out simply couldn't kill the boss.

Now while his gear is really really good, it's not unusual for many players to have something really close to what he has, Reaching the point of T5-T6 viability can be done very quickly if you have some friends.

So what then, you get to the point where your at G-rift 35 and suddenly things stop.

According to Smeet you simply get better gear! But wait...you can't. Oh well then get some paragon levels! Oh wait, those don't make a big enough difference to make you survive an additional tier of G-rift. Vary your build? But you needed to do that to even get to this point....

Fine Smeet, your in love with the gem design? That's fine lets keep it. But if we do that we need to make grift tiers go infinite instead, and make there difficulty increase raise at a minuscule rate.

Make the gems scale infinitely again or make the difficulty increase of rifts so tiny that the average player can get to G-rift 150 or so. I don't care either way.

But don't try to sell me on these gem changes as being good game design when people are just going to soft-cap them then quit because they have nothing else to do or go back to grinding t6 regular rifts.

Without gem upgrading G-rifts aren't content either.
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08/15/2014 07:00 AMPosted by jonjw19
People need to realize that the sole purpose of G-rifts is upgrading gems. When you soft cap your gems you aren't "gaining" anything. You don't *get* new content when you have soft capped, you have made the same piece of content less worthwhile.

Smeet seem's to think that when we soft cap our gems: "OUR TETHERS ARE BROKEN AND WE ARE FREE TO ROAM ABOUT THE COUNTRY!".

Actually the country just got smaller and less interesting.

Plenty of people are at the point in their gear where only TINY upgrades are possible. If you have ever been in a higher ranked rift you know the crazy amount of cheese required not to die instantly. Some bosses and mobs just mean you lose, no if's ands or but's about it.

For example Alkaizer, one of the most powerful Barbarian streamers while streaming a higher level rift had Zultan Kulle (Sandshaper) spawn as hs GRG. He said "Okay I lose". And he did. The amount of damage he could put out simply couldn't kill the boss.

Now while his gear is really really good, it's not unusual for many players to have something really close to what he has, Reaching the point of T5-T6 viability can be done very quickly if you have some friends.

So what then, you get to the point where your at G-rift 35 and suddenly things stop.

According to Smeet you simply get better gear! But wait...you can't. Oh well then get some paragon levels! Oh wait, those don't make a big enough difference to make you survive an additional tier of G-rift. Vary your build? But you needed to do that to even get to this point....

Fine Smeet, your in love with the gem design? That's fine lets keep it. But if we do that we need to make grift tiers go infinite instead, and make there difficulty increase raise at a minuscule rate.

Make the gems scale infinitely again or make the difficulty increase of rifts so tiny that the average player can get to G-rift 150 or so. I don't care either way.

But don't try to sell me on these gem changes as being good game design when people are just going to soft-cap them then quit because they have nothing else to do or go back to grinding t6 regular rifts.

Without gem upgrading G-rifts aren't content either.


Literally everything you are complaining about is linked to the Greater Rift tuning. Gems and Paragon levels alone literally can not push you higher in GRifts. This was the case even with your amazing infinitely upgrading gems, it was just a soul rending grind that no one EXCEPT internet celebs/botters would have bothered with for more than a single gem.

With how greater rifts are tuned/designed, they don't appear to be designed with current top tier characters in mind. There is no progression for them, their characters are already done after months and months of effort put into them. Sure, that sucks, but that's also why they are releasing it alongside seasons, which give you a reset on everything so that you aren't at your max possible GRift rank on day 1. Yes, I know that not everyone will play seasons, but that is the answer to the complaint of "i'm done with this character, what now?" (and you already have paragon levels, which legendary gems would have been virtually identical to in function, so you can't say that paragon levels aren't good enough, because gems wouldn't be either)

The problem with this entire patch is that GRifts are not something that can be progressed in after you are gear capped. They scale up too quickly. That's been the problem since day 1, it's why rimeheart/the furnace/exploding palm had to be changed, it's why all previous iterations of the gem upgrade system sucked worse (I waste 30m-1h of my time for a small chance to upgrade my gems, and i need hundreds of them to reliably move up a tier or two?), and it's why no one is progressing in them. Even with the infinite upgradable gems, the damage is not survivable (since zero of them are defensive in nature in a way that would keep you alive through the higher tiers), even if we could somehow burn years of our lives away upgrading our damage to slowly get there.

All Blizzard needs to do is make GRifts something that you can reasonably work toward progressing in. Everything else falls into place after that.
Edited by Smeet#1144 on 8/15/2014 8:15 AM PDT
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08/15/2014 07:00 AMPosted by jonjw19
People need to realize that the sole purpose of G-rifts is upgrading gems. When you soft cap your gems you aren't "gaining" anything. You don't *get* new content when you have soft capped, you have made the same piece of content less worthwhile.

Smeet seem's to think that when we soft cap our gems: "OUR TETHERS ARE BROKEN AND WE ARE FREE TO ROAM ABOUT THE COUNTRY!".

Actually the country just got smaller and less interesting.

Plenty of people are at the point in their gear where only TINY upgrades are possible. If you have ever been in a higher ranked rift you know the crazy amount of cheese required not to die instantly. Some bosses and mobs just mean you lose, no if's ands or but's about it.

For example Alkaizer, one of the most powerful Barbarian streamers while streaming a higher level rift had Zultan Kulle (Sandshaper) spawn as hs GRG. He said "Okay I lose". And he did. The amount of damage he could put out simply couldn't kill the boss.

Now while his gear is really really good, it's not unusual for many players to have something really close to what he has, Reaching the point of T5-T6 viability can be done very quickly if you have some friends.

So what then, you get to the point where your at G-rift 35 and suddenly things stop.

According to Smeet you simply get better gear! But wait...you can't. Oh well then get some paragon levels! Oh wait, those don't make a big enough difference to make you survive an additional tier of G-rift. Vary your build? But you needed to do that to even get to this point....

Fine Smeet, your in love with the gem design? That's fine lets keep it. But if we do that we need to make grift tiers go infinite instead, and make there difficulty increase raise at a minuscule rate.

Make the gems scale infinitely again or make the difficulty increase of rifts so tiny that the average player can get to G-rift 150 or so. I don't care either way.

But don't try to sell me on these gem changes as being good game design when people are just going to soft-cap them then quit because they have nothing else to do or go back to grinding t6 regular rifts.

Without gem upgrading G-rifts aren't content either.


Well stated!

I want to play Diablo 3 long term and not give up on it because it has become boring. The way for the developers to keep me tied to Diablo long term will be to allow me to always have viable ways to get better and conquer new challenges (higher grifts) as my character becomes tougher. Without infinite gem upgrades my character will hit a wall and then I will quit. Knowing that wall exists, makes me question if I even want to commit the time to patch 2.1. If however, I know that when I hit a wall (in terms of my progression) and that if I continue to play the game and upgrade my gems that I might progress further in the grifts, then I will have incentive to play and will not quit the game.
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I think it's very optimistic to expect another change to G-rift tuning. If that is possible then I absolutely agree with you Smeet.

On the other hand, if they are unwilling to retune, at least an infinite system would give us something to do whilst banging our heads against the wall on an unwinnably hard G rift.
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The short reason Legendary Gems are no longer infinite is because our design philosophy behind them has changed over the course of the PTR.

The long version is we wanted to change the upgrade mechanic to incentivize and reward players for reaching higher Greater Rift tiers and really pushing themselves to the limit. The current tuning wound up sacrificing the infinite scaling in favor such a system, though this could change down the line and we’ll continue to keep an eye on Legendary Gems and their upgrade values. Overall, we feel these changes make for a more engaging and interesting goal.

If you're struggling to upgrade your gems, you might need to further optimize your gear or build. Maybe the gear you have available works better with a slightly different build. Or maybe you've missed an enchant or can squeeze out a little more Toughness or DPS by upgrading some non-Legendary gems. If you've hit a wall, you've likely reached a calibration point of sorts. This is your base to build on - it's the perfect time to ask yourself "What can I tweak or change to push a little bit farther?"
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08/15/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Nevalistis
it's the perfect time to ask yourself "What can I tweak or change to push a little bit farther?"


With yours ALWAYS changing philosophy and inability to just UPGRADE or build and continue playing game in the way we love, I will probably hit log out button and find some other way to entertain, because professionals know what they are doing, children and noobs always have something new to TRY.

Take this as a constructive advice ;)

Cheers.
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The short reason Legendary Gems are no longer infinite is because our design philosophy behind them has changed over the course of the PTR.

The long version is we wanted to change the upgrade mechanic to incentivize and reward players for reaching higher Greater Rift tiers and really pushing themselves to the limit. The current tuning wound up sacrificing the infinite scaling in favor such a system, though this could change down the line and we’ll continue to keep an eye on Legendary Gems and their upgrade values. Overall, we feel these changes make for a more engaging and interesting goal.

If you're struggling to upgrade your gems, you might need to further optimize your gear or build. Maybe the gear you have available works better with a slightly different build. Or maybe you've missed an enchant or can squeeze out a little more Toughness or DPS by upgrading some non-Legendary gems. If you've hit a wall, you've likely reached a calibration point of sorts. This is your base to build on - it's the perfect time to ask yourself "What can I tweak or change to push a little bit farther?"


You mean the perfect time to ditch your interesting and fun but unnecessarily underpowered build in favour of copying whatever is currently the maxdps favourite
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08/15/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Nevalistis
The short reason Legendary Gems are no longer infinite is because our design philosophy behind them has changed over the course of the PTR.

The long version is we wanted to change the upgrade mechanic to incentivize and reward players for reaching higher Greater Rift tiers and really pushing themselves to the limit. The current tuning wound up sacrificing the infinite scaling in favor such a system, though this could change down the line and we’ll continue to keep an eye on Legendary Gems and their upgrade values. Overall, we feel these changes make for a more engaging and interesting goal.

If you're struggling to upgrade your gems, you might need to further optimize your gear or build. Maybe the gear you have available works better with a slightly different build. Or maybe you've missed an enchant or can squeeze out a little more Toughness or DPS by upgrading some non-Legendary gems. If you've hit a wall, you've likely reached a calibration point of sorts. This is your base to build on - it's the perfect time to ask yourself "What can I tweak or change to push a little bit farther?"

This is exactly why the current implementation is perfect for the game in regards to the context of how Greater Rifts were designed to function and what purpose they are meant to serve.

I'm glad someone finally commented on the subject.
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08/15/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Nevalistis
The short reason Legendary Gems are no longer infinite is because our design philosophy behind them has changed over the course of the PTR.

The long version is we wanted to change the upgrade mechanic to incentivize and reward players for reaching higher Greater Rift tiers and really pushing themselves to the limit. The current tuning wound up sacrificing the infinite scaling in favor such a system, though this could change down the line and we’ll continue to keep an eye on Legendary Gems and their upgrade values. Overall, we feel these changes make for a more engaging and interesting goal.

If you're struggling to upgrade your gems, you might need to further optimize your gear or build. Maybe the gear you have available works better with a slightly different build. Or maybe you've missed an enchant or can squeeze out a little more Toughness or DPS by upgrading some non-Legendary gems. If you've hit a wall, you've likely reached a calibration point of sorts. This is your base to build on - it's the perfect time to ask yourself "What can I tweak or change to push a little bit farther?"

TLDR

Legendary gems are now just... Gems. Something that was once considered interesting is now hardly worth sacrificing a jewelry primary for. Keep the nerfs coming, it's obviously the best thing to do.... Right?
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The path of least resistance you are creating is for us to ONLY our most geared characters now for upgrading gems. It is not efficient to use anything but our maxed out char.

We are very good at figuring out what is the best char and best build to maximize gem grift level advancement. Why are you asking us to use nothing else and further destroying build diversification so we can "squeeze out a little more toughness or dps" from our highest geared char?

Maxed geared char does grifts all others sit on sideline. Seems legit.
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08/14/2014 01:09 PMPosted by jonjw19
LET US SCALE INFINITELY, LET US BE FREE!


This is what happens then:
I would start my GR30 rift, and go AFK while the rift timed out and the Guardian spawned, at which point I'd come back, kill it, and grab my ranks.
Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum.
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That seems like a very insincere post, Nevalistis.

Higher grifts offer higher experience. XP-based l-gems would work perfectly with that to “reward players for reaching higher Greater Rift tiers”. Meanwhile, no amount of tweaking will let you reach +2/+3 grifts compared to the wall once you hit it with decent gear. Getting stuck at this point and also not being able to upgrade your gems doesn't seem like “a more engaging and interesting goal”. At all.

Add to that the heavy nerfs to the l-gems and the whole concept gets quite disappointing and a total waste of time. Along with the grifts themselves.
Edited by chase#2542 on 8/15/2014 11:22 AM PDT
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08/15/2014 11:19 AMPosted by chase
That seems like a very insincere post, Nevalistis.


No, it's not.

There are a couple of places where D3 may have missed it's mark, but legendary gems is not one of those places. They were really clunky to upgrade before, and now they're in a good spot. They grow as you grow, which is really what a lot of people want.

I think Nev described perfectly what D3 devs want with gems, and I have no problem with them.

Maybe all that's left is to tweak is greater rift scaling and trial rift scaling, but that's about it.
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