Diablo® III

Rapid Fire w/ Shadow Pwr

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#QSkdeT!YcW!aZabYb

Example: since everything in D3 is in DPS, they've already done half the math for us, we disregard attack speed, even though that's how rapid fire is worded.

6x30%=180% weapon damage/sec, with shadow power, 6x30%x1.5=270%
our additional 60% passives/marked makes it
180% x 1.6 = 288% and w/ shadow 270% x 1.6 = 432%

to check, lets add our 60% passives/marked to weapon damage THEN add rapid fire/shadow, so @160% weapon damage, 30% of that is 48%
6 x 48% = 288% and w/ shadow 6 x 48% x 1.5 = 432%

to further clarify,
A 100 DPS bow is a 100DPS bow, regardless of it's attack speed. which is why we dont multiply by attack speed.

now if we want to include attack speed in our equation, it complicates it, but we get the same numbers.
first the obvious, plug in a dps bow to verify, 100dps bow @ 1 attack per second
6 x 1.0 x 30 = 180 with shadow, 6 x 1.0 x 30 x 1.5 = 270

now if it's a bow with attack speed 2.0, @100dps the bow's base damage is 50 before modified by attack speed. 30% of 50 is 15 @ 2.0 aps
6 x 2.0 x 15 = 180 and with shadow 6 x 2.0 x 15 x 1.5 = 270
even at 3.0 attack speed, a 100 dps bow's base damage is 33.333, 30% of that is 10
6 x 3.0 x 10 = 180 and with shadow 6 x 3.0 x 10 x 1.5 = 270
adding the 60% passives/marked, we get 288% and 432%



ORIGINAL post:

bear with me on this, I hate reading long posts as well
Hopefully with the revamping of DH's skills/resource systems it will be even more viable

check out the build:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#QSkdeT!YcW!aZabYb

it all depends on my Bow's attack/second, I realize this, but regardless, the damage per hatred is huge.

for simplicity, and in imo, 2.0 attacks/sec shouldnt be too rare at higher levels, as I've seen low level bows with 1.5x attack speed in the beta.
so it all depends on how epic my windforce/eagle horn bow is :D

I started by selecing my passives, Totaling (+40%) damage, if 10 yards away and slowed

Rapid Fire with Web shot + Companion regen 4 hatred/second
- for 20 hatred each second minus 4 = 16 hatred/second
- 6 x Normal attack speed for 30% weapon damage
- (6 x 2.0 x 30%) + (40%) = 400% weapon damage per 16 hatred

400% for 16 hatred is very good on it's own (while discipline is regenerating)
but
add in Marked for Death (20%) and Shadow Power (1.5x attack, + 7 hatred/sec)
totaling +11 hatred per second is equal to 20 - 11 = 9 hatred/sec

(6 x 2.0 x 1.5 x 30%) + (40%) + (20%) = 600% weapon damage per 9 hatred!

Add Preparation w/ 55% chance no cooldown, enables spamming of shadow power against bosses and large mobs.

Also, since it's damage per second, all 600% can be split up to multiple targets as to not waste hatred.

I believe my math is correct after reading the wording of all descriptions.
Anyways, I'm definately going to use this build once lvl 60 and have lvl 7 runes!

Multishot with discipline regen is also an idea, instead of either vault or preparation, if this build is constantly discipline starved, but the whole point is to use Rapid Fire 100% of the time for the massive damage / low hatred.

Edit: If discipline starved, replace Steady Aim with Perfectionist, and only lose 10% damage
Edited by Sword on 9/21/2011 6:25 PM PDT
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Don't know if that is adding up right.
Lets say your damage is 100. And going with your 2 aps, you are doing 200 damage per second.

Rapid fire, it takes 30% of your damage, thus making it 30 damage per shot. With 2 aps x 6, you are now doing 2x6 = 12 shots per second. With the 50% more attack speed, you are doing 18 shots per second. Going back to damage, if we do 30 damage with 40% from passives and 20% from the skills (assuming this is how they are doing damage calculations), it is either 48 (1.6x30) damage per shot or 50.4 damage per shot(if it is multiplied as such: 1.4x1.2x30). So we do 48 or 50.4 damage x 18 shots = 864 damage or 907~.

Lets just say it is 907 for the time being. If we do 907/200, that is 4.5x more damage per second. This seems like a lot, but you forget this is using all of your skills basically. Other builds might be able to do this much or more dps, depending on the skills. Since yours does not give AOE, other builds might be able to do more dps in mobs, while yours is geared more for bosses (kinda).

Hope that helps :3
Edited by StaIker on 9/19/2011 4:17 PM PDT
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Don't know if that is adding up right.
Lets say your damage is 100


I never mentioned weapon damage, if you want to calculate that, take my final %'s and multiply

if my weapon damage is 100 @ 600% weapon damage = 6 x 100 = 600 damage / second
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I never mentioned weapon damage, if you want to calculate that, take my final %'s and multiply

if my weapon damage is 100 @ 600% weapon damage = 6 x 100 = 600 damage / second


I was using the damage to simplify it a bit.


- 6 x Normal attack speed for 30% weapon damage
- (6 x 2.0 x 30%) + (40%) = 400% weapon damage per 16 hatred


When I am looking at that, it is kind of hard to read through. When you do your final caculation:
09/19/2011 02:09 PMPosted by Sword
(6 x 2.0 x 1.5 x 30%) + (40%) + (20%) = 600% weapon damage

it is not quite right. It almost the same as what I am saying, but you do not add the 40% and 20%. You need to take the first part (6x2x1.5) =18 with 30%x(40%x20%) (or possibly 30%x60%, depending on how Blizzard will do it), which will get you 48% or 50.4%.
50.4%x18 = 450~%.

Edit: Lemme go back through that, that is coming out to be 900%~

Edit 2: I forgot that it is 2 aps, so it is 450% still. Basically 50.4x18 = 900%~ but since you are already shooting 2 aps, you would do 900%/2 = 450%. You would really only need to do 6x1.5 (=9) because that tells you how much faster you shooting with your bow, making the aps unneeded.
Edited by StaIker on 9/19/2011 5:09 PM PDT
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I see what you're thinking, but I think I've done it right from the wording in all skills/traits
we'll have to see how it works in game

if each shot is 30% weapon damage then,
w/ shadow your attack speed is (6x2x1.5) = 18 shots per second = 18x30% = 540% weapon damage/second, PLUS 60% from passives = 600%

let's hope!
OR

for example a 100dps bow, our normal attack speed still equals 100dps, regardless of attacks per second, so we don't multiply by our attack speed.
base skill = 6 x 30% = 180% with shadow 6 x 30% x 1.5 = 270%

now depending on how they do it, adding the passives to the percentage, or calculating the total damage and then multiplying that by the passives, you get very different numbers, I guess we'll have to wait and see how they do it

I'm guessing they calculate the damage, then multiply by passives

so with 60% in passives/marked - 270% x 1.6 = 432% for 9 hatred ain't bad
if they add the passives it's 330% :/
Edited by Sword on 9/19/2011 7:00 PM PDT
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Yeah, I am kind of hoping we can get a better clarification on how damage % stacks :3.
But, since there is apparently going to be a redux on the Demon Hunter resource system, I do not know how all of this will go into play. I am not going to be making anymore builds for the Demon Hunter until I know if skills are being changed or not.
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09/19/2011 05:30 PMPosted by StaIker
I am kind of hoping we can get a better clarification on how damage % stacks


agreed, but regardless, I will definitely be trying out hatred per second skills offset by hatred regen and buffed by attack speed per second :D
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85 Troll Druid
3535
Unfortunately runing Marked for Death with Golden instead of indigo or obsidian makes it pretty much useless for anything but boss/mini-boss fights. The target dies in a few hits and then suddenly you're looking at spending 6 disc per target which isn't viable.

I'm also not sure rapid fire and Shadow Power will stack.

Also, in Diablo 2 most damage bonuses were additive. I assume Diablo 3 is similar. At the worst I can assume that damage bonuses won't stack as we expect.
Edited by Dahippee on 9/19/2011 6:52 PM PDT
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Unfortunately runing Marked for Death with Golden instead of indigo or obsidian makes it pretty much useless for anything but boss/mini-boss fights. The target dies in a few hits and then suddenly you're looking at spending 6 disc per target which isn't viable.


but i used indigo

09/19/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Dahippee
I'm also not sure rapid fire and Shadow Power will stack


then it would be useless no?

Also, in Diablo 2 most damage bonuses were additive. I assume Diablo 3 is similar.


if that's true, I think 330% weapon damage / second might be the number, still only for 9 hatred
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as for damage - it seems to me with that set up, and you're getting all your benefits, the max dmg you can do it 30% (skill dmg) + 60%(passive/other skill bonus) = 48%; 48% * 6 shots = 288%, and that's not taking into account that for every six shots you could have just fired one normal shot, for no hatred, at 140%, so in the end you're really getting +148% dmg and the snare effect.

as for hatred - shadow power is not a throw down every time you cast rapid fire kind of thing, shouldn't really work that as a constant. What are constants are your bow speed and your bat companion. So your hatred cost is 20-4 * bow speed. Even if you had a 2/sec bow your cost would be 8 hatred. 8 hatred for 148% dmg and snare.

now take a simpler ability like impale with liquid flame and the same setup - that does 495% + 40% = 693% dmg - 140% for a regular shot and you're at + 553% dmg for 16 hatred, divide 553 by 2 and you get 276.5% dmg for the same 8 hatred.

so you can have rapid fire for 148% dmg and snare or impale for 277% straight up dmg - and if you have a faster bow rapid fire will be more efficient and if you have a power bow impale would be more efficient.

Maybe my math is wrong, too - but I would imagine its something closer to that than 600% dmg for 8 or 9 hatred.

when you're talking about balancing I'm sure they have tools for calculating ability combinations - with what... 23 abilities * 5 runes = 115 abilities, and 6 slots = 115!6 = something ridiculous like 10k+ combinations per class, plus the passive combinations, plus their item database, etc. - I'm sure they are able to throw everything together and spit out reports that flag certain combinations that produce obscene values, especially for something as rudimentary as single target base damage value, never mind utility type value for things like stuns, snares, mobility, aoe, etc that are much more difficult to quantify in a real time setting - for which the real time factor isn't currently being factored at all - you can take a one second instant and drill down to the fraction of a percent of damage but in the grand scheme of an encounter timeline those ideal percentages diminish quite quickly and it becomes more of what you're capable of as a player and not so much the nitty gritty percents.

Regardless - All in all - its a nice build, good range of utlity, dmg, regen - but I wouldn't put too much thought into the most perfect dmg/hatred effecient build since in the end its the utility type things and what works best for you as a player (fun/functionally) that are going to make the difference between living and dying.
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86 Worgen Hunter
11500
One major thing to keep in mind when comparing Impale and Rapid Fire is that Impale costs 20 Hatred every shot while Rapid Fire is 20 Hatred per second that you channel it.
With an attack speed of 2/s Impale costs 40 Hatred per sec while Rapid Fire still only costs 20 Hatred per sec. With Shadow Power up and hitting 3/s attack speed, Impale will start costing 60 hatred per sec which will leave you dry very quickly while Rapid fire is still only 20 Hatred per sec. This is the main reason that Rapid fire benefits from attack speed more then other abilities. Also, Rapid Fire can be used as an aoe ability. You arnt locked into firing at one target. You can channel it and sweep it across a pack of mobs dealing damage to several at once making it very powerful at mopping up weaker enemies. To make Rapid Fire powerful against tougher single enemies, all you need to do is put a gold rune in Marked For Death and you will regen more hatred than it costs to channel Rapid Fire with a rune level 4 or above.

Now to get into the math.

To keep it simple I'll be assuming your weapon does 100 dmg per hit with an attack speed of 2/s, no runes, and 60% dmg increase.
Default Attack: 100% weapon dmg per hit, 2/s attack speed, no cost.
That is 100*1.6 = 160 dmg per hit. 160 * 2/s = 320 dps at no cost.

Rapid Fire: 30% weapon dmg per hit, 6x attack speed, 20 Hatred per sec.
So thats (100 * 0.3)1.6 = 48 dmg per hit. 6 * 2/s = 12 attacks per sec. 48 * 12/s = 576 dps at a cost of 20 Hatred per sec.

Thats an increase of 256dps for 20 Hatred per sec. Subtracting the 4 Hatred per sec of the companion thats only 16 Hatred per sec.

Impale: 220% weapon dmg, 2/s attack speed, 20 Hatred per cast.
That is (100 * 2.2)1.6 = 352 dmg per hit. 352 * 2/s = 704 dps at a cost of 40 Hatred per sec.

That is an increase of 344 dps at a cost of 40 Hatred per sec over the default attack. Subtract the companion bonus and its 36 Hatred per sec.

Runes do deffinatly throw out these numbers, for both Rapid Fire and Impale and both add a lot on conditionals to the math. I'm not going to get into it here though since it'll take too long. A couple things to consider: Adding Shadow Power will increase the dps of Rapid fire without increasing its cost while both the dps and cost per sec of Impale will increase. We still don't know how the dot from Impale's Obsidian rune will stack, if at all. If it doesn't stack at all, then it is a worthless rune for extremely fast weapon builds as it will never really get much chance to tick, at least compared to the normal damage it does. Impale's Obsidian rune's dot is best when alowed to tick for its 2s duration, which means hitting multiple targets and not focusing on one and/or a much slower weapon.
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We need clarification on the wording of the skills and how they stack
Edited by Sword on 9/21/2011 6:28 PM PDT
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Rapid Fire is a skill talor made for fast weapons like dual wield XBow. It is very hatred efficient when the weapon speed is faster than 1 atk/sec. However if you have a slow weapon you should choose hatred/cast skills like Impale.
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09/20/2011 09:59 AMPosted by iwbs
Rapid Fire is a skill talor made for fast weapons like dual wield XBow. It is very hatred efficient when the weapon speed is faster than 1 atk/sec. However if you have a slow weapon you should choose hatred/cast skills like Impale.


A 100 DPS bow is a 100DPS bow, regardless of it's attack speed. which is why we dont multiply by attack speed.

I dont believe attack speed comes into the equation at all, and I have a feeling large Bows will have higher DPS, than xbows.
Edited by Sword on 9/20/2011 10:13 AM PDT
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Attack speed doesn't need to be in the equation as Sword says. Critical strikes should not affect it either (as I just tried to see if it would xD). One advantage to a higher APS is because it is pretty smexy. :3

But it seems we came to the same conclusion when it came to our math~ I used the 50.4% instead of the 48% just to make sure it could be at the highest it could be :3.
Edited by StaIker on 9/20/2011 12:21 PM PDT
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86 Worgen Hunter
11500
Attack speed is a factor if (and only if) cast speed is dependant on it, which reports from the beta say they are.

For example, two weapons both with 100 dps:
#1) 100dmg, 1 attack per sec
#2) 50dmg, 2 attacks per sec
Both #1 and #2 are 100 dps weapons. Casting as many Impales as you can per sec will do the same dps. However, weapon #2 will make you cast two Impales to get equal dps and will actually cost you 40 Hatred for those 2 casts while weapon #1 only casts once and only costs 20 Hatred.

The very basis of the skill Rapid Fire is that it increases your attack speed by 6 times what it was. This alone makes attack speed a factor for the skill. Yes, 1/s attack speed is 180% weapon dmg, but 2/s is 360% weapon dmg, and 3/s is 540% weapon dmg. Granted if your dps is the same on all 3 weapons (not saying there will be a weapon with 3/s, just for math's sake) you will do the same dmg overall. However you have to also consider anything else that can proc off those attacks. Rapid Fire greatly benefits any + dmg that is not % based or anything that can proc off hits with no cooldown. This is where the ability shines and again, makes attack speed matter. Don't think I have to get into the math for everyone to agree that flat +dmg increases are better for high attack speeds, and +dmg% is better for slow, powerful weapons.

Edit: Just realized you arn't the one comparing it to Impale. Yes, for overall dmg, with no other procs of any sort, attack speed is irrelevant for Rapid Fire. Two weapons with the same dps will do the same overall dmg with any +% dmg bonuses. However, once you add flat +dmg bonuses attack speed does indeed matter.
Edited by Icid on 9/20/2011 3:38 PM PDT
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I still think you're still disillusioning yourself thinking that shadow power somehow doesn't have a disc cost which from what I've gathered is far more valuable resource than hatred - so if you're basing your efficiency on that you should at least say xDmg for yHate and zDisc, and for 10 seconds only.

The bottom line is that its a rapid fire is 30%x6 attack = 180% weapon damage - shooting faster is relative since if you're shooting faster with rapid fire you could also be shooting faster using other abilities as well - going back to the timeline thing - you can take rapid fire and distill it down to a single instance but in a game that lasts for hours and combat starts and stops randomly its not really relevant.

for example - sticking with the impale example and 2aps, in one seconds you could cast one impale and one evasive fire = 220% + 135% = 355%. in the same one second you can cast rapid fire shooting 2 times @ 180% = 360%.

One setup costs 20 hatred/360% dmg for rapid fire and the other costs 25 hatred/355% dmg for impale and evasive fire - marginally different and that's assuming a really fast bow.

You take the same arrangement and put in a 1aps bow (because that happens to be what you have in the game and not some fictitious bow you're assuming you have) and you get 20hatred/180% dmg for rapid and 20hatred/220% dmg for impale.

The point is that there are way more inputs into the equation that are going to effect your dps/hatred efficiency than looking at it from a purely skill combination standpoint. So again I'm not saying rapid fire is bad or anything - just saying that even still the apparently "solved" 432% dmg for 9 hatred comes by a lot of situational assumptions and is misleading and that you could apply any skill combination and assumptions to get a more desirable result - doesn't mean the result you get is valid for more than anything than that very finite situation.

but yes i guess if variables, a, b, c, d, e, f, and g are in place then theoretically yes you can get 432% base weapon dps for 9 hatred for that single moment in time when all planets align - I however would just trust blizzard is doing their job as a designers and go with what abilities fit your play style or... /gasp... are more fun to use ;-)
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09/20/2011 03:46 PMPosted by Maximus
I still think you're still disillusioning yourself thinking that shadow power somehow doesn't have a disc cost


um, yeah it's 20

in the same one second you can cast rapid fire shooting 2 times @ 180% = 360%.


I wish this is true, we'll have to wait and see. But I don't believe you multiply by attack speed even though that's how the skill is worded.

09/20/2011 03:46 PMPosted by Maximus
but yes i guess if variables, a, b, c, d, e, f, and g are in place then theoretically yes you can get 432% base weapon dps for 9 hatred


there was 1 variable, and it was the attack speed of the bow. which again we don't know exactly how the skill works.

thanks for the positive criticism and enjoy your impale / evasive fire strategy...
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Sorry if I offended you, I was just noting that you're still at a very high level of speculation having several dependencies to justify your outcome and was trying to give some context to the equation relative to other abilities - not to criticize or promote one ability, or combination of abilities, over another.
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09/20/2011 10:11 AMPosted by Sword
Rapid Fire is a skill talor made for fast weapons like dual wield XBow. It is very hatred efficient when the weapon speed is faster than 1 atk/sec. However if you have a slow weapon you should choose hatred/cast skills like Impale.


A 100 DPS bow is a 100DPS bow, regardless of it's attack speed. which is why we dont multiply by attack speed.

I dont believe attack speed comes into the equation at all, and I have a feeling large Bows will have higher DPS, than xbows.


I am not saying a weapon with high attack speed does more dps compare to slower weapon with same dps, i am talking about the hatred efficiency only. It is obvious because rapid fire has a fixed hatred cost whereas impale is variable with attack speed.

If you are talking about the raw damage, weapons with same dps will scale the same for different skills regardless of the attack speed. Actually Impale will do more damage than Rapid Fire in all possible situations. Look at Impale with Crimson rune, it comes with 100% piecing and 242% ED. Rapid Fire with Indigo only manage 70% piecing and 180% ED. However it is unrealistic to use Impale with fast weapons since you will oom after few secs, and it is where you will want to use Rapid Fire.

Why Rapid Fire is bad when you have a slow weapon? A weapon with 0.5 atk/sec will only result in 180% ED for 40 hatred cost with rapid fire. With Impale you will get 220% ED for 20 only.
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