Diablo® III

Attacks per second and slow speed items

Posts: 129
After seeing how it looks like they're sticking with "attacks per second" instead of a straight attack speed attribute, I'm wondering how this will affect weapon choice. Specifically, won't everyone just want to use nothing but the slowest, highest damage weapons? Since most abilities are based off of weapon damage, using a slow weapon already has one benefit. And since "attacks per second" is more useful to weapons with a lower initial "attacks per second" rate, that's another reason to avoid any sort of low damage, high attacks per second item.

I think it would make more sense for abilities to be based off of weapon dps, and to reintroduce attack speed as well. You can have both "attacks per second" and "attack speed" attributes in the game. It might be harder for a person to do theorycrafting themselves, but the game should be able to calculate the dps and display it easily. And as for basing abilities off of weapon dps, that would involve changing all of the calculations for the skills, but I think it would make for more options in the game.

If they don't change anything, I'm sure it will be quite a common occurrence that someone finds a higher level low damage fast attacking weapon, and they can't use it because of how the attributes and abilities work.
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Posts: 1,187
Uh, FYI: Most skills scale with weapon speed as well. So yes, if you get a bigger, slower weapon, you do more damage with each cast of your skill...but if you have a faster weapon, your skill fires off faster and you can use it more often.

So no, there is still a place for fast weapons.
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Posts: 687
Yeah I think the "attacks per second" terminology is retarded, and is way more confusing that % faster..... % faster you know right of how much faster it will be.... "attacks per second" you have to break out your calculator.
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Posts: 1,187
09/22/2011 08:23 PMPosted by Xeridea
Yeah I think the "attacks per second" terminology is retarded, and is way more confusing that % faster..... % faster you know right of how much faster it will be.... "attacks per second" you have to break out your calculator.


What? Attacks per second makes a lot more sense to me. You know a lot more about how fast you'll be attacking by doing some simple addition.

How fast is your attack if in D2, you have a 'fast' attack speed weapon, and items with 9, 15, and 7% faster attack speed? You don't know without a game guide and a calculator and detailed knowledge of breakpoints.

How fast is attack speed in D3, if you have a 1.4 APS sword, and +0.1, +0.3, and +.25 APS? You attack 2.05 times per second. Much easier to calculate.

You have it backwards, Xeridia.
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Posts: 129
09/22/2011 08:26 PMPosted by Nekora
Yeah I think the "attacks per second" terminology is retarded, and is way more confusing that % faster..... % faster you know right of how much faster it will be.... "attacks per second" you have to break out your calculator.


What? Attacks per second makes a lot more sense to me. You know a lot more about how fast you'll be attacking by doing some simple addition.

How fast is your attack if in D2, you have a 'fast' attack speed weapon, and items with 9, 15, and 7% faster attack speed? You don't know without a game guide and a calculator and detailed knowledge of breakpoints.

How fast is attack speed in D3, if you have a 1.4 APS sword, and +0.1, +0.3, and +.25 APS? You attack 2.05 times per second. Much easier to calculate.

You have it backwards, Xeridia.


You're right about the whole "normal," "fast," "faster," system being unclear. I assume they could just use a normal description of "1 attack every x seconds" instead of that old D2 description.

As for just having an attack speed attribute, I think that would be pretty clear as well as the attacks per second attribute. If you have a weapon that says "10% faster attack speed," you know you're simply attacking 10% faster, thus doing (roughly, without accounting for armor or possible procs) 10% more damage per second. Like I said in my initial post, having someone try to figure this out for themselves might be a bit more tricky, but you can always just equip the items to see how fast you're attacking.

I think attacks per second is ok, but I wouldn't mind seeing a traditional "attack speed" attribute on items as well.
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Posts: 129
Uh, FYI: Most skills scale with weapon speed as well. So yes, if you get a bigger, slower weapon, you do more damage with each cast of your skill...but if you have a faster weapon, your skill fires off faster and you can use it more often.

So no, there is still a place for fast weapons.


Thanks, Nekora, I didn't know that. Does that mean for your average Barbarian ability, such as "Bash," that the attack rate of the ability actually relates to the rate on the weapon you have equipped? So if you equipped a low damage, high APS weapon, does that mean it's not just your regular attack that would be quicker, but you would be able to cast "Bash" quicker and more often than someone who has a slow, high damage weapon equipped?
Edited by GusTreta on 9/22/2011 8:34 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,187


Thanks, Nekora, I didn't know that. Does that mean, for your average Barbarian ability, such as "Bash," that the attack rate of the ability actually relates to the same rate as the weapon you have equipped? So if you equipped a low damage, high APS weapon, does that mean it's not just your regular attack that would be quicker, but you would be able to cast "Bash" quicker and more often than someone who has a slow, high damage weapon equipped?


That is entirely correct. I've seen people in the beta switch weapons and the difference in rage/spirit generation is rather impressive, because they are using those generator skills much more often.

The 2-handed weapons do more damage, to make up for this, it seems.


As for just having an attack speed attribute, I think that would be pretty clear as well as the attacks per second attribute. If you have a weapon that says "10% faster attack speed," you know you're simply attacking 10% faster, thus doing (roughly, without accounting for armor or possible procs) 10% more damage per second. Like I said in my initial post, having someone try to figure this out for themselves might be a bit more tricky, but you can always just equip the items to see how fast you're attacking.

I think attacks per second is ok, but I wouldn't mind seeing a traditional "attack speed" attribute on items as well.


I still like attacks per second a lot better. Yes, you can see that "10% faster attack speed" is 10% faster easier...but it's harder to figure out the total, which is what really matters. It also normalizes bonuses a little bit more; 10% increased attack speed is a much better bonus for a weapon that is already fast than it is for a slow weapon.
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Posts: 687
09/22/2011 08:26 PMPosted by Nekora
Yeah I think the "attacks per second" terminology is retarded, and is way more confusing that % faster..... % faster you know right of how much faster it will be.... "attacks per second" you have to break out your calculator.


What? Attacks per second makes a lot more sense to me. You know a lot more about how fast you'll be attacking by doing some simple addition.

How fast is your attack if in D2, you have a 'fast' attack speed weapon, and items with 9, 15, and 7% faster attack speed? You don't know without a game guide and a calculator and detailed knowledge of breakpoints.

How fast is attack speed in D3, if you have a 1.4 APS sword, and +0.1, +0.3, and +.25 APS? You attack 2.05 times per second. Much easier to calculate.

You have it backwards, Xeridia.


I like how it is done in Titan Quest. 100% attack speed is 1/second. Items have varying attack speeds, but it tells you on your char/inventory screen your attack speed, which includes item/skill modifiers. Attacks per second is counter-intuitive, and also varying results. So if a ring gives you +0.2 attacks per second, if you use a 1/sec item, vs a 0.63/sec, the slow item gets greater benefit, and to figure out what % faster you are attacking, you need to do some math.

Other things are annoying to... why are resources regenerated per minute, but life regenerated per second? Per minute sounds really lame and is harder to figure out what you need to. So if skills use x resource, (not barb/monk since they work differently), how much more does x resource/minute help me if my skill uses 10 resource/sec? Well lemme divide x/min by 60. I am a math wiz, and this is going to be really annoying to do. I would pay 10 bucks to have an option to change it.

The WD/Wiz damage based on weapon damage is another weird thing. First of it makes 0 sense, Wizard does more damage holding a non magic sword than a wand. Second off, it is way harder to figure out how much damage you are actually doing.
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Posts: 29
but faster attack speed for skills also means you depleate your resources faster. in the case of the barb although you will gain faster because you also get fury from being attacked and from cool down skills the overall fury to damge ratio will be lower.

i think they should just fix it bye having it based off the weapon DPS instead of that of a single attack. that way it would work equally well with two weapons with a dps of 300, even if one had one attack per second and the other had 3
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Posts: 1,187
but faster attack speed for skills also means you depleate your resources faster. in the case of the barb although you will gain faster because you also get fury from being attacked and from cool down skills the overall fury to damge ratio will be lower.

i think they should just fix it bye having it based off the weapon DPS instead of that of a single attack. that way it would work equally well with two weapons with a dps of 300, even if one had one attack per second and the other had 3


...Why?

Why not have this be just part of the balance? It seems more interesting to me. Yes, the fury/damage ratio will be lower with a fast weapon, oftentimes. So you gain and burn through fury faster. And that's part of having a slower weapon.

It can be balanced without being normalized so that everyone uses the skill with the same speed and basing it on DPS.
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Blizzard Employee
Posts: 2,894
Uh, FYI: Most skills scale with weapon speed as well. So yes, if you get a bigger, slower weapon, you do more damage with each cast of your skill...but if you have a faster weapon, your skill fires off faster and you can use it more often.

So no, there is still a place for fast weapons.

This is correct. The way the systems are currently set up, whether a player dual wields or uses a two-handed weapon mostly comes down to item quality and personal preference. The number crunchers among you will surely find the most effective choice for a given situation, but the difference is still pretty slim when the item quality/attributes are comparable.
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85 Worgen Priest
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Posts: 68
But if you look, the weapons with the most damage have the highest DPS too - Are those all the weapons in the game? or is that just a glimpse at some of them? I think it's a little weird that the best two handed bo-staff is half the DPS/dmg of any 2hander the barb can use.
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Posts: 349
This is correct. The way the systems are currently set up, whether a player dual wields or uses a two-handed weapon mostly comes down to item quality and personal preference. The number crunchers among you will surely find the most effective choice for a given situation, but the difference is still pretty slim when the item quality/attributes are comparable.

Speaking of Dual Wielding, do skill percentages combine the damage from both weapons, or just use the one in main-hand?
Edited by Vanguard on 9/22/2011 9:05 PM PDT
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Posts: 117
Thanks for the info!
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Posts: 351
This is correct. The way the systems are currently set up, whether a player dual wields or uses a two-handed weapon mostly comes down to item quality and personal preference.


So awesome. Becoming a human calculator while you play just to determine what to wield is lame. Glad we won't have to do that.
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Blizzard Employee
Posts: 2,894
09/22/2011 09:05 PMPosted by Vanguard
This is correct. The way the systems are currently set up, whether a player dual wields or uses a two-handed weapon mostly comes down to item quality and personal preference. The number crunchers among you will surely find the most effective choice for a given situation, but the difference is still pretty slim when the item quality/attributes are comparable.

Speaking of Dual Wielding, do skill percentages combine the damage from both weapons, or just use the one in main-hand?

If I understand the question correctly, the damage of a skill modified by weapon damage is based on whatever weapon you happen to be swinging with when using the skill.
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Posts: 1,187

If I understand the question correctly, the damage of a skill modified by weapon damage is based on whatever weapon you happen to be swinging with when using the skill.


What about something like Hammer of the Ancients, which doesn't seem to use either of the weapons? Does it add up both?

Or maybe Whirlwind, which says it attacks once every 0.4 seconds? Does it attack with each weapon that often, or just one of them?
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Posts: 1,274
09/22/2011 09:08 PMPosted by Zarhym

Speaking of Dual Wielding, do skill percentages combine the damage from both weapons, or just use the one in main-hand?

If I understand the question correctly, the damage of a skill modified by weapon damage is based on whatever weapon you happen to be swinging with when using the skill.

And characters dual wielding alternate between weapons for each attack, correct?
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Posts: 349


Speaking of Dual Wielding, do skill percentages combine the damage from both weapons, or just use the one in main-hand?

If I understand the question correctly, the damage of a skill modified by weapon damage is based on whatever weapon you happen to be swinging with when using the skill.

Thanks for the info! Makes sense. Nekora's question on Hammer of the Ancients raises a good question too.

Also, how does attack speed interact with dual wielding? Say I'm using two swords that attack once every second. Will I hit every half-second, or still once per second (alternating swords)? And how does this situation work out when using weapons of differing attack speeds?
Edited by Vanguard on 9/22/2011 9:22 PM PDT
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