Diablo® III

Hatred changes

Community Manager
09/23/2011 05:44 PMPosted by iLOVEBEER
Question Bash, are the skills gonna be fixed on the website soon? Cause right now it says we start off with impale with no hatred generator abilities. Also the strafe ability is listed under hatred generator but it says it costs 2 hatred per second?


A lot of info is going to be and remain all kinds of jacked up. We're making constant changes to skills and items. Since the website literally pulls from the game data, we don't want it to be a metagame of watching live updates as we design and balance the game. We'll probably only update website data at key points before launch.
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I feel like Strafe would be awfully redundant if it was next to Rapid Fire and Multishot as a spender. I think it makes sense to spread out one effect like that to Hatred Generator.

I mean, before this change I only picked Strafe over Rapid Fire for flavor's sake. I would've picked a skill that actually works better in AOE situations for AOE (Strafe basically performs the same against a single target as it does against a group, if I understand it correctly, so against large groups its damage gets fairly spread out and it doesn't do much to each individual target.), and then I kind of arbitrarily chose between Strafe and Rapid Fire for single target situations. Now, strafe is a good general-purpose Hatred generator.

Also, while the cost of Strafe on the calculator may be a bug, costing 2 hatred/second while channeling it doesn't mean it isn't a hatred generator- even at half the beta's current regeneration rate, you'll still way more than break even with the hatred cost of Strafe while channeling it, so you'll be regenerating hatred while using the ability.

I also somewhat disagree with Spike Trap being discipline with how Spike Trap currently works. Discipline seems to be mostly be about defensive abilities with a few exceptions. Neither spike trap's default functionality nor any of its runes do anything but damage, and if it were moved to Discipline I feel like it'd be stepping on Crimson caltrops' toes. I agree that the idea of preparing traps ahead of time is part of Discipline's kit, though.
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09/23/2011 09:08 PMPosted by Marine


Yes, but the rate at which it regenerates is about half of what it was previously. By using a skill that generates Hatred you can get it back faster, though.

About a year ago we began to realize that the way we were making people depend on their resource for some classes just wasn't very fun, and so we began to roll out a new skill cost philosophy. Essentially the overall idea is that at any given time (within reason) you should have some option to use a skill and be able to do something, even if you're out of resource. What that means is we can't just have skills that depend on resources to use, but there needs to be a mix of skills that do cost resources, potentially resource generator skills, and some free-to-cast skills (maybe with a cooldown).

The witch doctor has had mana recovery skills since forever, the monk has almost always had spirit generators, so it was really just a matter of rolling that philosophy out to the other classes, and demon hunter was the most recent (and visible now that beta is live and we're exposing all that data).

Bonus! It makes demon hunter build diversity explode like woah.


Hey Bashiok,

From my point of view, this change might actually limit demon hunter build diversity, since now, DHs are pretty much forced to run with a fury generation and fury spender if we want to do decent damage whereas before, we could mix and match more easily.

What do you think?

Also, will there be any plans to increase the discipline regeneration rate?

Thanks for all your helpful responses thus far!
It depends on how you look at it. Before, unless you wanted to get hatred starved and autoattack, you had to throw in one of the even more limited options for Hatred generation.
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09/23/2011 09:24 PMPosted by Wind
It depends on how you look at it. Before, unless you wanted to get hatred starved and autoattack, you had to throw in one of the even more limited options for Hatred generation.

Yeah, I think a fair number of people (myself included) looked at the Fundamentals passive -- and perhaps even the Bat companion (golden rune) -- as necessary for their respective builds. Now, with a more "active" way to regenerate hatred those may not seem as necessary to people, thereby allowing more freedom in skill choice.
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I don't like the change. 4/5 classes work this way now, with resource generators and resource consumers. It's really lame.

What I personally think they should have done was just make Hatred abilities consume Discipline, but at a 20-40% extra cost. That would certainly work for lower levels, and at higher levels when there are more discipline abilities to choose from that will actually be used, it will make for VERY interesting class mechanics.
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90 Draenei Shaman
6040
Never had a blue post on one of my threads, I feel kinda honored :). Now, I just need a beta invite to actually test out the demon hunter.
Edited by Avvara on 9/24/2011 4:33 AM PDT
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09/23/2011 06:59 PMPosted by Sorreal
I agree... Strafe being a generator seems weird too when multi shot and rapid fire are spenders... spike trap should be discipline, elemental arrow should be a generator and strafe should be a spender...


Strafe is more or less going to act as a replacement for your default attack. Judging by the tool tip now, it's going to be basically free to cast and allow you to move while firing.
Edited by HRP on 9/24/2011 10:38 AM PDT
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09/23/2011 04:03 PMPosted by Bashiok
Does Hatred still regenerate passively?


Yes, but the rate at which it regenerates is about half of what it was previously. By using a skill that generates Hatred you can get it back faster, though.

About a year ago we began to realize that the way we were making people depend on their resource for some classes just wasn't very fun, and so we began to roll out a new skill cost philosophy. Essentially the overall idea is that at any given time (within reason) you should have some option to use a skill and be able to do something, even if you're out of resource. What that means is we can't just have skills that depend on resources to use, but there needs to be a mix of skills that do cost resources, potentially resource generator skills, and some free-to-cast skills (maybe with a cooldown).

The witch doctor has had mana recovery skills since forever, the monk has almost always had spirit generators, so it was really just a matter of rolling that philosophy out to the other classes, and demon hunter was the most recent (and visible now that beta is live and we're exposing all that data).

Bonus! It makes demon hunter build diversity explode like test
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90 Draenei Shaman
6040
09/23/2011 05:44 PMPosted by iLOVEBEER
Question Bash, are the skills gonna be fixed on the website soon? Cause right now it says we start off with impale with no hatred generator abilities. Also the strafe ability is listed under hatred generator but it says it costs 2 hatred per second?


It cost 2 hatred per second, but in the generator tab, I assume it's a typo or there trying things out in testing. Maybe casting spells while moving? But, that's me theorycrafting.

Also if you read the earlier blue post, your hatred regens but at a slower rate then it is before the change (about half). So that's why we get a hatred spender first.
Edited by Avvara on 9/24/2011 1:34 PM PDT
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09/24/2011 01:32 PMPosted by Avvara
Question Bash, are the skills gonna be fixed on the website soon? Cause right now it says we start off with impale with no hatred generator abilities. Also the strafe ability is listed under hatred generator but it says it costs 2 hatred per second?


It cost 2 hatred per second, but in the generator tab, I assume it's a typo or there trying things out in testing. Maybe casting spells while moving? But, that's me theorycrafting.

Also if you read the earlier blue post, your hatred regens but at a slower rate then it is before the change (about half). So that's why we get a hatred spender first.


Most likely Hatred regeneration is around 4-5 per second. With the 2 hatred per second cost, you would still be gaining hatred each second.
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mages still have the best resource pool in the game, along with better attacks. wizards can meteor (900%+ weapon damage) for 60% of their resource pool, and gain it back in a couple spellcasts. DHs can spend 40% of their resource pool using a decent 150% weapon small-aoe attack.

The problem is DH bow attacks, even the hatred-spenders, are the sort of attacks that only work if spammed. Multishot isn't any sort of 'special attack'. It's simply an arrow cleave. Yet it costs an inordinate amount.

The idea of 'building up hatred' so i can use simple arrow attacks like multishot and such seems a little strange, compared to the neat special attacks other classes get (wizards, barbs, and monks)
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I'm going to paste what I was about to post in a new topic here in hatred changes.

Do you guys think the spike trap may be a valuable skill? I was looking at one rune especially. Per chance, the three spike traps in one cast will generate 30 hatred with one use!

I would like spike traps to have a bigger range something like 12 yards versus 8 yards. The three traps rune would increase the range, but I think I will have no control about where the two other traps end up after casting.

I also assume that spike traps can be armed from a distance (12 - 30 yards) and not directly under the demon hunter's feet.
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it casts the trap in a cluster. so it'll be 3 traps near each other.
and yeah traps can be planted from a distance (unlike caltrops)
Edited by CondaMagoo on 9/24/2011 4:39 PM PDT
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It is so hard to sit here and know what is best for certain situations. However it does look like the DH hatred spenders are too high. I mean 40 hatred for 1 shot? so I can basically do 2 shots back to back and not much else. The other problem is the AoE dmg seems to be lower than most classes. Bash has said that they are constantly changing skills and what not so maybe things will turn around. Just my two cents.
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Yes, but the rate at which it regenerates is about half of what it was previously. By using a skill that generates Hatred you can get it back faster, though.

About a year ago we began to realize that the way we were making people depend on their resource for some classes just wasn't very fun, and so we began to roll out a new skill cost philosophy. Essentially the overall idea is that at any given time (within reason) you should have some option to use a skill and be able to do something, even if you're out of resource. What that means is we can't just have skills that depend on resources to use, but there needs to be a mix of skills that do cost resources, potentially resource generator skills, and some free-to-cast skills (maybe with a cooldown).

The witch doctor has had mana recovery skills since forever, the monk has almost always had spirit generators, so it was really just a matter of rolling that philosophy out to the other classes, and demon hunter was the most recent (and visible now that beta is live and we're exposing all that data).

Bonus! It makes demon hunter build diversity explode like woah



you know you people at blizzard are freakin geniuses
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I dont know if anyone has seen this yet on the skill calculator, but Strafe is listed as a hatred generator, and when you highlight the skill, says that it costs like, 2 hatred per second or something like that.
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90 Draenei Shaman
6040
09/25/2011 02:50 PMPosted by Shahamut
I dont know if anyone has seen this yet on the skill calculator, but Strafe is listed as a hatred generator, and when you highlight the skill, says that it costs like, 2 hatred per second or something like that.


Yeah, we were discussing it in a previous post. Saying that your passive hatred regen will go down by 2, making you fire faster and while moving. Yet we don't know if you can use other skills while under the effects of Strafe. If like that, you could actually keep your hatred up while moving, which would be pretty awesome. No one really knows the answer since you can't test Strafe out in the beta.
Edited by Avvara on 9/25/2011 5:04 PM PDT
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