Diablo® III

Swapping skills in town

Serious - what's the point of having the Cauldron and Cube? If going back to town makes things more challenging, and since it looks like we'll be going there quite a bit now, why not just get rid of them? I'll be going there often enough, might as well just make me sell all my stuff there too!
Edited by Tramik on 9/29/2011 12:03 AM PDT
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basically, the point of having a 120s cooldown on an ability is to offer adequate cost for having such a tremendous burst of power/dps/protection/etc. by putting that ability in your template, you're accepting the loss of a slot for that quick burst of situational power.

the ability to swap out 120s CD abilities eliminates that "cost", which would indeed trivialize content. whatever the solution is to this problem, it has to sufficiently deter people from swapping out 120s skills, amongst other concerns.
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i'd rather them implement new items and fun uniques on ladder resets than that.

but that's besides the point. this isn't about (essentially) a capped amount of respec, since blizzard doesn't seem to want to go that way. this is about brainstorming solutions to the issue existing with the current system.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9825
Allow the way-point system for swapping skills. You finally fight yourself to a way-point, find that your current skill set up is not ideal with what you're fighting, hitting the way-point allows you to switch out skills until you move off it.

It would work, and wouldn't need to portal hop(teleporting to town, switch then back in).

Then it comes down to choice. Do you go back to the previous way-point, teleport to town, or keep going towards the next waypoint?
Edited by Maliken on 9/29/2011 12:59 AM PDT
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09/28/2011 07:51 PMPosted by Bottle
Essentially, what town-only swapping does is prevent someone from being able to have more than 6 active skills in the heat of battle, just because he got really good at on the fly swapping. Nobody will really have the patience to keep on going to town and coming back, just because they want to use more than 6 skills in a certain dungeon. If they do that, then they're not really having fun.


This problem can be solved in a few ways without forcing us to go to town. For example, when you switch a skill slot, you go into a "meditative state" for fifteen seconds, meaning your Defense and Resistances drop to 0, and you can't use any skills. You'd be freaking crazy to switch your skills during combat.
Edited by sparrow on 9/29/2011 2:31 AM PDT
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Personally, I would like to see it so that unruned skills can be swapped out more freely (but not while on CD), and runed skills can only be swapped out by un-runing them in town. We don't really know how the rune system will work, or how it could work to discourage swapping, but it seems like a fairly good solution to also give the character some "permanence".


So, let's say I have a stack of 10 unattuned runes and I just got a new skill. I want to try that skill out. I'd have to go to town, socket a rune, go into the dungeon, test it out, go to town, socket another rune, return to the dungeon, etc.

This is why I think a casting time would be better.

that's not a bad suggestion at all

only caveat is i'd link it to my proposed system, so it doesn't punish or slow down newbies. peeps in normal could still swap out regularly, and later difficulties can have the vulnerability/channel-timer thing you suggest to prevent exploiting/temploiting.


This.
Edited by sparrow on 9/29/2011 2:32 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
9825
09/29/2011 02:30 AMPosted by sparrow
Personally, I would like to see it so that unruned skills can be swapped out more freely (but not while on CD), and runed skills can only be swapped out by un-runing them in town. We don't really know how the rune system will work, or how it could work to discourage swapping, but it seems like a fairly good solution to also give the character some "permanence".


So, let's say I have a stack of 10 unattuned runes and I just got a new skill. I want to try that skill out. I'd have to go to town, socket a rune, go into the dungeon, test it out, go to town, socket another rune, return to the dungeon, etc.

This is why I think a casting time would be better.


What if you used my idea above? Perhaps, free swapping in normal. Higher difficulties swapping via way-points/town. Whenever you get to a way-point, as long as you're on it you can freely swap. This at-least gives some way to swap out in the field.
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09/29/2011 12:02 AMPosted by Tramik
Serious - what's the point of having the Cauldron and Cube? If going back to town makes things more challenging, and since it looks like we'll be going there quite a bit now, why not just get rid of them? I'll be going there often enough, might as well just make me sell all my stuff there too!


Agreed. If I am going to be going back to town for respeccs, they should probably get rid of the Cauldron and Cube.
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09/29/2011 12:43 AMPosted by Noxifer
So what you can do is instead of having 6 runned abilities, you can have 5 runned and you can rotate multiple cooldowns on the same sixth slot, even without runes.


Don't allow a skill to be switched out until the cooldown is done. This prevents cooldown rotation strategies.
Edited by sparrow on 9/29/2011 2:39 AM PDT
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09/29/2011 12:47 AMPosted by Noxifer
The other pretty simple solution would be that in order to switch skills, the character must perform a small ritual in the form of a cast time, anything between 15-20 seconds is sufficient to make switching in combat and abusing cooldowns counter productive to impossible.


15-20 second cast time + 15-20 seconds no combat means an effective 30-40 seconds between respecs. That's acceptable, however I think one or the other is good enough.

To prevent party members from abusing this mechanic by hanging back to skill switch, change things slightly that all party members cannot have given/received damage, nor have used any skills for 10-15 seconds before any respeccing can take place. However, if a party hangs back to skill switch, I don't see that as such a big deal either because the party would lose 15 seconds of DPS.

Allow the way-point system for swapping skills. You finally fight yourself to a way-point, find that your current skill set up is not ideal with what you're fighting, hitting the way-point allows you to switch out skills until you move off it.

It would work, and wouldn't need to portal hop(teleporting to town, switch then back in).

Then it comes down to choice. Do you go back to the previous way-point, teleport to town, or keep going towards the next waypoint?


09/29/2011 02:34 AMPosted by Maliken
What if you used my idea above? Perhaps, free swapping in normal. Higher difficulties swapping via way-points/town. Whenever you get to a way-point, as long as you're on it you can freely swap. This at-least gives some way to swap out in the field.


Alternatively, this is a pretty decent option as well, although it could become annoying to test out different rune effects using this mechanic.
Edited by sparrow on 9/29/2011 2:49 AM PDT
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09/29/2011 02:36 AMPosted by sparrow
Serious - what's the point of having the Cauldron and Cube? If going back to town makes things more challenging, and since it looks like we'll be going there quite a bit now, why not just get rid of them? I'll be going there often enough, might as well just make me sell all my stuff there too!


Agreed. If I am going to be going back to town for respeccs, they should probably get rid of the Cauldron and Cube.


how can you POSSIBLY equate the occasional skill changes to selling/scrapping gear on the fly? we're talking about skill swapping changes to prevent trivialization of content, not to make the game more challenging (they're completely different concepts).

cauldron/cube have no balance issues, so they're fine. unless you're both exaggerating grossly in some sarcastic attempt at making a point... in which case you're failing miserably.
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09/29/2011 02:48 AMPosted by Cronk
unless you're both exaggerating grossly in some sarcastic attempt at making a point... in which case you're failing miserably.

+1
Edited by sparrow on 9/29/2011 2:50 AM PDT
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Limiting skill swapping to town is a good first step, but there needs to be an ever increasing cost to skill swaps to prevent abuses like swapping out skills for each boss and area you face.

Give the player one free skill swap per level up. Additional skill swaps can be purchased for an ever increasing amount of gold.
Edited by Grumpy on 9/29/2011 2:52 AM PDT
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09/29/2011 02:42 AMPosted by sparrow
To prevent party members from abusing this mechanic by hanging back to skill switch, change things slightly that all party members cannot have given/received damage, nor have used any skills for 10-15 seconds before any respeccing can take place. However, if a party hangs back to skill switch, I don't see that as such a big deal either because the party would lose 15 seconds of DPS.


we're trying to prevent abuses of the skill system, not invent new ones. you're not taking griefing into account. if someone in your party doesn't like you they can switch skills and screw you.

the 15s penalty of some kind is fine, IF it starts around hell difficulty. either channel to change, or 100% vulnerability. personally, i think channel, since some people could still script viable defense/offense macros even WITH 100% vulnerability.
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To prevent abuses like swapping out skills for each boss and area you face.


From the blue posts I've read, that scenario is something Blizzard supports. I don't see why that's a problem either.

Also, there's the argument that a game needs "real decisions with real consequences." I don't understand what's so illusory about the fact that I might commit to a Lightning build for this particular boss fight, but I lose because I didn't realize the boss is Lightning Immune. That's seems real enough to me, and it certainly is a decision I made.

we're trying to prevent abuses of the skill system, not invent new ones. you're not taking griefing into account. if someone in your party doesn't like you they can switch skills and screw you.

the 15s penalty of some kind is fine, IF it starts around hell difficulty. either channel to change, or 100% vulnerability. personally, i think channel, since some people could still script viable defense/offense macros even WITH 100% vulnerability.


Okay, I think you're right. I would be very happy with 15s chaneling with or without 100% vulnerability. I don't mind such a penalty beginning at Normal Difficulty, but either way is fine imo. If you can convince me that such a penalty is too severe pre-Hell, then great. :]
Edited by sparrow on 9/29/2011 3:00 AM PDT
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easy to convince. there's no huge balance benefit to skill-swapping pre-hell.

a lvl 60 char with even junk gear can likely lol-stomp normal/nightmare mode, so there's no reason to take away skill swapping from those difficulties. this will allow lower level people a chance to get the hang of the system, and more than that, ENCOURAGE them to swap skills in and out, runes in and out, etc, all in the name of variety and figuring out what you like.

by the time you finish nightmare, you should have an idea on what your favorite skills are, and in hell, you shouldn't be able to swap in an out anymore since that could lead to easily farming high-end gear. ie lvl 60 can farm nightmare np anyways WITHOUT skill-swapping, so don't even try to balance around that. however, skill-swapping COULD provide even poorly equipped 60s with a significant advantage, so it's around the lvl 60 mark that the real balancing of skill-swapping should be looked at.
Edited by Cronk on 9/29/2011 3:30 AM PDT
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