Diablo® III

Swapping skills in town

Putting any swapped out skill on a 30 second cooldown will keep the pace and prevent skill swap macros from being usable in combat.
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ipanda, the difference in combat would be waaay higher than 5%.

how about this build? http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#XiQPge!aed!aaYZbb

now imagine those 6 skills sharing one skill slot. with some preset macros, people could rotate through those skills, doing MASSIVE damage and generating tons of rage, all while healing. that would leave 5 other slots free for doing whatever you want.

if you think that would equate to a 5% increase in damage to someone who's not skill-swapping, you're nuts.


To quote myself:

All they have to do is disallow skills to be swapped while on cooldown and instantly end ongoing affects as soon as the associated skill is swapped. This solves all problems of significance with the current system.


What else you got?
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90 Troll Mage
12065
The purpose of swapping in town is to slow down swapping enough that players avoid swapping at all once they pick a build without making it overly punishing to try different builds. People aren't supposed to leave the action to swap, they're supposed to decide on a build and then stay in the action with that build.

You seem to be assuming people will be changing skills every minute or so, but the idea is to encourage people to change no more than every half hour or hour, if even that often. Unless you're experimenting it's not that much of an inconvenience, and even if it were the inconvenience is worth it if it prevents or even deters skill juggling.

And as I've said every time this comes up, allow swapping anywhere on Normal, let people experiment, just make it clear that that freedom stops at Nightmare.
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12 Goblin Rogue
50
What about a system to go along side the swapping skills in town?
Blizz could make swapping skills in town free, while swapping them outside of the town cost gold. This would provide another gold sink to the game and still allow those people that want to use the feature of swapping skills on the fly.

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The purpose of swapping in town is to slow down swapping enough that players avoid swapping at all once they pick a build without making it overly punishing to try different builds. People aren't supposed to leave the action to swap, they're supposed to decide on a build and then stay in the action with that build.

You seem to be assuming people will be changing skills every minute or so, but the idea is to encourage people to change no more than every half hour or hour, if even that often. Unless you're experimenting it's not that much of an inconvenience, and even if it were the inconvenience is worth it if it prevents or even deters skill juggling.

And as I've said every time this comes up, allow swapping anywhere on Normal, let people experiment, just make it clear that that freedom stops at Nightmare.


I think most of us understand the purpose of town-only swapping. I just personally don't see the need.

If they keep anytime swapping this is what would likely happen:

Some people (10-20%) will chose a set of skills and stick with them 99.9% of the time, only changing when they actually want to change skills for the long term (or for testing for the long term), and not just to make a given encounter easier. Town only changing will only affect these people early on when they are testing lots of skills.

Most people (60-80%) would chose a set of skills and stick with them 95-99% of the time, only changing one or two skills rarely. These changes would be for specific fights or areas. They would make these changes either immediately before entering a boss fight or new area, or they would run away from a tough fight until totally safe, make changes, and go back. Town only changes will just delay these rare changes, but won't keep them from making them at all.

A few people (5-10%) will change skills all the time. Town only changing would indeed cut back on the number of people doing this significantly.

The only real question then becomes is it worth bending one of your core design philosophies and inconveniencing 75% of your players to keep less than 10% of your players from possibly having a minor advantage that you would prefer they don't, but which won't break the game if they do?

That is for Blizzard to decide, but I personally don't think it is worth it.
Edited by iPanda on 9/29/2011 11:07 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
0
I think that a cooldown idea for swapping skills is going to be the best compromise. Also have the cooldown reset whenever you level so that when you do gain a new skill you are automatically able to change your skills. This is the best way to fix this situation in my opinion.
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90 Troll Priest
9375
Limiting skill swapping to town is a terrible idea. It simultaneously would ruin the "stay in the action" vibe, as well as the "trying new stuff for fun!" that everyone is enjoying in Beta.

However, skill swapping needs to be limited. Otherwise, every high-level player would download 3rd party programs to macro 22 different skills to different keys on their keyboard, and greatly speed up their farm rate. People who didn't use the macros would be at a huge disadvantage and would get eaten for lunch on the RMAH.

The most sensible strategy seems to be putting a cooldown on any skill that is newly swapped in. It doesn't even have to be a long cooldown, just enough to discourage people from macroing a skill in the middle of a fight. 10 seconds would work for most abilities. Maybe as long as 30 seconds for healing spells and long-cooldown "fetish army" type things, since these are significantly more powerful to hotswap in compared to standard attacks. It should NOT be anything long enough to really discourage people from swapping to try something new. (for example, waiting the full 120 second cooldown on an ability)
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Swapping skills constantly while fighting is not enjoyable to me but will happen at this rate.

I believe that when your in combat you shouldn't be able to. At the very least give it a cooldown outside of town.

The town only is flawed because people will town alot to change skills and that results in less time slaying monsters
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90 Troll Mage
12065
Why does nobody EVER comment on the part about leaving skill swapping unrestricted in normal mode?
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good question.

seems to me to be the focal point. and the most obvious STARTING POINT for the solution.
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Skill Swapping (regarding PvE):
At the very least, this concept makes people think about the worth of skill sets, literally.

No repercussions from level 1-30. Current system, swap in combat is possible.
When you hit level 30, it costs a small amount of gold to swap skills (250 gold per swap)
When you hit level 60, it costs a a little more gold to swap skills (500 gold per swap)

OR

No repercussions in Normal Mode. Current system, swap in combat is possible.
Nightmare, it costs a small amount of gold to swap skills (250 gold per swap)
Hell, it costs a a little more gold to swap skills (500 gold per swap)
Inferno, restricted entirely or largely expensive (2,500+ gold per swap).


Skill Swapping (regarding PvP):
You can't swap skills during a round, but you can waiting for the next round to start.
Edited by Giraffasaur on 9/30/2011 11:55 AM PDT
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85 Human Death Knight
3080
09/29/2011 10:58 PMPosted by Dreyfuss
Why does nobody EVER comment on the part about leaving skill swapping unrestricted in normal mode?


I think most people agree there shouldn't be restrictions in normal mode because:

a) you don't even pick up stone of recall until around level 7

b) you gain a new skill every level and will want to test it

c) restrictions will discourage experimentation with skills
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85 Orc Shaman
6395
09/28/2011 07:16 PMPosted by Bashiok
As a follow up, there's no concept of 'in combat' or 'out of combat' in the game, so that's not something we can just hook in to. There could be. We could take programming time dedicated to other features and design and build out a 'combat state' system, but that's programming time away from something else.


so much for the out of combat ideas, unless developers feel like delaying up coming games or features of diablo by redirecting the programmers to this issue, where probably stuck with the in town swap.

heard this idea in the same thread and i think could counter the in combat switching, given there would be an existing mechanic to hook up to

What about just depleting the players resource globe to zero when skills are swapped. I'm pretty sure nobody is going to want to swap skills in the middle of combat if they know they are going to have no resources to work with for 5-10 seconds. That would be similar to running to town to do it but far less disruptive of the game flow, especially if you're grouped. You won't hold up your party, you just won't be that useful for a short period
not an exact qoute only the parts i liked
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The purpose of swapping in town is to slow down swapping enough that players avoid swapping at all once they pick a build without making it overly punishing to try different builds. People aren't supposed to leave the action to swap, they're supposed to decide on a build and then stay in the action with that build.

You seem to be assuming people will be changing skills every minute or so, but the idea is to encourage people to change no more than every half hour or hour, if even that often. Unless you're experimenting it's not that much of an inconvenience, and even if it were the inconvenience is worth it if it prevents or even deters skill juggling.

And as I've said every time this comes up, allow swapping anywhere on Normal, let people experiment, just make it clear that that freedom stops at Nightmare.


I think most of us understand the purpose of town-only swapping. I just personally don't see the need.

If they keep anytime swapping this is what would likely happen:

Some people (10-20%) will chose a set of skills and stick with them 99.9% of the time, only changing when they actually want to change skills for the long term (or for testing for the long term), and not just to make a given encounter easier. Town only changing will only affect these people early on when they are testing lots of skills.

Most people (60-80%) would chose a set of skills and stick with them 95-99% of the time, only changing one or two skills rarely. These changes would be for specific fights or areas. They would make these changes either immediately before entering a boss fight or new area, or they would run away from a tough fight until totally safe, make changes, and go back. Town only changes will just delay these rare changes, but won't keep them from making them at all.

A few people (5-10%) will change skills all the time. Town only changing would indeed cut back on the number of people doing this significantly.

The only real question then becomes is it worth bending one of your core design philosophies and inconveniencing 75% of your players to keep less than 10% of your players from possibly having a minor advantage that you would prefer they don't, but which won't break the game if they do?

That is for Blizzard to decide, but I personally don't think it is worth it.


More likely everyone will look at the next monster, rush back to town and change all their skills, just like 99.9% of the people in Diablo 2 did with Tokens of Absolution.

See? I can make up numbers too.

Speculative statistics get you nowhere. The point is, you're not supposed to be changing your skills based on your situation. You're supposed to adjust your skills until you have a build you're comfortable in most situations with. Town-switching addresses this the best. If you're adjusting your skills to handle a particular situation, it'll be a large nuisance. If you're merely experimenting, it's not unlike going to the stash to experiment with some decent items you stored away a while ago. You won't really feel it.

I honestly don't think people need to run back to town before every boss because they have a "boss killing" set-up. That's not really how Diablo II was played at all, and I don't see why Diablo III should suddenly be played that way. Maybe some people will choose to, but the effort and time it takes may outweigh the benefits regardless.
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
2785
Here was my suggestion on the topic.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en-us/forum/topic/3278811116#2
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Skill swapping should either have a cast-time that plants the player in place like the stone of recall/hearthstone or you simply cannot swap during combat or if any monsters are actively pursuing you.
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I like some of the more complicated ideas, unfortunately it's difficult to think of any way that would discourage swapping from mob to mob to "optimize" for every new decision because the skills all act in a different way.

Perhaps you should have a "practiced" buff that you only get after not swapping skills for 15 minutes that increases your damage by 10%.

Don't know if that would work, but perhaps having an incentive to not swap would be better than a disincentive to swapping.
Edited by Ilsa on 10/4/2011 11:21 AM PDT
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