Diablo® III

"Loss of a feeling of a leveling achievement"

Posts: 1,206
I mean no offense, but I feel like what you are asking for is precisely what is wrong with the development of games. Everyone is EXPECTING something for progression. Some kind of reward, incentive, prize...however you call it, people's expectations are clouding the fulfillment of the game itself. Why can't you simply play the game because you enjoy it, not because you have to in order to earn a gold star?

I really hope that didn't sound condescending...though I hope it helps make my point clear.


No offense taken. I don't 'need' a reward so long as the gameplay is compelling enough to keep me playing. But if there are no 'rewards' or improvements upon leveling, then why have a leveling system at all?

Believe me, I'm not the type of person who plays games for 10 minutes and gets bored if there's not a bazillion flashy prizes on the screen every 10 seconds telling me how awesome I am. I grinded out HRs in single player for years just to make one or two cool runewords to play with, and that was reward enough for hundreds of hours of grinding. BUT, 'reward, incentive, prize...progression' is exactly what leveling systems are designed around.


So then is the intent of your OP that they just drop levels all together, or just stop at 30?

Also remember that other things are "unlocked" as you level past 30. Items for instance are known to have level requirements up to 60.

If not a leveling system, then how else do you prevent a brand new character from equipping the best item in the game for that class, like was the problem in original Diablo.
Edited by Sean on 10/24/2011 3:23 PM PDT
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Posts: 478
I would also like to add my commendation for the level-headedness of this thread... may it continue peacefully.

10/24/2011 03:15 PMPosted by Izael
You don't just get stupid little percentage differences, you get real results that you notice every single time you level. I hope D3 implements something that creates the same feeling.


I think this was part of the reason for reducing the level cap - I know WoW operated on the 60-level system, but mobs progress differently in WoW - they seem to "amp up" less (vanilla Wow, mind you, expansions have created more tiers) than the enemies in the diablo series. I think the Dev.team wanted to contract those 99 levels of improvements into 60 levels, ostensibly "amping" the per-level improvements by 33% percent (presuming they were balancing everything so that "endgame" took X hours, regardless of what level they assigned to be "endgame level).

On the same note, I totally agree. I HATED the gradual progression of WoW - each level felt like a drop in the bucket rather than yet another awesome thing I did.
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I just want to see if Inferno is as hard as they say, and beat it, with as many characters as possible, and hopefully with a HC character as well. That's enough of a goal for me.
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Posts: 454
So then is the intent of your OP that they just drop levels all together, or just stop at 30?

Also remember that other things are "unlocked" as you level past 30. Items for instance are known to have level requirements up to 60.


Nope, I have no issues with the level 60 cap - if anything I would probably prefer more levels but they have put forward enticing arguments as to why they condensed the level scaling down to 60.

My point is that they clearly identified a significant flaw with removing manual allocations in 2008 and implied they had plans to mitigate said flaw, but it seems like we have yet to see their solution and implementation in-game. There are only three possible explanations that I can think of:

  • They had a proposed solution, but it was scrapped at some point in the development and never saw the light of day.

  • They have a proposed solution and it will be in the final release, but we have not yet seen it implemented as of the beta build.

  • The proposed solution is implemented in the current build and I am overlooking or missing something.


  • Thus my OP and the ensuing discussion. I believe Blizzard is a very thorough game developer, and if they said back in 2008 that they had identified this particular issue and had plans to address it, I think it is fair to assume that they fleshed out that concept either to completion or to the point where they simply felt they had to scrap whatever idea they originally had. I'm curious which is true.
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    Posts: 478
    Nope, I have no issues with the level 60 cap - if anything I would probably prefer more levels but they have put forward enticing arguments as to why they condensed the level scaling down to 60.

    My point is that they clearly identified a significant flaw with removing manual allocations in 2008 and implied they had plans to mitigate said flaw, but it seems like we have yet to see their solution and implementation in-game. There are only three possible explanations that I can think of:

    They had a proposed solution, but it was scrapped at some point in the development and never saw the light of day.

    They have a proposed solution and it will be in the final release, but we have not yet seen it implemented as of the beta build.

    The proposed solution is implemented in the current build and I am overlooking or missing something.


    Thus my OP and the ensuing discussion. I believe Blizzard is a very thorough game developer, and if they said back in 2008 that they had identified this particular issue and had plans to address it, I think it is fair to assume that they fleshed out that concept either to completion or to the point where they simply felt they had to scrap whatever idea they originally had. I'm curious which is true.


    I can't fault the logic, and I'm totally 100% a pro 60-levelcap advocate. I'm now curious to see if there's any Blizzard input on this. Something tells me it was a "well, we would like to improve this but have to devote our attention to finishing game systems x,y and z before perfecting system t."

    Sometimes compromises have to be made?
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    Posts: 75
    Personally, I dont find that there is much difference between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 leveling "rewards". Of course the stats are missing, of course there is no more skill point spending, but what really throve me from going through several 99 levels, and much more grinding? It was the fact that you can, at any moment stumble on a magnificent peace of unique item. I'm in this for the phat lewts baby. But hey, that's just me.

    I don't think that they removed leveling achievements when they implemented the auto-stats leveler. What they did was they restraining the choices for you to personalize your character.

    Also prove me wrong but, in D2 there is no such thing as "new passive" or "new skill" past the lvl 30 when you finally reached the top (or bottom... whatever) of the tree skill.

    -Edited for grammar failure.
    Edited by EwoksKing on 10/24/2011 3:47 PM PDT
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    Posts: 456
    I think that I felt more of a sense of achievement when I found my first stormshield......or when I found my first goldstrike arch then when I reached lvl 99 on my zon, barb, or pally. Putting that last skill point into the skill was a good feeling no doubt...........but nowhere near the feeling of seeing that un id'd shield laying on the ground then bam............stormshield.
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    Posts: 411
    lvl 30-60 youre grinding levels which sounds lame but well be getting runes and changing your spells that way. whether youre just getting a higher rank of the rune youre currently using or a new one you havent before, there will be new stuff/rewards as you level
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    Posts: 605
    I mean no offense, but I feel like what you are asking for is precisely what is wrong with the development of games. Everyone is EXPECTING something for progression. Some kind of reward, incentive, prize...however you call it, people's expectations are clouding the fulfillment of the game itself. Why can't you simply play the game because you enjoy it, not because you have to in order to earn a gold star?

    I really hope that didn't sound condescending...though I hope it helps make my point clear.


    This guy's got it.
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    Edited for spam.
    Edited by Jacka on 1/4/2012 1:24 AM PST
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    Posts: 4,098
    I will mention that Dungeon Siege had no level-up achievements and that actually was one reason it felt worse than Diablo 2 (an older game) right off the bat. But of course it had other bigger reasons why it was inferior.

    Just a note.
    Edited by Onetwo on 10/24/2011 3:53 PM PDT
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    Posts: 454
    I don't disagree with either of you (Doomtooth, Ewoks), but item rewards are entirely outside the scope of a leveling system. Like I said in a previous post, rare items were incentive enough to keep me grinding through D2 for years on end.

    But that doesn't change the fact that good design in a leveling system rewards the player for achieving the next level - independent of all other systems in the game - so that if you're playing a game based on RNG items and you don't find that phat lewt during your playthrough, you feel as though you've accomplished something awesome just by making your character more powerful. The funny thing is you're still making your character more powerful by leveling in D3, it's just much less apparent to the player because it requires very little to no input. In D2 you leveled up, opened your character screen and your skill screen and watched all those fandangled numbers bump up with each click you made. Auto-allocation and the removal of skill points takes that functionality away from the player, which is something that Blizzard identified as a real issue early in development that they said they intended to address. So what have they done to address it?

    Loot is awesome. Loot + character development / 'leveling achievement' is even awesomererer.
    Edited by Robes on 10/24/2011 4:00 PM PDT
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    Posts: 454
    10/24/2011 03:51 PMPosted by Cyro
    This guy's got it.


    Keep reading. It's not about "blang blang tell me I'm awesome every 10 seconds or I'm going to get bored".

    You don't want incentives or rewards in a game, don't implement a leveling system. Rewards are literally the core around which a leveling functionality is designed.
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    Posts: 889
    Clicking a + button isn't rewarding to me. Nor does it feel like a reward. It just doesn't. The old manual stat allocation system had the same flaw the current one does in this regard. After you hit around level 40ish (might be higher, depending on the build), you just click the vitality + button 5 times per level.

    Does that really feel like a "reward" to you? Honestly, I want to know. You could just open calculator and click + 5 times each time you level.

    It doesn't matter.
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    Posts: 454
    Clicking a + button isn't rewarding to me. Nor does it feel like a reward. It just doesn't. The old manual stat allocation system had the same flaw the current one does in this regard. After you hit around level 40ish (might be higher, depending on the build), you just click the vitality + button 5 times per level.

    Does that really feel like a "reward" to you? Honestly, I want to know. You could just open calculator and click + 5 times each time you level.

    It doesn't matter.


    It's funny because I literally summarized your entire post in one sentence in the OP, and I already explained why this discussion is outside of this argument's "jurisdiction", so to speak.

    While it may not seem like a "reward" to you, it was to a lot of people. Blizzard has clearly stated in the post I referenced that they know there was a sense of achievement or reward with each and every level up in D2 that is missing in the D3 system. This thread is mostly about how they plan or had originally planned (if they scrapped the system) to address that specific issue, which they already identified and stated they intended to address.

    Edit: And I don't mean to be dismissive, but if you don't feel as though there was a greater sense of achievement and reward for the player for leveling in D2 than there currently is in D3, then you're really not going to be able to follow the rest of the logic. That's fine, but there's no point in arguing if you disagree with the fundamental belief that manual stat and skill allocations were a reward for leveling in D2.

    And to your question, yes, clicking a '+' button to me is just as rewarding as clicking that 'gold' item on the screen. Both serve to make my character more powerful or help me progress through content faster, and both are a product of my time investment in the game and my character.
    Edited by Robes on 10/24/2011 4:31 PM PDT
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    10/24/2011 03:28 PMPosted by MordeN
    I just want to see if Inferno is as hard as they say, and beat it, with as many characters as possible, and hopefully with a HC character as well. That's enough of a goal for me.


    ^ this

    They are shifting the "leveling achievement" from being level-based to content-based. I am okay with this since leveling isn't all that spectacular an achievement. Going from 89 to 90 isn't any to brag about but surviving X level on inferno sure would.
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    Posts: 29
    This might have nothing to do with anything and maybe I am just easily impressed, but to me what did it in Diablo 2 was the sound.
    I honestly didn't care much about allocating stat points (I'd usually save them up until level 50 or so) or skill points for the purpose of seeing them grow. And also when I leveled up I didn't really care what level I was hitting.

    What really pumped me was the bright, metallic, firm sound of the Diablo 2 level-up, and the sounds of the "+" buttons being clicked. That was the biggest part of the experience, for me.
    Whenever I leveled up, I immediately felt something cool had happened, because that sound was so awesome.

    Just throwing that out there.
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