Diablo® III

"Loss of a feeling of a leveling achievement"

10/24/2011 03:56 PMPosted by Robes
In D2 you leveled up, opened your character screen and your skill screen and watched all those fandangled numbers bump up with each click you made. Auto-allocation and the removal of skill points takes that functionality away from the player


Well yea, you kinda needed to know what you were going to use, to have enough STR for armor, block and so on. It had some limits.

With the skill points? Actually after learning how not to skill up a char I end up just not using the skill points until I was high enough level to unload them on a certain skill. So it was still like not adding any skill for 10 levels.

I don't feel like I'm gonna miss that ability in D3. The skill system with the runes will be enough to play with after lvl 30. I can use new runes when I reach their level and new items of course. Testing out the different skill combos with the new runes to find/perfect my style will be rewarding enough.
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Well yea, you kinda needed to know what you were going to use, to have enough STR for armor, block and so on. It had some limits.

With the skill points? Actually after learning how not to skill up a char I end up just not using the skill points until I was high enough level to unload them on a certain skill. So it was still like not adding any skill for 10 levels.

I don't feel like I'm gonna miss that ability in D3. The skill system with the runes will be enough to play with after lvl 30. I can use new runes when I reach their level and new items of course. Testing out the different skill combos with the new runes to find/perfect my style will be rewarding enough.


Understandable, itemization in later levels is rewarding enough to keep you playing. And personally I agree, which is why I said I'll be fine whether or not we see any other systems implemented in the final release. But it does not change the fact that Blizzard identified this particular issue as something they were looking to address, yet appear to have done very little to do so as of the beta build.

Think of it this way: Imagine there is a whiteboard in the Blizzard office with all of the outstanding issues they wish to address before launch. In 2008 - in glaring red felt pen no less - they chalk up "Loss of a leveling achievement" as an issue they "recognize and intend to address". This is what I envision when I read Bashiok's post in the thread I referenced.

Now fast forward to today. Is that bullet point still present on the whiteboard, covered in a layer of grime and dust from neglect? Somehow I doubt it. Clearly it was on their 'to-do' list, and it doesn't seem like something you would leave until a month or two before launch to address. Assuming this is a logical train of thought, Blizzard has, at some point, addressed or attempted to address this issue. So where is the in-game implementation? What system(s) is(are) present to facilitate a feeling of "leveling achievement" to make up for a lack of manually distributable character points at each level up?

That's what I'm trying to understand.
Edited by Robes on 10/24/2011 5:00 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Warlock
3880
10/24/2011 03:15 PMPosted by Izael
The thing I have always loved about the Diablo seriies is the fact that everything you put a point into makes a substantial difference.You don't just get stupid little percentage differences, you get real results that you notice every single time you level. I hope D3 implements something that creates the same feeling.


Yea its called your items... the stronger they become the stronger your' spells and abilities will become. instead of spamming 20 points into fire bolt, then fireball, then meteor , etc etc etc you are gaining strength by finding gear... So one could say items are even more important in Diablo 3 than they ever were in Diablo 2.
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Think of it this way: Imagine there is a whiteboard in the Blizzard office with all of the outstanding issues they wish to address before launch. In 2008 - in glaring red felt pen no less - they chalk up "Loss of a leveling achievement" as an issue they "recognize and intend to address". This is what I envision when I read Bashiok's post in the thread I referenced.

Now fast forward to today. Is that bullet point still present on the whiteboard, covered in a layer of grime and dust from neglect? Somehow I doubt it. Clearly it was on their 'to-do' list, and it doesn't seem like something you would leave until a month or two before launch to address. Assuming this is a logical train of thought, Blizzard has, at some point, addressed or attempted to address this issue. So where is the in-game implementation? What system(s) is(are) present to facilitate a feeling of "leveling achievement"?

That's what I'm trying to understand.


I suppose it's possible that they've had, since then, a certain number of brainstorming sessions and inside-feedback and decided that the way it is right now represents enough of a solution or makes the whole thing a non-issue. There was no beta back then and no real way of getting a solid "feel" of the level-up process.
Maybe they took this partial sub-optimal element in order to guarantee the optimal complete game, based on what they wanted to make.
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Edited for spam.
Edited by Jacka on 1/4/2012 1:24 AM PST
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Well they have changed many things since 2008.

They will not give manual stat points and skill points won't return. What options are there left? Make a button that gives us the autostats so we have something to click?
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10/24/2011 05:05 PMPosted by Jacka
How would you get that level if you are dieing constantly losing exp?


No experience loss upon death in D3.
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Well they have changed many things since 2008.

They will not give manual stat points and skill points won't return. What options are there left? Make a button that gives us the autostats so we have something to click?


Haha, and now you have arrived at the point of the discussion.

The interesting thing is that Bashiok's post seems to hint that Blizzard had ideas as far back as 2008 as to how they were going to do this. So what I want to know is whether they fell flat and pulled them altogether, implemented them but in a way we haven't seen to date, or implemented things that we have seen that I simply don't register as a substitute for the D2 character points systems.

Which is why I was asking, especially people like you who have played the beta, do you feel justly rewarded for leveling up? Does every level provide you with a sense of achievement?

Honestly, the answer should be yes in the first 13 levels if for no other reason than you're still constantly unlocking abilities. Annnnnd as I type this I realized they added the system for unlocking your active and passive skill slots, which is a leveling incentive new to D3. Perhaps this was one of the systems Bashiok was referring to. I'm just wondering if there are more similar systems that I may be overlooking. From what I can tell there are rewarding 'breakpoint' levels, and other levels that really don't do a whole lot for you. That seems odd from a design standpoint, unless you start overlapping the systems and realize that nearly every level has something to offer. That would be cool.

So far in this thread I have now seen:

Level up animation and AOE effect (every level - perhaps cooler in later levels?)
Unlocking passive and active skills (early levels)
Passive and active skill slots (early levels)
Player titles (certain level breakpoints)
Rune ranks (certain level breakpoints - technically this is leaning towards itemization, but I'll let it slide)

Honestly, it's kind of cool just pulling together a big picture idea of the leveling system. Discussion is good.

I wonder if there will be more incentives in the upper levels, as the list above seems to be weighted towards the lower levels.
Edited by Robes on 10/24/2011 5:20 PM PDT
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As an aside, does anyone know if there are any level requirements for leveling up your artisans to higher levels?

I believe the highest I've seen in beta is a level 6 (4?) Blacksmith, but it's possible that's simply because you need crafting materials not obtainable in the beta content to level him up further.
Edited by Robes on 10/24/2011 5:40 PM PDT
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I agree with the OP

I'd also add that in Diablo II getting to level 30 the first few times felt EPIC.

I still remember soooo long ago when I was a total newb...the first time I joined a game and saw a sorc clearing everything in a normal game for a friend with frozen orb...I was like "woaahh that is awesome!"

Not too long after that I made a sorc and saw that I had to get to level 30 before I would get frozen orb. At first I was disheartened...all that leveling *sigh* its going to take forever!

But then when I hit level 30 it felt truly awesome! I was on cloud 9.

The same thing goes for whirlwind the first time I got to 30 on a barb.

And then it was that same experience all over again when I hit 30 the first time on a sorc and a bar on hardcore.

Those levels felt pretty much amazing.


Diablo 3 will probably be a great game, and fun to play, but I doubt it is going to have any of those moments where you feel like you have really done something awesome like D2 had. When everything comes easy, it just isn't as special.

thanks for the post



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+1 from me for this post.

I did want to point one thing out that may or may not be relevant upon release. While watching beta content, I noticed that the blacksmith was quickly crafting items that far out-leveled the cap in the beta. If crafted gear is entry level or slightly better for each level I would be excited to hit level X so that I could equip my new set of gear. It could be that on release people wont have smiths that surpass their level early on due to a lack of an early cap. However, regardless if this ends up not a valid point for everyone's first chars or not, it definitely will play into every character after the first.

"You have been killed by a squirrel" - feels bad
"You killed a squirrel" - feels bad too
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+1 from me for this post.

I did want to point one thing out that may or may not be relevant upon release. While watching beta content, I noticed that the blacksmith was quickly crafting items that far out-leveled the cap in the beta. If crafted gear is entry level or slightly better for each level I would be excited to hit level X so that I could equip my new set of gear. It could be that on release people wont have smiths that surpass their level early on due to a lack of an early cap. However, regardless if this ends up not a valid point for everyone's first chars or not, it definitely will play into every character after the first.

"You have been killed by a squirrel" - feels bad
"You killed a squirrel" - feels bad too


A good point, but once again I feel this plays more into the itemization system then a leveling achievement for the most part - it's not so much a product of the leveling system as it is the items system, and it will still be dependent to some extent on the RNG and luck of the draw.

If you play through as a Barb for your first character and you don't find any cool recipes for crossbows or anything particularly useful for a DH this won't necessarily apply, so it's still subject to chance. And since most of the really kick !@# items that you're going to want to roll a new class to level up to equip are probably going to lean more towards end-game (level 55+) items and crafting recipes, it's quite possible it'll just end up being more incentive to want to speed through the leveling process instead of getting a sense of achievement for each and every level.
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Clicking a + button isn't rewarding to me. Nor does it feel like a reward. It just doesn't. The old manual stat allocation system had the same flaw the current one does in this regard. After you hit around level 40ish (might be higher, depending on the build), you just click the vitality + button 5 times per level.

Does that really feel like a "reward" to you? Honestly, I want to know. You could just open calculator and click + 5 times each time you level.

It doesn't matter.


It's funny because I literally summarized your entire post in one sentence in the OP, and I already explained why this discussion is outside of this argument's "jurisdiction", so to speak.

While it may not seem like a "reward" to you, it was to a lot of people. Blizzard has clearly stated in the post I referenced that they know there was a sense of achievement or reward with each and every level up in D2 that is missing in the D3 system. This thread is mostly about how they plan or had originally planned (if they scrapped the system) to address that specific issue, which they already identified and stated they intended to address.

Edit: And I don't mean to be dismissive, but if you don't feel as though there was a greater sense of achievement and reward for the player for leveling in D2 than there currently is in D3, then you're really not going to be able to follow the rest of the logic. That's fine, but there's no point in arguing if you disagree with the fundamental belief that manual stat and skill allocations were a reward for leveling in D2.

And to your question, yes, clicking a '+' button to me is just as rewarding as clicking that 'gold' item on the screen. Both serve to make my character more powerful or help me progress through content faster, and both are a product of my time investment in the game and my character.


Blizzard already addressed your concern then. They can't cater to every single players individual sense of reward. Someone will always end up unhappy, in that case, that someone is you. Too bad. That is how things go sometimes. There are plenty of games that still have manual skill stat allocation (Dark Souls does, and playing through it I remembered why it is such a flawed system). Go play those if you want that specific type of reward. They can't put every reward system in this game, and that is something that was cut, after long consideration.

Not every game can do everything. There isn't much else to say.
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As an aside, does anyone know if there are any level requirements for leveling up your artisans to higher levels?

I believe the highest I've seen in beta is a level 6 (4?) Blacksmith, but it's possible that's simply because you need crafting materials not obtainable in the beta content to level him up further.


That is correct, you can only get so far and then nightmare components are required. But since the atrisans are account based, there would be no true level restrictions other than those on the items themselves.
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Blizzard already addressed your concern then. They can't cater to every single players individual sense of reward. Someone will always end up unhappy, in that case, that someone is you. Too bad. That is how things go sometimes. There are plenty of games that still have manual skill stat allocation (Dark Souls does, and playing through it I remembered why it is such a flawed system). Go play those if you want that specific type of reward. They can't put every reward system in this game, and that is something that was cut, after long consideration.

Not every game can do everything. There isn't much else to say.


Sigh. I'm not unhappy. I'm not looking for manual stat allocations. I'm not looking for 'every reward system'. You've missed the entire point of the thread.

My point, to reiterate, is that Blizzard identified that they were taking away (or limiting) the sense of achievement upon leveling up by implementing auto attributes and removing skill points. They then stated that, as of 2008, they intended to address this specifically before release. My question is then "What systems are currently implemented to address this issue?" And - subsequently - if these systems (if any) appear to be lacking, why is that?

Was this idea scrapped because they found it was too cumbersome to implement? Is a solution implemented that we have yet to see? Is a solution implemented in the current beta build that I am overlooking?

These are the questions I wanted to discuss. Hopefully now you understand what I'm trying to get it. I'm not b*tching about the lack of manual stat allocations, and I'm not even whining about the "deadzone" that many have alluded to in the last 30 levels of gameplay, I'm simply wondering what Blizzard has done since Bashiok's statement in 2008 to instill a sense of "leveling achievement" on the player as he progresses from levels 1 through 60.
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10/25/2011 11:16 AMPosted by Mike
That is correct, you can only get so far and then nightmare components are required. But since the atrisans are account based, there would be no true level restrictions other than those on the items themselves.


Thanks for the clarification / confirmation. This is how I understand it as well.
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Blizzard already addressed your concern then. They can't cater to every single players individual sense of reward. Someone will always end up unhappy, in that case, that someone is you. Too bad. That is how things go sometimes. There are plenty of games that still have manual skill stat allocation (Dark Souls does, and playing through it I remembered why it is such a flawed system). Go play those if you want that specific type of reward. They can't put every reward system in this game, and that is something that was cut, after long consideration.

Not every game can do everything. There isn't much else to say.


Sigh. I'm not unhappy. I'm not looking for manual stat allocations. I'm not looking for 'every reward system'. You've missed the entire point of the thread.

My point, to reiterate, is that Blizzard identified that they were taking away (or limiting) the sense of achievement upon leveling up by implementing auto attributes and removing skill points. They then stated that, as of 2008, they intended to address this specifically before release. My question is then "What systems are currently implemented to address this issue?" And - subsequently - if these systems (if any) appear to be lacking, why is that?

Was this idea scrapped because they found it was too cumbersome to implement? Is a solution implemented that we have yet to see? Is a solution implemented in the current beta build that I am overlooking?

These are the questions I wanted to discuss. Hopefully now you understand what I'm trying to get it. I'm not b*tching about the lack of manual stat allocations, and I'm not even whining about the "deadzone" that many have alluded to in the last 30 levels of gameplay, I'm simply wondering what Blizzard has done since Bashiok's statement in 2008 to instill a sense of "leveling achievement" on the player as he progresses from levels 1 through 60.


I get the point of the thread. On the surface, you want Bashiok to address one sentence from one post from 3 years back, about replacing some vague lost feeling you get when leveling up. The fact that you would honestly expect that comes across as ridiculous, to me, at least. You really want a statement about a statement from 2008 regarding, not a feature, but a feature that is supposed to give the same "feeling" as a feature they have removed?

If that is your genuine intent, then ok. But I have news for you, you aren't going to get one. Ever. Not only does Blizzard discourage directly asking them questions on the forums, they aren't going to announce that they won't be able to deliver on a "feature" that never existed.

That is why I assumed you were actually !@#$%ing, because the above sentiment is too ridiculous to actually believe.

And if that is true, allow me to translate that Blizzard statement for you. "We are taking out the stat point system because we realized it was pretty terrible. If you liked it, too bad. Don't worry about it though, because the game will be solid, we know what we are doing, and you will like it anyhow."

Which I would largely agree with.
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