Diablo® III

Of Weapon Speed, Wizards and One-Handers

Excellent post. Thanks Bash + Wyatt.

Demon hunter slow vs fast weapons is the next thing I'd like to see Wyatt comment on!
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Excellent post. Thanks Bash + Wyatt.

Demon hunter slow vs fast weapons is the next thing I'd like to see Wyatt comment on!
Hmm. Wouldn't it be kind of the same as what's going on with Wizards?

I mean, they have natural hatred regen and hatred generators, similar to what wizards have with AP regen and signatures. The main difference is that their generators seem to be a bit stronger for resource generation and their natural regen seems to be a bit weaker.

I guess that would make it favor the faster weapons a bit more than it does for Wizards except in specific cases like crimson Sentry/Caltrops (unless that tics faster with weapon speed), which, if the way Wizards are set up already favors fast weapons over slow weapons, means that slow weapons might be in even more trouble for DHs, so there may be a problem there.

Actually, it seems like several (not all) of the rocket-based skills (Sentry, Rapid Fire(?), and possibly strafe?) also fire a set amount per second based on weapon damage and most Discipline-based damage does a set amount of % weapon damage per second (plus Disc's a very limited resource, so if you're looking to use it for damage, you want to get as much as possible with how limited it is), so maybe that helps to balance it out in slow weapons' favor... for certain builds.

Edit: Then again, a lot of the stuff on the fast vs. slow weapons for Wizards also involves 1H+OH's strength vs 2H, while for DH it's always ranged weapon + quiver regardless of the speed of your weapon, so maybe the discussion on Wizard weapon speed isn't really very relevant. Though the points about overkill and being able to move and go quicker are.
Edited by Wind on 10/28/2011 7:11 PM PDT
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10/28/2011 06:34 PMPosted by Azzure
Demon hunter slow vs fast weapons is the next thing I'd like to see Wyatt comment on!


Exact same thing. +damage on weapons and gear, extra stats and 15% faster attack speed for dual weilding give incentive for faster weapons.

In fact it works better on Demon hunters because they don't have to use runes or passives to make their "free" spells generate their main resource. They get it built in automatically on their skills.
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10/28/2011 08:20 PMPosted by Omgonoz
What is this supposed to mean exactly?


Spilled damage is overkill damage.

If you do 1000 damage per attack (2 seconds to attack) with one setup and 500 damage per attack (1 second to attack) with another, but they both have the same DPS you can get the following situation with a 2 monsters that have 1400 HP.

First Scenario

2 seconds: 1000 damage to first, 400 hp left.
4 seconds: 2000 damage in all to first, 0 hp left, 600 overkill/spilled damage.
6 seconds: 1000 damage to first, 400 hp left.
8 seconds: 2000 damage in all to second, 0 hp left, 1200 in overkill/spilled damage.

End result: 2 monsters dead in 8 seconds.

Second Scenario

1 second 500 damage to first 900 hp left
2 seconds 1000 damage in all to first 400 hp left
3 seconds 1500 damage in all to first, 0 hp left, 100 overkill/spilled damage.
4 seconds 500 damage to second, 900 hp left
5 seconds 1000 damage in all to first 400 hp left.
6 seconds 1500 damage in all to first 0 hp left, 200 overkill/spilled damage.

End result: 2 monsters dead in 6 seconds.

You want to minimize your overkill/spilled damage when facing multiple monsters so that you can get to the next monster faster, and overall kill faster. Faster weapon speeds help with minimizing spilled damage because each attack has less potential for overkill. There are cases, like if the monsters had 1000 or 2000 HP, that the end result would be the same.

I responded to bash with this:

It's interesting that Wyatt mentions quite well that spilled damage matters. Which it does, if there's spilled damage. And I'm quite sure this will be more common in the earlier difficulties when it's not so hard. I understand and expect that, but it wasn't until we kept getting told that you will die in inferno that I considered that being AP efficient might be a bigger factor in being able to survive - which is actually where I started thinking well if that's the case, then slow weapons may be more viable. Because of all the impressions of inferno seem to imply that monsters will have so much health that spill won't matter so much at that level. Because their health pools are so big that it's more important to actually be able to do damage fast enough to kill monsters so you can survive than worrying about how much you happened to overkill it by with your last hit. Which means spilled damage may not matter as much... at least in inferno, if monsters have those large of health pools.

Regardless, it makes for good compelling choices, with advantages to both, which is exactly was the intent of the question in the first place.


Of course, Wyatt is a developer who is playing inferno and knows those health pools, I can only stipulate based on what we've been told. The conclusion is the same, it makes for good compelling choices, with advantages to both. :) Which means this game will be fun and have customization!
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Thank you.
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10/28/2011 02:24 PMPosted by Joker


No, Wyatt's name is Wyatt.


Exactly. And your Wyatt, so your name is Wyatt. Why no? You just validated what i said...



The 'no' kind of, unvalidated it.
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Is there no "Procs per minute" mechanic like in WoW? You say faster weapons are better for procs and I wanted to clarify that point.!


since he said faster weapons are better at fishing for procs, i'm going to safely assume that PPM doesn't exist. i think it was a good mechanic for WoW, but in D3 i'd rather not have so many fairly hidden mechanics that simply make every weapon equal. this way, if i have a cool proc i want to try and get a lot, i can go for a fast weapon, but if i want high damage numbers, i can go for a 2her
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but do defensive abilities scale off weapon damage too?

The wizard has a spell that blocks X incoming damage, on a cooldown (diamond skin, I think). If you have higher weapon damage, is that value increased? How different is that from using a shield?



And what about something like teleport concerning cast speed? Is teleport a standard cast speed, or is it too based on weapon speed?
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10/29/2011 11:37 AMPosted by Loreshock
The wizard has a spell that blocks X incoming damage, on a cooldown (diamond skin, I think). If you have higher weapon damage, is that value increased?


From all the available information, including blizzcon, this is not the case. If it has a number for a value your weapon does not affect it. There's nothing to imply that it will be, but I can test this if you want when the patch with weapon speed affecting cast speed hits.

10/29/2011 11:37 AMPosted by Loreshock
And what about something like teleport concerning cast speed? Is teleport a standard cast speed, or is it too based on weapon speed?


From all available information, cast speed is based off attack speed. But once the patch with weapon speed affecting cast speed hits, I'll definitely test this and confirm it for people.
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I wonder if there is anyway to raise defensive skill power, like Diamond Skin or monk heal skills/effects. Maybe X% of your gear's base armor? Like, Diamond Skin absorbs Y + X% armor count damage? You'd think eventually people will be able to chop down Diamond Skin quickly if they have ultra damage gear, and yet, Skin can't scale from better gear at all.
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Also, a question about extreme build dimorphism. Some skills/runes will work better w/ a two hand weapon versus a one hand weapon (unless off hands are as overpowered as Wyatt claims, another, different problem). This is fine. But the degree of difference can't be too great, otherwise you would be stupid to use skill X w/ a two hand weapon or skill Y w/ a one hand weapon. If that happens, then builds become really constrained; you can't effectively mix two hand skills and one hand skills. What steps are Blizzard taking to prevent weapon/build dimorphism? And this includes Hunters/Barbs/Monks, as well.
Edited by Cacophony on 10/29/2011 8:47 PM PDT
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Interesting read! Thanks :D
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10/29/2011 08:46 PMPosted by Cacophony
What steps are Blizzard taking to prevent weapon/build dimorphism?


Rather your question was extreme dimorphism, not just dimorphism, because that's what they actually wanted to create, both pros and cons to basing things off weapon speed.

Wyatt says at one point, that one hand + offhand is out damaging 2h. He's aware of it. Really, it's just fine tuning numbers to help minimize extreme dimorphism.

They want you to weigh the pros and cons of 1h+orb or shield vs 2h for your build. They can do that by making each have it's advantages and disadvantages. If at any point one outweighs the other to the point that you would be stupid to not make that choice, like the original question of "What incentives are there to having a fast weapon, as it seems to be better to have a slow weapon?", they'll re-tune the numbers to make sure it's a choice.

Currently the question Wyatt is probably asking himself, given his admittance of thinking 1h + offhand may be too dominant in inferno, is "Is 1h+ offhand removing all choice of 2h currently, in inferno? If so, what can we do, to tune it back to where 2h's are just as interesting as 1h + offhand?"

I imagine while someone who might invest in a 1h would use those +damage jewelry to maximize each attack, someone who invests in a 2h may have other choices to increase attack speed of 2hs, which, tuned properly, would probably even most everything out.
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10/29/2011 11:29 PMPosted by Defenestrate
What steps are Blizzard taking to prevent weapon/build dimorphism?


Rather your question was extreme dimorphism, not just dimorphism, because that's what they actually wanted to create, both pros and cons to basing things off weapon speed.

Wyatt says at one point, that one hand + offhand is out damaging 2h. He's aware of it. Really, it's just fine tuning numbers to help minimize extreme dimorphism.

They want you to weigh the pros and cons of 1h+orb or shield vs 2h for your build. They can do that by making each have it's advantages and disadvantages. If at any point one outweighs the other to the point that you would be stupid to not make that choice, like the original question of "What incentives are there to having a fast weapon, as it seems to be better to have a slow weapon?", they'll re-tune the numbers to make sure it's a choice.

Currently the question Wyatt is probably asking himself, given his admittance of thinking 1h + offhand may be too dominant in inferno, is "Is 1h+ offhand removing all choice of 2h currently, in inferno? If so, what can we do, to tune it back to where 2h's are just as interesting as 1h + offhand?"

I imagine while someone who might invest in a 1h would use those +damage jewelry to maximize each attack, someone who invests in a 2h may have other choices to increase attack speed of 2hs, which, tuned properly, would probably even most everything out.


True, but I'm more worried about discrepancies within a build. You pick a couple of go-to skills, and they favor one kind of weapon. Then you want a couple of back up skills, but they favor the other kind of weapon. How bad is that trade-off? Should you never pick certain skills together b/c the weapon dimorphism makes it terrible? Doesn't that limit the number of builds?
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I was further thinking on this for DH/Monk/Barb...

The implication is (assuming all items equal level/quality)

1h + Shield = %100 Damage, + some armor & block + 2 sets of item bonuses, enchantments, and gems.
1h + 1h = %115 damage + 2 sets of item bonuses, enchancements, and gems.
2h = %120 damage + 1 set of item bonuses, enchancements, and gems.


It really seems like 2h are getting shafted...
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I was further thinking on this for DH/Monk/Barb...

The implication is (assuming all items equal level/quality)

1h + Shield = %100 Damage, + some armor & block + 2 sets of item bonuses, enchantments, and gems.
1h + 1h = %115 damage + 2 sets of item bonuses, enchancements, and gems.
2h = %120 damage + 1 set of item bonuses, enchancements, and gems.


It really seems like 2h are getting shafted...
2H Item bonuses : 1H Item bonuses most likely aren't going to be 1:1.
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10/29/2011 11:40 PMPosted by Cacophony
You pick a couple of go-to skills, and they favor one kind of weapon. Then you want a couple of back up skills, but they favor the other kind of weapon. How bad is that trade-off?


Really, what I got from the email is "it all equals out in the end."

But each one has advantages:

1 h fast weapon speed:
-Less overkill/spilled damage, you control where the damage you go much better for single target skills
-Better for procs like "effect on critical hits"
-Can be better if you use golden runes in signature spells and/or prodigy.
-Better faster killing as long as you don't use all your AP, where AP regeneration becomes an issue
-better possible defense if you choose a shield.
-better stats

2 h slow weapon speed
- Greater damage up front, which can actually mean faster kills if the damage you do is just right amount of damage with little overkill.
-better for longer fights an Arcane Power efficiency, where you're trying to maximize the damage you do with your "offensive" skills.
-A higher amount of your skills cast will be able to be "offensive" skills, and less will be "signature" spells. So if really want to focus on certain offensive spells, they have more weight here.
-Lesser peices of gear and lower quality gear can get your gear to get your high AP spending skills to do higher damage.
-less clicks - so you're less prone to developing carpal tunnel syndrome?

Each of these advantages when doing the math seems to imply there's an advantage to them, but not it's not a huge amount. For example if you go to the thread I referenced in the email I compared a Magic Missile + arcane orb caster w/ a theoretical .5 sec weapon speed weapon and a theoretical 1 sec weapon speed weapon. The difference over 15 seconds was 182.5 damage over approximately 2500 damage done. They were about the same, but the slower weapon did a lot more damage with arcane orb so it had more splash damage, while the faster did a lot more damage with magic missile, so it wouldn't do as much overkill damage when using magic missile. (Ultimately the slower would have been better vs clumped up targets, while the second vs highly spread out targets with lower health)

Which really makes it seem like more of a "Do you want your build to have the advantages of a 2h or advantages of a 1h + offhand" rather than "Do the skills you choose force you to pick one type of weapon over another?" I'm of the opinion now, given the light of Wyatt's email, that the differences aren't probably all that much, and you can choose whichever one you want based off what you see more valuable, rather than being compelled to use one or another because you wanted to use a certain skill.
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