Diablo® III

Of Weapon Speed, Wizards and One-Handers

I'm not sure how much stats are going to matter but wouldn't 2h be most effective if your moving a lot so that the spells one does get off hits harder? Unless, I suppose, one is moving so much they have to move or die faster than 2h allows.
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100 Human Mage
13225
04/30/2012 03:00 AMPosted by Morbidity
I'm not sure how much stats are going to matter but wouldn't 2h be most effective if your moving a lot so that the spells one does get off hits harder? Unless, I suppose, one is moving so much they have to move or die faster than 2h allows.


There are several cases I have found that seem to favor slow 2 handers over dual-wielding/oh counterparts (assuming equal DPS on the weapon):

1. As you mentioned, any time you're kiting. If you're on the run, or just poking at the mobs while grouping them up, a slow weapon will output higher damage as you're limited by opportunity rather than weapon speed. There's no real way to balance that though.

2. Any spell with a cooldown. Since you're limited by the cooldown rather than weapon speed, you will want that cooldown to hit hard. There's a large difference in how hard Wave of Force hits when using a 2 hander vs mh/orb with the same quality of gear. This could be offset by having the cooldown be affected by weapon speed. Exactly how much would have to depend on the individual spell so as not to imbalance the game.

3. DoTs (somewhat). Take the base ability of Witch Doctor's poison dart as an example. The DoT ticks for 40% weapon damage over 2 seconds. The DoT will tick harder, and at the same rate, with slower weapons. A faster weapon will allow you to apply the DoT to more enemies which will balance it out in multi target situations, but against a single target the slower weapon will get better DPS.

Some DoTs though will gain more by a slow weapon no matter what. Barbarian's rend benefits from a slow weapon in almost every possible way. It isn't spammed like poison dart can be because it applies the DoT to everything hit at once. Any target not hit will require a positional change that negates weapon speed.

There are a couple of ways this can be balanced. One would be to have the DoT tick faster based on weapon speed. Another would be to change the DoT to scale on weapon DPS rather than weapon damage.

4. Wizard and Witch Doctor spells that cost AP/large amounts of mana. The other classes have attacks that generate their resource. So while impale won't hit as hard with a fast weapon, you can use impale more often due to higher hatred generation. AP and mana on the other hand are on a time based regen.

For example, if I'm spamming arcane orb, at some point I will only be able to cast it once every few seconds while waiting for AP to regen. Now, with the Prodigy passive, this is balanced out a bit since it adds AP regen to signature spell casts but only time will tell if that's the ideal route to go with. I don't see a similar passive for witch doctors though. All of their mana regen passives increase the time based regen but nothing that literally adds mana per spell cast.

Now, obviously there will be some situations where a fast weapon will be better. A particularly strong one is any spammable ability with a CC element. Survivability will play a huge factor in the later part of the game and being able to slow/root monsters quickly should not be discounted. However, there's no telling if this will be enough to balance out the raw damage output that can be achieved with slow weapons.
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I thought of all of that which is why I believed 2h staffs were the clear choice for wizards. Spells like shock pulse would benefit from speed but I'm very meh about inaccurate spells like that. I do wonder about beam attacks though, do the ticks happen faster with 1h? Mana cost drain differently? Does it still hit when it first touches a target? Since its a constant, it seems like casting speed would be pointless except for the initial cast.

I used frost beam in the beta as a tap attack with a 2h staff based on the way it reads that the first target hit, blah blah blah. Figured, why not make every target the first target hit. This also let me save mana for arcane orb and tapping of frost beam would kill or almost kill any lesser mob so there seemed no reason to hold it. I didn't notice casting speed as a problem.
Edited by Morbidity#1111 on 4/30/2012 12:49 PM PDT
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Diablo 3 is a theorycrafter's nightmare.
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God, thanks Bashiok. Hopefully those threads will stop showing up now... but I doubt that.
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90 Gnome Priest
17635
06/03/2012 11:07 PMPosted by sme
God, thanks Bashiok. Hopefully those threads will stop showing up now... but I doubt that.


This post was made back in 2011.
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Yeah and it still applies.
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90 Gnome Priest
17635
06/03/2012 11:25 PMPosted by Sinned
Yeah and it still applies.


Perhaps. Or it could just as easily not.

These were all old posts too...

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5592453985
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100 Goblin Hunter
11600
Meteor is terrible and cost reductions apply per second not per cast (shoot 5 times a second but only save 3 ap a second with storm armor), there is no spillover dmg with disintigrate

2h wins
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Take 40 seconds to see a reason why 2H sucks.

http://youtu.be/O3hTSe58Bm0


+30 arcane on crit is absolutely AMAZING. This character is 54k prebuff, which isn't really incredible at all (there is a post by a 200k'er) as a pure number but the output is great.

Being able to infinitely cast makes more than a tiny difference, and I'm sad to see so many wizards going 2h.

Note that the tank in the video is 3k dps so he isn't adding any damage at all. The barbarian is ~80k, but the output is roughly equal when ramped up.
Edited by Locus#1601 on 6/24/2012 3:29 PM PDT
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Take 40 seconds to see a reason why 2H sucks.

http://youtu.be/O3hTSe58Bm0


+30 arcane on crit is absolutely AMAZING. This character is 54k prebuff, which isn't really incredible at all (there is a post by a 200k'er) as a pure number but the output is great.

Being able to infinitely cast makes more than a tiny difference, and I'm sad to see so many wizards going 2h.

Note that the tank in the video is 3k dps so he isn't adding any damage at all. The barbarian is ~80k, but the output is roughly equal when ramped up.


Right, because getting a setup that can infinitely cast arcane orbs is both easy and inexpensive.

Wait, no, it would likely cost you hundreds of dollars.

The cheapest route to AP efficient arcane orb casting is a slow 2h.
Edited by aimlessgun#1954 on 6/24/2012 6:46 PM PDT
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i must be a pessimest because the only thing I got out of that blue post was..

" we're actually currently considering a change to make them drain AP faster, to match the drain rate on all other skills

The most likely solution on this front will be to reduce the amount of +dmg found on rings and amulets to reel in the damage advantage of 1H+Orb."

Sigh...
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Guys, why do you keep arguing on this idiocy of a topic?

Source + OH base damage > 2H Base damage (for any given comparable weapons)

Source:
+8% Crit chance
Up to +150 INT
AP on Crit

Source + OH has faster cast rate, and about the same (OR MORE) damage per cast.
2H is only good if you can't afford a 1H+Sauce
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Source + OH has faster cast rate, and about the same (OR MORE) damage per cast.
2H is only good if you can't afford a 1H+Sauce


Unarguable, but I think most players are in that position. Very very few people are willing to put in the time or real money to get truly top of the line gear. If I gave you a budget, go gear your wizard for 30$, you'd probably get the best value by going 2h, and I think that's the situation of 95%+ players.
Edited by aimlessgun#1954 on 6/24/2012 10:13 PM PDT
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Source + OH has faster cast rate, and about the same (OR MORE) damage per cast.
2H is only good if you can't afford a 1H+Sauce


Unarguable, but I think most players are in that position. Very very few people are willing to put in the time or real money to get truly top of the line gear. If I gave you a budget, go gear your wizard for 30$, you'd probably get the best value by going 2h, and I think that's the situation of 95%+ players.


I'm not condemning people that use a 2h... Heck, i made my first runs with one...
Problem is people defending it past their real place in the game as is, and simply spreading lies like "they hit harder" or "you don't need AS to kite".

The way they word it someone who doesn't know better may understand that on equal mods, a 2h has more DPC, when it's not really the case (of course, a 1300 2H will beat a 650 1H + a mediocre OH).

Given the same ammount of GOLD, 2H's are better at the low end (and still, people started buying them a lot post 103 and wands seem to have dropped), and way worse at the high end (when i used my old 880 DPS 1H+source i needed *OVER 1450 DPS* on a 2H to beat it).

Given the same affixes, 1H+OH *always* wins, under any situation (the +Crit Chance alone on the offhand, even if it has no other mods at all, usually brings your DPC on par or surpassing any 2H).
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10/28/2011 01:56 PMPosted by Bashiok
I am currently leaning towards having it drain AP faster because


If they nerf Disintigrate (make it drain ap faster), I think it would be a final straw for me in giving up on this game. I know, I know, nobody gives a crap what I think. But I just wanted to say it anyway. I have absolutely had it with making the game less and less playable the way I want to play and forcing everyone into only one build, one gear type, and one strategy for inferno.

I mean really, haven't these morons at blizz figured out yet that nerfing everything that works is just pissing people off and making them leave? If they want to make improvements then make other builds more viable, so there are more choices...not less. Keep taking things away that people like and preventing them from playing the way they want to play and you will alienate more and more players until the game is dead (which they have been doing at a rapid pace already).

Why was inferno untested before release? Why was class builds not tested and balanced before release? Why do you think you are now improving the game by nerfing the crap out of everything and pissing off players group by group, nerf by nerf? Has blizzard really become this lost in how to make a game fun to play? I am still trying to hang on because there isn't many other games I enjoy right now, but you nerf my wizard anymore, and I am done. /endrant
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i must be a pessimest because the only thing I got out of that blue post was..

" we're actually currently considering a change to make them drain AP faster, to match the drain rate on all other skills

The most likely solution on this front will be to reduce the amount of +dmg found on rings and amulets to reel in the damage advantage of 1H+Orb."

Sigh...


Lol. This is all I saw as well. This game is making me very cynical.
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90 Gnome Priest
17635
How do people keep finding this really, really OLD post...? Can someone delete it already? >.<
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06/24/2012 10:50 PMPosted by Aristein
I am currently leaning towards having it drain AP faster because


If they nerf Disintigrate (make it drain ap faster), I think it would be a final straw for me in giving up on this game. I know, I know, nobody gives a crap what I think. But I just wanted to say it anyway. I have absolutely had it with making the game less and less playable the way I want to play and forcing everyone into only one build, one gear type, and one strategy for inferno.

I mean really, haven't these morons at blizz figured out yet that nerfing everything that works is just pissing people off and making them leave? If they want to make improvements then make other builds more viable, so there are more choices...not less. Keep taking things away that people like and preventing them from playing the way they want to play and you will alienate more and more players until the game is dead (which they have been doing at a rapid pace already).

Why was inferno untested before release? Why was class builds not tested and balanced before release? Why do you think you are now improving the game by nerfing the crap out of everything and pissing off players group by group, nerf by nerf? Has blizzard really become this lost in how to make a game fun to play? I am still trying to hang on because there isn't many other games I enjoy right now, but you nerf my wizard anymore, and I am done. /endrant


You just ranted about a change that was made over 6 months ago. Please think before you post, he's even talking about "if the game ships like this." which means it hadn't yet when he wrote all of this.

Someone please lock this thread to spare people who can't think some stress.
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Wait, no, it would likely cost you hundreds of dollars.

The cheapest route to AP efficient arcane orb casting is a slow 2h.


20% crit, 15% crit nova, >+24 Arc on Crit, and ~7% haste can fully support its mana expenditure during multi target engagements. That is in no way expensive. You will lose out on raw dps on the weapon, offhand, and pure int on the headpiece but while you lose out on the number on your paper doll you will likely come out ahead... gold piece for gold piece.

Why the obsession with arcane orb? It has terrible return on critical ramp for both arcane as well as cooldowns. Well placed star pacts can work just fine in a kite situation.

You can even use star pact as your "signature move" to generate mana for your arcane orb use.

Single target arcane stability can be remedied by blending in a signature for a while until you're more toward 35% crit, but once again that line isn't very hard to get to.
Edited by Locus#1601 on 6/25/2012 12:15 AM PDT
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