Diablo® III

Simplified Skill Tooltips

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Posts: 482
I just hope they keep the information of the damage an such in the tooltips. If they just outright remove what the damage an effects of the ability is that would ruin the game in my opinion. Of course I could be reading this all wrong and shouldn't be reading giant wall posts on a hour of sleep o.e
Posts: 16
I'd like to quote one of my favorite professors who teaches Thermodynamics "NUMBERS NOT ADJECTIVES!".

This should be a player's choice in the options menu.

Most people playing this game should have the ability to read and comprehend a definition of a skill. Simplifying this for those *cough* intelligent folks is simply conforming to the trend of 'Simple Gamers'. The world is not setup this way, why should games do this? I personally feel that doing this will hurt the game for most people.

Trying to place this in the 'real world' for me would be like having restaurants 'simplify' their menus. The outcome would be something like this:
-"1/2lb of our tasty 100% Prime Angus Beef topped with your choice of American, white cheddar, mozzarella or pepper jack cheese. $5.99"
-"Beef Burger, point to the cheese you want, makes you not hungry."

Applying this idea to Skills in a game would mean you have no idea how to quantify anything or rationalize cause and effect. I really feel we should steer away from this to HELP people get out of this simplified hole. Simplifying the skill descriptions may help new gamers not feel as overwhelmed when they first start, but once they have a basic understanding they are going to want numbers.

~~I'd like to randomly note that #'s is exactly how more and more people got into WoW. Looking at the game sitting on shelves over the years you never saw a golden sticker that said 'Hey, LOTS of people play this!' and then four years later 'Hey, NOW EVEN MORE people play this!'. That golden sticker had NUMBERS!.. I felt it was a well placed example. Oh and then WoW got really simple as time went on; I was completely baffled when a friend convinced me to try it again. All I had to do was click a button and hang out in town before POOF 'here are some random people that are also bored, do something in this dungeon that you didn't even walk to.'~~
Okay okay wayyyy off topic.

My suggestion as far as skills for pvp vs. pve and for simple vs. detailed.

simple vs detailed: give a game option.

pvp vs pve: look at how Guild Wars does this - skills have numbers for pve and [numbers] for how they change in pvp as part of the description. The numbers should also actively change with in your tooltip based on gear, stats etc.. 'I use this sword i get 23dmg, i use this sword i get 26dmg'

If the information is not placed IN the game people will spend less time IN the game and more time on a website with no direct feedback based on their character/gear/stats...

I could go on with examples, and I know nothing is concrete but I ask that this please become an option at some point.

I'd like to note that I caught wind of this through 'Force Strategy Gaming' on their weekly diablocast. THANK YOU! I otherwise wouldn't have had the chance to give..
-my2cents
Edited by Bill on 12/10/2011 9:24 PM PST
Posts: 83
I'm going out on a limb here cause I'm honestly unfamiliar with most of the Diablo 3 mechanics but don't most skills base their effects primarily off weapon damage? If so then the 'skill' tooltips should remain fairly simple. A tooltip is intended to be used at a glance, and should absolutely remain as brief as possible. When more info is required I think a lore book is the most effective way to analyze skill effects. Seems to me the people complaining about simplified tooltips aren't quite grasping their purpose.
Posts: 111
In another game, i forget which, when they introduced "simplified tooltips," they did it in a way that catered to both "grandma" players and normal players.

They would show the simple version of the tooltip when you mouse over the skill, but if you held down shift, it would show the old extended version of the tooltip, with details of how much damage it actually does or the duriations and whatnot.

Please use something like that for diablo 3. Im generally not a super hardcore player, but I, like most of the people here, care to look at the numbers behind each skill and pick accordingly, even if it doesnt make all the difference in the world.

I would really prefer not to have to tab out and go to some elitist site to look up numbers when im playing a game thats supposed to be as streamlined and accessable as diablo.
85 Orc Death Knight
9810
Posts: 17
You are planning to put the total DPS for spells/abilities in somewhere aren't you bliz? (based on the equipped weapon I mean)

I ask because I hear the weapon damage percent can change based on the class/weapon/spell combination, and it would be very annoying to have to consult a spreadsheet or something to see if a given weapon is actually an upgrade for a given spell/ability.

(BTW do things like life leech on weapons affect spells?)
Edited by Nightyniight on 12/11/2011 11:44 PM PST
Community Manager
Posts: 3,387
Just a few counter points to some of the discussions this has raised:

Simple tooltips benefit almost everyone. Just because they may not benefit you, they'll indirectly benefit you by helping non-gamers get into the game. Right now most of us are only thinking about when we play the game, but when the game is released, or quite possibly years down the road, you may want to be able to teach your dad, your daughter, your significant other to play. Simplified tooltips will certainly help when you walk away and they're trying to learn to play for themselves. And we can always hope they put stuff up on the auction house for way less than its worth! Mwahahahaa.

The in-game reference guide/book idea for skill and game information has a number of UI issues, but as a player of the game it's not a great solution because:
  • You're not always in-game. More often than not when you're dissecting a skill at a massive level of detail you're on a website/forum discussing things, or you've got an excel spreadsheet open. Or you're getting in some extra Diablo time while at a friend's place. Or you're at work on your lunch break.
  • A web page lets us present far more organized detail than an in-game book would allow (without ceasing to look like a web browser embedded in a book which would just look silly). You want tick rates, scaling formulas, proc interactoins, etc.
  • A web site allows us to provide the most timely information. If questions come up on the forums, we make a hotfix, we find errors, or come across more information we'd like to pass along, we can get that information out to players immediately. If it was in-game it would require a patch.
Posts: 355
So... can we expect some significant resources to be invested into maintaining a site like this?

The Arreat Summit struck me as a labor of love, but somewhat unappreciated by the Blizzardy powers that be. (There still is no good explanation of D2's poison damage on there, in my opinion.)
12/12/2011 10:14 AMPosted by Bashiok


I would just hope things like skill does 125% weapon damage stay in the simplified tooltip... how are we supposed to know which skill is stronger otherwise ?

Personnally I think casual players would like to know about their strong abilities instead of wandering around not understanding why they do close to no dmg in inferno (if they choose a bad set of skills). I also don't think the casual player would like to follow any kind of website to know how the game works...

For exemple, I play Call of duty sometimes, I never visited their website to know anything about the game, and I don't want to. We don't need to know what the weapon damage in Call of duty is because there are a lot of variation between weapons and it's easy to get a feeling of which one is better for us. On the other hand, while playing Diablo, what's the difference between a frost nove and a fire nova ? (fictive skills) A 10-15% dmg difference would be hard to notice between the two skills but it can also mean to kill or not to kill in Diablo 3..

My thoughts...
Sorry if I repeat something that has been said

*Edit* moar text
╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Diablo 3 system isn't deep enough to allow removal of numbers, why would someone who understand the stats on an item NOT understand the stats on a skill ??? Items are way more complicated than skills, I get lost all the time in all these stats, please change these also when you change the skill descriptions.... just kidding about not understanding but it's all true
Edited by Underwear on 12/12/2011 11:00 AM PST
Posts: 674
There's a difference between mathematically crunching numbers and simply wanting to see how much damage a move does. If the tooltips are anything like the "simple wow tooltips" players will read "do this spell as an opener" and won't actually think of ways to use the move elsewhere.
Your removing avenues of creativity by simply stating a moves purpose which will prevent some players from that feeling of discovering a unique strategy.
Posts: 44
Am I the only one who thinks the tooltips are already incredibly simple. They are not that complicated currently as is. Seems like Blizzard and everyone else is just making casuals and other beginner gamers look like retards. People are not that stupid and in a time when even our grandmothers play Angry Birds, people can READ and figure !@#$ out.

I am all down for rewording and making the tooltips more clear and consistent but leaving out vital information for the sake of trying to make it playable by 3 year old babies just seems like trying a little too hard.
Posts: 674
Am I the only one who thinks the tooltips are already incredibly simple. They are not that complicated currently as is. Seems like Blizzard and everyone else is just making casuals and other beginner gamers look like retards. People are not that stupid and in a time when even our grandmothers play Angry Birds, people can READ and figure !@#$ out.

I am all down for rewording and making the tooltips more clear and consistent but leaving out vital information for the sake of trying to make it playable by 3 year old babies just seems like trying a little too hard.

Minus some of the language you used, /agree. The game is most likely rated 'M' after all... Basic P.E.M.D.A.S. operations should be known by age 17.
Posts: 250
12/12/2011 10:14 AMPosted by Bashiok
Simple tooltips benefit almost everyone.


No, they don't. It comes down to the point where you dumb down the tooltip so much that it doesn't provide any discerning information at all, to anyone. This doesn't help me. This doesn't help new players. This doesn't help non-gamers. This doesn't help anyone.

I'll expand on what I'm talking about.

Lets say Diablo 3 is a car dealership. Tooltips are the salesmen. The way you're going with tooltips we get a scenario like this.

"Advanced Salesman" can and will tell you all about every car. The colour, the make and model, all the way down to the VIN number. He'll give you all the stats, tell you details on speed, acceleration, handling, even fuel efficiency. He'll tell you where to go to get it serviced, hell he could teach you to service it yourself.

You guys want this guy fired, he's not around the car lot anymore, but you've given him a consulting job on some website. Well we too want him on a website, but we also want him at least in some lesser form in the car lot. In a corner somewhere, at least giving us a summary of "advanced info"

Next we have the "Normal Salesman", he'll tell you the colour, the make and model. That's about it. He's virtually useless to any car enthusiast. He may have some use to laymen, but lets be honest can they really know what they're driving with just that? They don't really know anything that could differentiate the cars to them in a meaningful way. I know this is a Honda Accord and that is a Mustang Fastback, but why should I drive this one over that one, or that one over this one? I don't really know, I'm not a car enthusiast :/ (fastback ftw). They can probably manage to drive the car without road rage for a while but how far can they really go?

Then we have the "Simplified Salesman", he'll tell you what colour it is. ....


This is the impression I, and many others, are getting. (I feel comfortable saying "and many others" because for once in the history of the universe we have agreement on the forums about this) Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's way off and we have 5 consistent pages of people who are all way off. However, there are plenty of people with access to "pre-nerf" tooltips saying they are plenty simply and yet "normal" will be even simpler so I'd say we can extrapolate from there what EVEN SIMPLER would be like.

12/12/2011 10:14 AMPosted by Bashiok
Just because they may not benefit you, they'll indirectly benefit you by helping non-gamers get into the game. Right now most of us are only thinking about when we play the game, but when the game is released, or quite possibly years down the road, you may want to be able to teach your dad, your daughter, your significant other to play. Simplified tooltips will certainly help when you walk away and they're trying to learn to play for themselves. And we can always hope they put stuff up on the auction house for way less than its worth! Mwahahahaa.


Read above, that is meant to be from the point of view of these non-gamers you're catering your game to. Hell I'll know what these skills do just from the name in most instances, but they wont. Taking away "too much" info can actually hurt them more than me.

12/12/2011 10:14 AMPosted by Bashiok
You're not always in-game. More often than not when you're dissecting a skill at a massive level of detail you're on a website/forum discussing things, or you've got an excel spreadsheet open. Or you're getting in some extra Diablo time while at a friend's place. Or you're at work on your lunch break.


You can't have a website for out of game and for extreme detailed and expanded info, while having a slightly less expanded but still "advanced" guide ingame because ....? What exactly is the reason it has to be one or the other ?
We don't want everything expanded ingame (well some do). Anything I'd dissect with a spreadsheet is fair to leave out of game. But we still want more than whats being offered up to us as "Normal" to be ingame. We are OK if its concise, non-expanded, numbers and stats. But we do not want to HAVE to tab out every new skill. Give us SOMETHING to look at so we can keep playing and we will dissect the mountains of data on the website at a later stage when we're finished our session of hacking and slashing.

A web page lets us present far more organized detail than an in-game book would allow (without ceasing to look like a web browser embedded in a book which would just look silly). You want tick rates, scaling formulas, proc interactoins, etc.


As I said above, you don't have to put a mirror of info on both website and ingame. More expanded details on website. Concise stats on ingame guide. Please don't tell me you can't make it look pretty.

12/12/2011 10:14 AMPosted by Bashiok
A web site allows us to provide the most timely information. If questions come up on the forums, we make a hotfix, we find errors, or come across more information we'd like to pass along, we can get that information out to players immediately. If it was in-game it would require a patch.


All the ingame guide info should be present on the website (but maybe not the other way around). Preeetty sure it'll be easy to spot when something doesn't match up. And you still get all your feedback from the website stat gurus (who cry OP every 3 seconds once pvp is live). Please don't tell me changing a few numbers to reflect the website will require a huge patch taking weeks to deploy.
Also, if there is a mistake, it's likely through dissemination of information, to become widely known very quickly. So it really shouldn't be a problem until a small patch to fix it can be deployed (however long that takes).


At the end of the day, if you've already got the info and are planning to put it on a website, there's no reason you can't give us a summary of it ingame. Something a bit more advanced than what you're calling "Normal" will do. And I'm not even going to start on how this simplification implies non-gamers are uneducated and can't do simple mathematics.
Posts: 46
I still think that adding an option in Interface for advanced Tooltips would be a good decision. It would provide information for those who would like to see the numbers in game. By advanced tooltips, I mean the way it is currently in the Beta and not the way it is in Arreat Summit that would be too much info for a tooltip. Just have simplified tooltips be the original setting in game and then allow the player to choose advanced if they like. You could still have an Arreat summit like website to provide full info as well.
Edited by FirstJohn on 12/12/2011 1:22 PM PST
Posts: 5,892
Well I think we need to see one of these simplified tooltips to really understand what they are identifying as simplier. Does simple mean showing how much damage a spell does instead of showing percent of weapon damage unless you're looking at that info on the site? I would like that simplification.

Well sort of. Now that I think about it. Knowing a percentage gives me more constant information. We really do just need to wait to see what "simplified" means.
I believe blizzard thinks the world is full of unintelligent people.

However Blizzard must acknowledge that people are advancing faster than they think, I know a 7 year old who has played and "beat final fantasy 7" in 3 days with ease, and hell my grandmother plays "Mike Tyson's Punch Out" on the Wii. Just face it people are not as gullible and simple as they used to be back in the 1970's -1980's.

We are very intelligent!

I would like to have in-game tooltips with the option to have an advanced view.
100 Human Priest
17865
Posts: 732
I don't like simple tooltips. They tell the person almost nothing about the skill.


2-3 years down the road when I play again, I can't be sure the resources are gonna be available/current and I'll have to rely on the game's information to play well. I can't do that if the tool tips read " this is a strong attack " on 5 different skills; it's worthless.


Whether something does 137% damage or 125% damage - I need to know - that is straight forward and easy to understand.
Posts: 250
Well I think we need to see one of these simplified tooltips to really understand what they are identifying as simplier. Does simple mean showing how much damage a spell does instead of showing percent of weapon damage unless you're looking at that info on the site? I would like that simplification.

Well sort of. Now that I think about it. Knowing a percentage gives me more constant information. We really do just need to wait to see what "simplified" means.


Well they said normal would simpler than what we have now and "simplified" would have no numbers at all.
So if "simplified" has no numbers, we can infer that Blizzards definition of simplifying things means decreasing info/numbers in-place of more generalized wording. Eg, Cleave : attacks in a frontal arc.
Just a few counter points to some of the discussions this has raised:

Simple tooltips benefit almost everyone. Just because they may not benefit you, they'll indirectly benefit you by helping non-gamers get into the game. Right now most of us are only thinking about when we play the game, but when the game is released, or quite possibly years down the road, you may want to be able to teach your dad, your daughter, your significant other to play. Simplified tooltips will certainly help when you walk away and they're trying to learn to play for themselves. And we can always hope they put stuff up on the auction house for way less than its worth! Mwahahahaa.


That makes no sense. If they are useless for me for figuring out how to use powers, they are useless for everyone.

I also find it insulting that you think my dad, daughter, etc. are morons.
Edited by Kobu on 12/12/2011 2:32 PM PST
Posts: 87
Can we have an example of how simple exactly a simplified tooltip is? I don't have the beta, but looking at the skill definitions on the online calculator, they seem pretty simple to me already... How simple are we talking about here?

No numbers at all simple? "Bash: A strong attack with a knockback" simple?

If that's the case, then we'll all be forced to alt+tab, looking for answers while playing the game... That hardly seems like a good gameplay experience to me...
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