Diablo® III

Why aren't games designed like doom levels?

Posts: 804
Looking back over my years of gaming, I think the most satisfying sense of exploration came from games like doom, super mario and jedi outcast.

How do I get there?
In a lot of doom levels, you can look out of a window and see a special item like the chainsaw but you have to explore the map the find out how to get to it. Or In the earlier final fantasy games where you could see a treasure chest but had to traverse a maze like environment to get to it. They always added that extra little bit to the level design. It never seemed like a point a to point b type thing.

Secrets
Then there is things like the secret doors in doom levels which can lead to lots of epic loot. Or when you go down a pipe in Super Mario and find lots of coins. It can be really satisfying and rewarding when you are surprised by these little secrets. It makes the game more fun.

It also means that when you replay the game, you still have new things to find in the level and it was just cool to know that I probably walked past 10 secret doors because this game is awesome.

Puzzles
Playing skyrim I noticed that when you take a puzzle at face value, it kind of sucks, but if you look at games like jedi outcast or legend of zelda, the puzzle is integrated into the level. So you are not just going from point a to point b, you are going to a number of different rooms to solve a greater puzzle, and maybe in those lesser rooms are other puzzles.

Of course some people don't like it and some people are morons, but it makes things so satisfying, well for me anyway. I'm not saying that all games should have these, or that they should have these on every level, but so often it seems that something is missing from the level design.

Platforming
One of my favorite things to do in any mmo or open world game is to try and get on top of buildings. Why? I don't know, its just fun. Even just very subtle platforming elements can intrigue me. For example, in doom levels you have moving platforms which go up and down.

Just recently I was playing the swtor beta and they had these platforms which go up to transport you to other areas of the map. Why is there not more of this sort of thing? Why even have a jump button if there is no platforming?

Even having like a bunch of tree stumps or a broken tree to jump on while you are killing 15 wolves, can make exploration more fun and give the game depth.

Branching Pathways
This subject is kind of conflicting. On one hand you have a maze of death which isn't fun, and on the other hand you have call of linear-warfare 3. I guess it all comes down to moderation and how well the level leads the player to the end.

I know games like call of duty are designed to be more like a movie with a linear path with big set pieces but then look at the massive failure of duke nukem. That game was pretty linear as well, but its predecessors were definitely not.

If there is going to be little branching, there has to be a good reason for it. Otherwise it becomes boring, you need a vertical element, multiple interconnecting rooms, dead ends, secrets or puzzles.



So how does this all relate to diablo 3?
Well that is for you to tell me. So far the game seems linear but that is because it is mainly the tutorial area we are playing in. Some things to conciser are how randomization will play its part in level design and of course blizzards creation of the greatest easter egg known to man.

http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/The_Secret_Cow_Level
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Posts: 2,363

How do I get there?
In a lot of doom levels, you can look out of a window and see a special item like the chainsaw but you have to explore the map the find out how to get to it. Or In the earlier final fantasy games where you could see a treasure chest but had to traverse a maze like environment to get to it. They always added that extra little bit to the level design. It never seemed like a point a to point b type thing.

Secrets
Then there is things like the secret doors in doom levels which can lead to lots of epic loot. Or when you go down a pipe in Super Mario and find lots of coins. It can be really satisfying and rewarding when you are surprised by these little secrets. It makes the game more fun.

It also means that when you replay the game, you still have new things to find in the level and it was just cool to know that I probably walked past 10 secret doors because this game is awesome.



+1 I loved these moments too.

I'm not too worried about how this is being implemented in the game though.
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Posts: 8,720
It doesn't work terribly well from the Diablo isometric perspective, and it doesn't work very well with randomized dungeons, and it doesn't work very well when playing with groups of other. When you first go through a doom level, yes. Absolutely. that was awesome. But imagine you're going through the doom level for the 20th time. You've already learned the secrets a million years ago because you play with other people all the time, and what you didn't find yourself, you just slowly picked up on from following other guys around. And now it's just a race to hit up all the secret chests. That's the only thing worth getting anyways. Then quit the game and make a new one.

Basically, what it comes down to is, Doom and Diablo are fantastically different games, and both id and Blizzard are masters of their trade, and it shows.
Edited by Static on 12/7/2011 1:36 AM PST
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Posts: 901
Like Static said, Blizzard is making the correct decision for their type of game. In some video Jay Wilson or someone else stated that they did consider branching play, but it was too difficult to implement or whatever.

Also, if you haven't played the Myst series of PC games, I highly recommend them. It sounds like you would highly enjoy them.
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85 Goblin Hunter
990
Posts: 57
Ew leave Doom out of this. Go play that trash if thats what you want. Leave isometric gameplay alone please.
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Here's an interesting fact. Jay Wilson, "Mad Overseer" of the Diablo 3 team, got started in Game Development by making custom levels in Doom. Maybe there's more from that game in Diablo 3 than you think.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9100
Posts: 241
12/07/2011 10:33 AMPosted by Gidgit
Ew leave Doom out of this. Go play that trash if thats what you want. Leave isometric gameplay alone please.


Doom is definitely not trash. Trash talkers are trash though.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9100
Posts: 241
BTW, nothing scared the !@#$ out of me more than opening a door and hearing a Revenant scream at you.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
Posts: 758
12/07/2011 10:33 AMPosted by Gidgit
Ew leave Doom out of this. Go play that trash if thats what you want. Leave isometric gameplay alone please.



Sir..... Doom is one of the great all time video game classics.
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Posts: 714
haha first time i played doom... on the jaguar 64 haha some of you guys probably dont know what that even is.
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Posts: 1,421
doom and duke nukem 3d beat the crap out of linear warfare. So sad what duke 4 ever turned out to be.
Im defnitely looking forward for secret rooms on diablo 3. There were some on jail level in diablo 2, it can definitely work on diablo randomized dungeons.
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Edited for spam.
Edited by Jacka on 3/18/2012 4:18 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
6380
Posts: 2,583
I've heard there is going to be... Randomized events, which increase in occurrence as you progress into the harder difficulties.

I believe there is already some of these in the Beta as well.
There are. Most people by now are familiar with the random quests like the jar of souls but there are plenty of smaller mini-events that happen and mini-dungeons that pop up.

For example sometimes in one area there will be a small pile of bodies and when you get near them the ground will glow and erupt with fog and zombies. In another you might come across a chest surrounded by four panels in the floor. When you approach it, the chest descends into the floor and four skeleton spawning totems rise up out of the floor and you have to destroy them before the chest will reappear.

So yes, there are all sorts of fun little random events even in the little bit we get in the beta. Exploration and discovery are alive and well in Diablo III and it will take quite a while before you run out of new things to see. (I've only seen that chest once so far in quite a few play-throughs of the same content.)
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Posts: 1,120
One of my favorite pictures explaining the evolution of gaming.

http://memearchive.net/memerial.net/1371/fps-map-design.jpg

But in all seriousness, this doesn't apply here as Diablo maps are randomized, so you could potentially get either one of those at any given time.
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Posts: 804
Now that I think about it, I remember seeing the barbarian jump over a hole in the floor with leap during that long gameplay video with jay wilson narrating.

I hope there is more stuff like that, but I bet that was just put in there to showcase the ability.
Edited by eRRa on 12/8/2011 7:12 AM PST
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