Diablo® III

Character Customization Explained - Updated!!

This is a really great post. It saddens me to see that people are still trying to say that no permanent skillpoints/attributes means the game is "catering to casuals".

A game's difficulty should be defined by how difficult its gameplay is, not how much preplanning using spreadsheets/fan sites/wikis is required before you start the game. A skillful gamer and a knowledgeble gamer are two different things, and tbh I'd say only skillful gamers should fall into the hardcore basket. Anyone can read a few wikis or operate a spreadsheet, but are fools if they think it makes them a better gamer. Only hardcore gamers can kite like a boss against dozens of champion demons with multiple affixes. As long as that kind of gameplay remains in the game, truly hardcore gamers will be satisfied.

Permanence is nothing but a poor tool to artificially increase the lifetime of a game; forcing people to start from scratch because they didn't put the required study in before logging into the game is poor game design. Pure and simple. There's nothing fun about losing a week of gameplay from a simple mistake. There's nothing clever about punishing people for not utilising out of game resources. Its a cheap trick that hacks can use to make their game seem difficult that stifles innovation and promotes cookie cutter builds.

At the end of the day, theorycrafting is still relevant; there are terrible builds that inattentive users could fall into. The only difference is that upon realising this you don't go "damn, there goes a week of work! I better start a new character and google a cookie cutter build!" you go "damn, maybe if I change things around I can figure out a way to make this work."
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12/31/2011 10:27 AMPosted by Vengaurd
Gemcrafting is the new way in which a player may give themselves stat points.


Please give me these points on level up rather than as drops.

the change in the stats themselves fixed the Shift+Vit problem not the change in the point buy system.

If you were looking for incremental damage gains like skill points, this is another area where the runestone system shines! There are 7 levels of runestone.


except that only 1 level of runestones will drop on an entire difficulty (except inferno) so these incremental gains will be exceptionally rare.


its literally the same thing. 2 things are gone. 1: its not on level, but more random - off drops 2: you dont click a button to increase ur stats, you polish ur gear

everything else is there in different ways. you just dont like change if u cant accept that
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I don't have any problems with the stats, skills, and items in terms of customization. I'm happy with D2, I'm happy with D3, I don't really care about that at all.

My grief is with the lack of character development permanence. In D2, decisions made by the player were final and PERMANENT, giving the player complete control and satisfaction over their character as they played through the game. In D3, there are absolutely NO permanent choices that can be made when developing your character. Since every skill selection, rune selection, and item selection made by the player can be reversed 100%, I feel zero satisfaction when selecting items or abilities. Since they decided to abandon the more rigid structure of D2 in lieu of the happy-go-lucky WoW structure, I feel betrayed as a long-time Diablo 2 player and fan.

I just don't understand why they had to abandon it completely? Could they not strike a balance between permanent decisions and flexible ones? Could the players not make some decisions throughout the game that actually stand the test of time and shape their character, permanently, while also allowing a degree of flexibility?


not really, like a post right above ur said, permanance acts as a prison, no matter how small. the choice is choice/experimentation/not looking things up OR permanance/rerolling/careful calculating before deciding

but let me be clear, i assure you, there are plenty of careful decisions youll hafta make. you havent even played beta im guessing, no offense... because even in the beta you have several strong choices you hafta make right away, not only in ur skills, but what gear stats ur going for... and thats without MANY of the systems and choices at play
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The problem is there are no more "caster themed" or "physical themed" items anymore. Every item now (except for class specific) is just "general themed" for everyone to use. That's just bland.

You say bland, I say balanced. How many times did you find an AMAZING caster type item with %ED instead of FCR? Now the item can still be amazing across all classes because ED affects skillpower for casters (instead of just melee).


so do i (say its balanced), but id like to add, also, that a witch doctor daggar is going to have things like +200% dmg for witch doctors only on it, making that item obviously better than an equally good weapon for the barb or monk

not to mention the stats are mostly going to be orientated to caster-like stats most of the time (the static ones)
Edited by Honor on 1/1/2012 3:00 PM PST
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01/01/2012 01:39 PMPosted by Dontinquire
SURE, no one care the weapon type but the basic damage it can provide, i can imagine a wizard and a barbarian use the same weapon type, for now most likely a magic mace... i DO hope the class-specified weapon REALLY mean something in the future release.

They have in fact stated that weapon speed will affect cast rate. So you will likely not see many casters running around with 2 handed maces (although it is possible and probably even viable) simply because they want the mobility FCR provides.

@Honor. The focus of the post was not explaining the systems D3 offers. It is to correlate these systems and do side by side comparisons for players. There are numerous posts and videos describing the new gold sinks and new economy, I just wanted to draw a line between the two games to illustrate how a system in D2 (Stat allocation) has been transferred into D3 (Gem crafting). When I mentioned enchanting, yes it has other effects but that's why I labeled it as an extension of stat allocation. Even with 0 points from enchants you still get more to play with than D2. Thanks for the feedback.


these posts were meant to inform, correct? i stated many of the things i did, because without addressing them, ur still leaving people relatively misinformed on some of the subjects

mentioning these things... id have to ask you to reconsider please

(because by not doing so, because of how official ur post is, can lead some to assume/infer the system doesnt include these things, or does things differently depending on the subject)

especially when you mention gold sinks and only mention one of them and other such cases... i find it shocking youd make such a well thought out post and think every single one of my suggestions were not aplicable


tho... i spose theyll get the information by reading further into the thread anyways... but... id rather them get it from you, in the places they should be, so they arent left wondering about it, and it will come off with higher reguard

again, i bring this up because ur post in near perfect, and almost fully informative for a one stop shop, i just see areas i feel like it could be more complete. i also, just want to help keep them informed, please help me help you
Edited by Honor on 1/1/2012 4:43 PM PST
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Posts: 2,720
I for one loved how you had to figure nearly every little thing out on your own in diablo 2 either by experimenting or by looking up the extensive database that is Arreat Summit. Even looking through that site was an overwhelming task if you havent learned a thing or two about the game beforehand.

Now we have blizzard holding our hands the entire way through the game, just like WoW. I can understand the tooltips or the in-game database explaining exeactly what things do and how they can effect your character, but the removal of stat points and skill points on level really just make every character nearly the same. The only differance between characters is the gear they use and their choice of 6 skills and 3 passive abilities.

Now lets face it, were all going to be the same! classes are going to be the only thing that sets you appart and how long you've been putting work into your character. I like being rewarded for working hard on a character, dont get me wrong, but when my lvl 10 barb teams up with another lvl 10 barb and were doing the exact same things, how can someone distinguish me from him?

Picture this also: Im a lvl 40 barb starting hell mode with another level 40 barb. I have a certain set of skills that I like to use, and I'm proud of myself for coming up with the combination. Im clearly killing more mobs than the other barb, as his current choice of skills isnt quite up to par with mine. What does he do? he mimics my skills, INSTANTLY. No hard work needed, he just has to recognize my skills by seeing them. Then what do we have? two of the same exact barbs.

This game seems to have turned super casual, and is more of a top view WoW on another planet with different lore. I Like WoW, but in much different ways than I like the diablo franchise. I will most defenately own this game and play it extensively, but I already know that it will not compare to the impact that diablo 2 had on my gaming career.

Im fine with that, Im just tired of seeing all these WoW players rant on and on about how the game needs these features when most of you people clearly are not diablo players.
Edited by CamboSlack on 1/1/2012 2:26 PM PST
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I for one loved how you had to figure nearly every little thing out on your own in diablo 2 either by experimenting or by looking up the extensive database that is Arreat Summit. Even looking through that site was an overwhelming task if you havent learned a thing or two about the game beforehand.

Now we have blizzard holding our hands the entire way through the game, just like WoW. I can understand the tooltips or the in-game database explaining exeactly what things do and how they can effect your character, but the removal of stat points and skill points on level really just make every character nearly the same. The only differance between characters is the gear they use and their choice of 6 skills and 3 passive abilities.

Now lets face it, were all going to be the same! classes are going to be the only thing that sets you appart and how long you've been putting work into your character. I like being rewarded for working hard on a character, dont get me wrong, but when my lvl 10 barb teams up with another lvl 10 barb and were doing the exact same things, how can someone distinguish me from him?

Picture this also: Im a lvl 40 barb starting hell mode with another level 40 barb. I have a certain set of skills that I like to use, and I'm proud of myself for coming up with the combination. Im clearly killing more mobs than the other barb, as his current choice of skills isnt quite up to par with mine. What does he do? he mimics my skills, INSTANTLY. No hard work needed, he just has to recognize my skills by seeing them. Then what do we have? two of the same exact barbs.

This game seems to have turned super casual, and is more of a top view WoW on another planet with different lore. I Like WoW, but in much different ways than I like the diablo franchise. I will most defenately own this game and play it extensively, but I already know that it will not compare to the impact that diablo 2 had on my gaming career.

Im fine with that, Im just tired of seeing all these WoW players rant on and on about how the game needs these features when most of you people clearly are not diablo players.


there are 2 distinct differences.

1: a naked d2 character and a naked d3 character are going to be different in that the d2 character has most of his customization still in play naked. the difference is that the diablo 3 character needs to have his runes/skills/gear/enchants/gems chosen to have his customizations in play

but since we are all going to be wearing gear when fighting, the difference is negligable

2: a lot of the customization we have in d3 doesnt come form leveling up, but it is all still there and thensome

id ask you to please carefully read all of the OPs posts in this thread
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Posts: 599
Honor, you really can't change the mind of somebody like the person you quoted. His convictions are far too rigid.
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01/01/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Burnzor
Honor, you really can't change the mind of somebody like the person you quoted. His convictions are far too rigid.


i always find worth in trying... to a point =/
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Simply put, you're wrong.

All we get is runes that simply change abilities and you can do it at any time like changing a pair of shoes, it isn't even a real build.

That is all you get, from 1 to 60 in terms of character progressional customization.

The current system distributes your points for you, and gives you your abilities you will be placing a rune in.

That is just pure laziness if I have ever seen it.

There was no improvement from Diablo 2, they didn't rewrite any formula or try to improve it at all, they REMOVED customization systems entirely and put in a system that is going to do it for you. Where we will be able to simply swap out skills like changing an old pair of socks without any sort of real build at all.

No. Leveling customization progression needs to be changed.

And that's all I'm going to say here.

Back to the feedback beta section I go.


im pretty sure i can safely assume you didnt read anything past the title
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Posts: 1,093
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Simply put, you're wrong.

All we get is runes that simply change abilities and you can do it at any time like changing a pair of shoes, it isn't even a real build.

That is all you get, from 1 to 60 in terms of character progressional customization.

The current system distributes your points for you, and gives you your abilities you will be placing a rune in.

That is just pure laziness if I have ever seen it.

There was no improvement from Diablo 2, they didn't rewrite any formula or try to improve it at all, they REMOVED customization systems entirely and put in a system that is going to do it for you. Where we will be able to simply swap out skills like changing an old pair of socks without any sort of real build at all.

No. Leveling customization progression needs to be changed.

And that's all I'm going to say here.

Back to the feedback beta section I go.


The words of a player who gives feedback without understanding what he's talking about. I sincerely hope Blizzard doesn't listen to anything you have to say.
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im pretty sure i can safely assume you didnt read anything past the title


Didn't have to. I know everything there is to know about diablo 3 that's been allowed for the public, I play D2 still to this day, I can go on my level 90's right now if you want.

There is no character progressional customization, other than changing an ability.

None. Zip. Nada.


read it


dont you find it odd i knew you didnt read it? that means i found glaring errors apparent in ur argument that the OP directly talks about, in great detail
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Posts: 102


im pretty sure i can safely assume you didnt read anything past the title


Didn't have to. I know everything there is to know about diablo 3 that's been allowed for the public, I play D2 still to this day, I can go on my level 90's right now if you want.

There is no character progressional customization, other than changing an ability.

None. Zip. Nada.

Artisians have absolutely nothing at all to do with customizing level progression. The person took an argument, and tried to turn it on its head. Ridiculously absurd. Going back to the beta feedback forum now. Peace.


In other words, you enjoyed hitting dead ends until someone posted the perfect build online.
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Posts: 1,542


im pretty sure i can safely assume you didnt read anything past the title


Didn't have to. I know everything there is to know about diablo 3 that's been allowed for the public, I play D2 still to this day, I can go on my level 90's right now if you want.
.


lol you didnt even read the post, and your blabbering about a system you know nothing about? Your textbook definition of ignorant.
Edited by ACPRO on 1/1/2012 3:18 PM PST
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Thanks OP. Well written and thought out. ignore the (surprisingly few) naysayers. Of course I guess when you write an excellent post like this it's hard to refute it. Awesome job!
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Posts: 964
(because by not doing so, because of how official ur post is, can lead some to assume/infer the system doesnt include these things, or does things differently depending on the subject)


This post is not officially sanctioned by Blizzard in any way. Keep in mind that I've written 9,000 words in these posts as well. I can't cover everything, even if I could it would take quite a long time. My purpose is set out very clearly. I put side by side comparisons from Diablo 2 game systems to Diablo 3 game systems. The intent was to raise awareness from players who did not understand that customization exists in Diablo 3. The largest foundation of their argument was missing skill and stat point allocation. I explained as concisely as possible why this is a logical fallacy. I very sincerely considered writing a lot more in detail about several other things.

One of the things I may in fact go back and add is a piece on randomization. Randomization offers incentive for continual replay. Both experiencing random encounters, getting random stats with random values, random item drops, random level configurations, etc. Newer games that fail to offer random elements typically have diminished replay value.

You mentioned gold sinks in your post. Jay Wilson has given us quite a lot of information on the gold sinks in the game, the item life cycle, and the reasoning for some of these changes. Explaining systems just for the sake of explaining them is outside the scope of my purpose here. Quite frankly any player can read any of the artisan pages and get examples of how they provide gold sinks and will reduce inflation. What they cannot ascertain from those pages is how these new systems correlate to their previous iterations. I hope you will consider this an efficient response to your inquiry.

@Shelledfade. Artisans have 10 levels apiece. Time spent in the game can be used to enhance their ability and allow them the option of making more items. Those items will be worn by the player, who will then feel as though they have advanced. They will also aquire these in addition to drops (not in lieu of) from monsters. Gear-based progression is the goal, character based progression is not. The progression is there, the debate should be whether it's better to centralize it around gear rather than character.
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