Diablo® III

Hit Lag

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Yeah cause there aren't hit scan weapons in fps....

So you should be able to just run backwards forever and never be threatened by melee ever? OK. That sounds fun.


the same thing happens with kiting...

should snares not be allowed in the game? should we just have a combat engagement like final fantasy games, and just get rid of movement being in the combat system? or maybe you want the combat system to be like WoW, where we just sit and target everything until they die

sorry for wanting a real arpg game where all combat mechanics are viable options


Snares are there to prevent melee from reaching melee range. The only time they can hit.

The point of movement and snaring is to keep melee out of melee range as long as possible.
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04/10/2012 10:12 AMPosted by D3BETA
yea thats fine, but thats avoiding the problem instead of fixing it. id rather do said kiting, and in tight situations be able to skillfully dodge attacks in a game that looks to be meant to do so (i.e. not like wow where everything is rng based hit or miss)


You are doing said kiting. If they reach melee they hit you.

If you time your skills right, if you use them well, if you position yourself, you won't get hit as much. You'll still get hit, but then again that's why Barbs and Monks got 30% damage reduction. They always get hit by melee.

Ranged won't always be hit by melee. Melee needs to be threatening to them. To deal damage.
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calm down.

secondly, in inferno, it WILL be near one hit kill mode, and monsters will be very agressive, and many of them will be faster than us. i find it shocking that i hafta explain to you in such detail as to why juking is a good mechanic, and that the bugs going on are ruining it and you want them to stay in the game...


And people want inferno to be balls out hard.

I understand what's going on very well. I disagree with you. What you don't understand is that your arguments aren't going to make me change my opinion.


no, i understand that very well - i can see that pretty clearly. im continuing this argument not to convince you, but in hopes that blizzard sees it and fixes the problems.

our argument is bring out the tiny details in the problems, which is a good thing regardless of the outcome of how you feel about the subject
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My only worry about changing it is it makes running away easier.

If you run away from a melee monster, even if they can catch up to you, by the time the catch up and swing you will be out of range again and they miss. Then they have to catch up again, and so on and so on.

Although I like the idea that my HC barb can just run away, to make it too easy is just bad IMO. Using a skill to get away, either stun to interrupt them, or even just leap to open up a gap, seems more skillful.
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So, let's say you can interrupt attacks by moving away from enemies. What does gameplay look like for high hitpoint enemies (Inferno)?

1) Equip weapon that swings faster than the enemies' weapons.
2) Stack move speed to go faster than enemies (at least fast enough to get out of melee range before their swings complete).
3) From range, click a monster in the front line, so as to attack once.
4) Click away from pack to run away, interrupting monster attacks.
5) Repeat 3-4 until monsters die.

Does this sound inherently fun? Or should this strategy be discouraged somehow, with a 30% damage reduction given as compensation to classes that are forced to fight in melee range?
Edited by Jim on 4/10/2012 10:21 AM PDT
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04/10/2012 10:15 AMPosted by D3BETA
yea thats fine, but thats avoiding the problem instead of fixing it. id rather do said kiting, and in tight situations be able to skillfully dodge attacks in a game that looks to be meant to do so (i.e. not like wow where everything is rng based hit or miss)


You are doing said kiting. If they reach melee they hit you.

If you time your skills right, if you use them well, if you position yourself, you won't get hit as much. You'll still get hit, but then again that's why Barbs and Monks got 30% damage reduction. They always get hit by melee.

Ranged won't always be hit by melee. Melee needs to be threatening to them. To deal damage.


yes, i understand this. but like ive said several times now, there are many games out there where juking is possible, and melee are still plenty of a threat, we just have one more viable option on the table as of what to do, increasing the overall skill cap of the game. without it, the skill cap is severely reduced, and overall feels clunky and buggy, and the combat turns into something more like wow, where we just faceroll our keyboards and facetank all melee thatre too fast. this also heavily limits our builds to where there are mandatory skills to have - instead of being able to avoid getting one of these skills if the player behind the controls is good enough to outmaneuver guys instead of relying on, for instance teleport or frost nova
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Yeah, that looks busted.
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So, let's say you can interrupt attacks by moving away from enemies. What does gameplay look like for high hitpoint enemies (Inferno)?

1) Equip weapon that swings faster than the enemies' weapons.
2) Stack move speed to go faster than enemies (at least fast enough to get out of melee range before their swings complete).
3) From range, click a monster in the front line, so as to attack once.
4) Click away from pack to run away, interrupting monster attacks.
5) Repeat 3-4 until monsters die.

Does this sound inherently fun? Or should this strategy be discouraged somehow, with a 30% damage reduction given as compensation to classes that are forced to fight in melee range?


so it would be more fun to just face tank them all until they die? while you wait for your cooldowns on teleport / forst nova etc

it is actually pretty fun kiting monsters, btw, and there is danger involved in that too.

first, its very likely you grab more and more guys while doing so, and the only way to avoid doing that is kiting in a straight line backwards, which does get rid of that problem, but now youve continually had to backtrack.

btw this is still the case either way, however without these things being fixed, you simply take a bunch of extra hits that should have been dodged (or die to them)

the big difference being that you cant let them initiate a swing, which is more or less the same thing, however its very buggy when you are getting hit by swings youve dodged by a long shot

its less skillful in its current iteration. it makes reaction time not matter as much, and it makes the kiting phase longer, being you hafta wait until theyre way out of range so that you can do an attack and continue kiting before they ever initiate a swing.

this also limits our builds greatly by forcing us to have more than just a slow to stop said initiations. we now need at least a slow + something else for the faster mobs... which is fine, if you like being pigeon holed...
Edited by D3BETA on 4/10/2012 10:31 AM PDT
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You can still kite them. There's the time between melee swings and movement to catch up. There's more than one ability with a slow.

Aren't there also stun skills? Time warp as well?

Followers and other people?
Edited by D3BETA on 4/10/2012 10:33 AM PDT
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04/10/2012 10:31 AMPosted by D3BETA
You can still kite them. There's the time between melee swings and movement to catch up. There's more than one ability with a slow.


indeed, but now, the phase between kite and attack is much longer being that we cant avoid the hits, so we basically need to kite them until they are at max range again before we can stop to attack

and for any type of monster thats faster than us, we simply hafta face tank them, or are forced into having an extra skill (read: more than one) like zombie wall and spirit walk

this ends up putting us into builds where as a witch doctor you need a slow, then 2 escape moves. now half of our build is set up to little variation

and all this could be fixed and more by fixing the buggyness

edit: either way there is no reason why this should be happening:

http://imgur.com/J5L3y
http://imgur.com/4UcaS
http://imgur.com/r7jMZ
http://imgur.com/6dPzS

and the fact that you want this to happen is astounding to me
Edited by D3BETA on 4/10/2012 10:54 AM PDT
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another example i thought of that its the same as - and this one melee, is where say there is a monster, and upon getting close to you, and curls up into a ball and starts pulsating and turns into more of a firey color, and you knowing this monster, knows hes about to blow up in a little bit, so you run out of what looks to be a clear distance out of the explosion area, but because hes already initiated this explosion, so we should get hit by it no matter what? (read: the fire circle situation in melee form)
Edited by D3BETA on 4/10/2012 10:42 AM PDT
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The three pages of your back and forth.. Gemini, your entire argument is based on trying to assert that other players should play how you want them to play.

Do I think it's good that you can't just run away from mobs? Yeah. Challenge. Fight or die. Hack n slash.

It kind of defeats the purpose of having avoidance skills if you can just run away.

If you never get hit it's not much of a challenge. Monsters aren't a threat.


Here's the problem. You want to play a certain way. Apparently, you want to just brute force as a tanky character, which is totally legit. Problem is, not everyone is like you. And your solution only applies to you, and not to others.

What your asking for is for other players to be forced to play how you want them to play.

No it is a get out of jail free card. Scavengers are supposed to be threatening. They are supposed to be fast. They are supposed to hit you and make you afraid of them. You kill them fast or die.

If they are in melee range they should hit you at least once. If you don't time your skills you'll get hit.


You seem very controlling. Not only do you seem to want others to be forced to abide by your rules, but in the above quote, you unabashedly dictate what is 'supposed' to happen, in spite of the fact that you are in no way involved in the making of this game. What you're actually saying is, that you WANT that to happen, to other players.

04/10/2012 09:55 AMPosted by D3BETA
CAUSE YOU STEPPED IN THE !@#$ING FIRE IN THE FIRST PLACE. You get in melee range you get hit.


This isn't how those kinds of abilities work. You're exaggerating and making up things to try and credit your own flawed argument.

To be honest I really don't like the way you come across. Having an opinion is fine, but you seem adamant in trying to dictate how others want to play, whereas the solution offered by the OP doesn't affect you, only your perception of how others play.

It's kind of silly that your only examples of how 'game-breaking' this can be is outdated scenarios from Diablo 2. An issue which has been specifically addressed by the dev team. Torchlight, as shown in this video, uses accurate detection, does that bother you?

This is an intentional coding mechanic on Blizzard's part, but it reduces the skill cap. This is in direct contradiction to their supposed philosophy, in that they are reducing the skill floor but reducing the ceiling as well.
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04/10/2012 10:52 AMPosted by D3BETA
This is an intentional coding mechanic on Blizzard's part, but it reduces the skill cap. This is in direct contradiction to their supposed philosophy, in that they are reducing the skill floor but reducing the ceiling as well.

It doesn't reduce the skill cap, though. Honestly, it allows you to use movement speed as a crutch if you're consistently getting yourself into bad situations. If you're skilled you'll either spend minimal time in melee range or you'll pop defensive/healing abilities competently enough to keep yourself alive in melee range.

Having a severe movement speed advantage on what you're fighting just allows you the option to avoid fighting all together. It's allowing you an option that requires no skill to circumvent situations that would require skill.
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People who are thinking that dodging melee attacks would be OP if they removed hit lagg - remember that we're playing a portion of the first act on normal, where monsters are supposed to be slow and unaggressive. In later difficulties they will certainly target you faster and more aggressively and hit you quicker.
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04/10/2012 10:35 AMPosted by D3BETA
You can still kite them. There's the time between melee swings and movement to catch up. There's more than one ability with a slow.


indeed, but now, the phase between kite and attack is much longer being that we cant avoid the hits, so we basically need to kite them until they are at max range again before we can stop to attack

and for any type of monster thats faster than us, we simply hafta face tank them, or are forced into having an extra skill (read: more than one) like zombie wall and spirit walk

this ends up putting us into builds where as a witch doctor you need a slow, then 2 escape moves. now half of our build is set up to little variation

and all this could be fixed and more by fixing the buggyness

edit: either way there is no reason why this should be happening:

http://imgur.com/J5L3y
http://imgur.com/4UcaS
http://imgur.com/r7jMZ
http://imgur.com/6dPzS

and the fact that you want this to happen is astounding to me

The Witch Doctor has pets to tank for him and plenty of escapes.

If you want to go all offense you just have to make sure you're killing everything before it gets to you. To be perfectly honest, though, it's a little naive to think you were going to be able to play through the entire game without any defensive or escape abilities.
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04/10/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Gigan
Honestly, it allows you to use movement speed as a crutch if you're consistently getting yourself into bad situations.


again, you cant stack movement speed like you could in d2. in d3, there are no auras to increase it, and only boots have increased movement speed

04/10/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Gigan
If you're skilled you'll either spend minimal time in melee range or you'll pop defensive/healing abilities competently enough to keep yourself alive in melee range.


this is something you would have to do regardless. you guys are acting like we are all swift ninjas of divine masters behind the controls. dodging one guy, yea, its pretty easy, but being able to juke everything when fighting larger groups is something barely anyone can do. and when they hit hard, its not like you can sway your way through much. you still need gear and protection, but being able to juke increases ones survivability through another skill. this one in finesse. its something to be done in addition to the gameplay mechanics and only the 1% can truely pull off using this purely.

The Witch Doctor has pets to tank for him and plenty of escapes.

If you want to go all offense you just have to make sure you're killing everything before it gets to you. To be perfectly honest, though, it's a little naive to think you were going to be able to play through the entire game without any defensive or escape abilities.


same goes for this, obviously
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04/10/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Gigan
It doesn't reduce the skill cap, though.


Of course it reduces the skill cap. That's hardly a matter of opinion.. being unable to effectively dodge a melee attack once started = less options. You are hit, or you are not hit once you pass a certain threshold. Less variables, less less player input is responded to = lower skill cap. Explain to me how this raises the skill cap. It certainly does change gameplay, so it either raises it or lowers it. What's your explanation?

Honestly, it allows you to use movement speed as a crutch if you're consistently getting yourself into bad situations. If you're skilled you'll either spend minimal time in melee range or you'll pop defensive/healing abilities competently enough to keep yourself alive in melee range.


Implied that any player who disagrees is bad, right? What I read here is that according to you, either you are good enough to overcome to sloppy mechanics, and if your bad, you'll die anyway. There's no point here at all.

Having a severe movement speed advantage on what you're fighting just allows you the option to avoid fighting all together. It's allowing you an option that requires no skill to circumvent situations that would require skill.


First off, severe movement speed advantage? Who said anything about a movement speed advantage? Your hero is already quite capable of outmaneuvering many enemies. Some are just slow. This has nothing to do with lowering or raising movement speed.

Secondly, your point about avoiding the option of fighting is silly. You can already avoid the option of fighting, by just not going near, or playing extremely defensively. You could run and switch your entire build after each fight, if you wanted. The problem here, is you, like the other guy, are trying to dictate how others should play.

It's laughable that you would consider the option of accurate hit detection to allow manual dodging of melee attacks to be less inherently skillful than taking a hit and using a potion. Do you know why they call certain abilities "skill shots" in moba games? Because you have to aim them, and the enemy players can dodge.

It's completely naive that you would assume that just because a player can dodge melee, that all of a sudden, all melee is negated 100%. As is shown in the video, TL uses accurate detection, and has no shortage of character death. There are no examples of your proposal being even remotely plausible.
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Yeah most of the things in D2 that killed me were broken ranged stuff, or undodgeable melee stuff.

Fire enchanted, stygian doll explosion, venom snakes and those lightning souls.

Diablo's melee was pointless. It was his lightning inferno and fire nova that did the damage.
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