Diablo® III

From a Diablo II VETERAN (Rant it up)

Posts: 1,550
Yeah I agree with you on the AR thing.

But I really don't like the idea of taking the stat distribution out.
It's not game breaking but I really didn't see any advantage on this.
100 Undead Rogue
UE
13570
Posts: 344
Really good post!

Questions:

1. Do you think that rather than throw out a stat/skill choosing system, they could have found a way to keep it and make it less 'cookie cutter'? Or was their decision to remove it entirely the best way to go?

2. By linearity, is Diablo 3 less 'free' in the sense that there's not as much room to wander in the wilds? Ie in Diablo 2 I remember having to run around searching for the 'cave' or 'door' to the next area.


There's no stat distribution in WoW and I don't miss it.
There's no stat distribution in Skyrim and I don't miss it.
There's no stat distribution in Diablo III and I don't miss it.
Why? Because if you're going to make a rigid class system, each of those classes is going to favor a specific skill, all the way back to the D&D days. So any kind of "choice" is an illusion, i.e. a choice between putting it in the right thing, and putting it in the wrong thing. Could they have made it less cookie cutter? Maybe? I don't know, but I know that I won't miss it. Stats in Diablo II added nothing, and a lack of them in Diablo III takes away nothing.

It's literally impossible to comment on the "freeness" of open areas in Diablo III at this point. There is absolutely no way to know if what we've seen of the areas in any way compares to what we'll see later. Remember: first third of the first act. That being said, I didn't particularly enjoy "wandering the 'wilds"' in Diablo II, as they contained absolutely nothing of interest more often than not. I believe there will probably be less to wander around in, and more to see when you do in Diablo III. That's my honest opinion on the matter.
Posts: 47
Currently D3 is not. It needs some work. I think if you gave everyone all of the skills over the first 60 levels it would be more fun. Something to look forward to. None of this only 6 slots business. It would give us something exciting every time we leveled up


If, by 'currently', you mean the beta, then yeah, it needs some 'work', lets call it; 'Full Retail Copy'.

But I think that if you took the time to look at the skill system and how it evolves you add runes of increasing power, you'll realize that there's a lot to look forward to.
100 Undead Rogue
UE
13570
Posts: 344
Yeah I agree with you on the AR thing.

But I really don't like the idea of taking the stat distribution out.
It's not game breaking but I really didn't see any advantage on this.


Again, what do you gain from this? I could maybe, maybe see a sliver of a hint of an argument this point, but they added NOTHING to Diablo II. As I've already said, a barbarian receives such pitiful returns for strength in Diablo II that even HE can't justify taking more than he needs for gear over vitality. Especially when the returns for vitality on a barb are so generous. Even in hell unleashed, when the returns were greater, there was still no reason. Stats are an illusion of customization. What you "lost" from stat distribution you gained ten times over in depth of skills, and RUNES FOR EVERY SKILL.
100 Undead Rogue
UE
13570
Posts: 344
02/02/2012 02:31 AMPosted by Martyr
Currently D3 is not. It needs some work. I think if you gave everyone all of the skills over the first 60 levels it would be more fun. Something to look forward to. None of this only 6 slots business. It would give us something exciting every time we leveled up


If, by 'currently', you mean the beta, then yeah, it needs some 'work', lets call it; 'Full Retail Copy'.

But I think that if you took the time to look at the skill system and how it evolves you add runes of increasing power, you'll realize that there's a lot to look forward to.


+1
The only thing not "fun" about the beta is that it ends before we see the rest of the game.
Posts: 464
5 out of 5. Well said good Sir..
Posts: 1
There is no response that will negate any of the points you made. Well said.

People just need something to whine about, this is a fact and it's my first day on this forum and it is saturated with whiners. Been playing Diablo since 1, HUGE fan.

I absolutely love the changes to the skill system. My 'rage' builder is a cleave that hits multiple enemies only to unload on them with another AE that is a gigantic, vicious hammer slamming into the fray. All of this in the first 5 levels. HOW can you not like that? If you don't, it's been said before and, well there's no better way to say it. If you don't like it, DON'T PLAY. If Diablo II was FUN for you, good for you.

I found it great fun and the ONLY thing that disappoints me is that the beta isn't longer.
Really good post!

Questions:

1. Do you think that rather than throw out a stat/skill choosing system, they could have found a way to keep it and make it less 'cookie cutter' oriented? Or was their decision to remove it entirely the best way to go?


I'll answer that for you. They did, it's Runestones. The Runestone system is really the "stat/skill choosing system of D3. Also, I'm not sure how many people realize this, but using effective Runestones in the live game isn't go to be like how it is in the Skill Builder on the website. Getting high level Runestones is going to be very hard, you will spend most of the game WITHOUT the Runestones you want and be playing with whatever you can get weighing the pros and cons of where to use the few good Runestones you have.

People saying you get all the skills by level 30 are only half right, you won't have good Runestones at level 30 so you won't have "complete" builds at level 30.
There was only one error. Sorc's didn't wait for chain lightning, just lightning. Fun read.
Posts: 1,550
MAYBE on a pvm point of view.
I'm not talking about strength on a barb...but going full vitality against caster or max block against melee, full mana sorcs, pvp zealer, chargers, mb or full vita necros...
There are many points that contradict your theory that the stats were just illusions.

edit: Besides you are comparing DIABLO with SKYRIM and WOW. lol

I really think you said it well in all but at this point.
Edited by Zorak on 2/2/2012 3:01 AM PST
100 Undead Rogue
UE
13570
Posts: 344
MAYBE on a pvm point of view.
I'm not talking about strength on a barb...but going full vitality against caster or max block against melee, full mana sorcs, pvp zealer, chargers, mb or full vita necros...
There are many points that contradict your theory that the stats were just illusions.

edit: Besides you are comparing DIABLO with SKYRIM and WOW. lol


No, I'm pointing out three separate RPG games, all built based on original DnD models, that used to have distributable stats, and no longer do.

And you cannot come up with an effective argument by taking one very small (sorry, but PVP is a tacked-on extra at best in Diablo II) component of Diablo II and comparing it with the entirety of Diablo III. It's lop-sided and completely beside the point. Again, this post is not about PVP, and the fact that PVP was ever a basis for patching skills and items in Diablo II only goes to prove its general worthlessness.
85 Night Elf Hunter
1850
Posts: 60
Tavus you are a gentleman and a scholar and I wish everyone on these forums made posts like yours. I read your post full well knowing that as soon as I was done some mouth breathing retard was going to argue with you anyways =[. 5 star post sir
Posts: 1,550
So 4 you the pvp was just a small component of Diablo II ? lol

So you get all those years playing diablo doing what?
Doing Baal runs and uber trist just to look good? Maybe be the best sorc on the ladder ?lol

Diablo 2 for true ladder veterans = leveling-farming-trading-farming-trading-killing other players/helping friends to level/have alot of fun !
Posts: 1,052
So 4 you the pvp was just a small component of Diablo II ? lol

So you get all those years playing diablo doing what?
Doing Baal runs and uber trist just to look good? Maybe be the best sorc on the ladder ?lol

Diablo 2 for true ladder veterans = leveling-farming-trading-farming-trading-killing other players/helping friends to level/have alot of fun !


You're hopeless. All you added to that list was griefing, anyway.
Posts: 1,550
Have you ever played diablo ?
All I'm saying is that stats on D2 were not only "illusions" like he said.

I agree with the rest of the post
Edited by Zorak on 2/2/2012 3:19 AM PST
Posts: 1,052
Have you ever played diablo ?
All I'm saying is that stats on D2 were not only "illusions" like he sayd.


There was absolutely no reason to distribute stats more than a small, single digit number of ways. If you don't understand how that is illusion of choice it doesn't mean it's incorrect.

I'll ignore the half-assed diablo comment because it's even worse than the rest.
Posts: 1,550
The d2 stats system surely needed to be improved ! i agree...but I see no reason to take it from the game just improve it.
90 Tauren Warrior
10130
Posts: 1,022
Tavus,

Agreed, completely. Excellent points. Ability to back them up. +500 intertubes.

If you're not in the Beta, that'd be a shame.
Posts: 121
Seeing soooo many threads, way too many in fact, from "Diablo II veterans" complaining about the "lack of customization" and the "lack of exploration" blah blah blah I am SO TIRED of hearing this. It's nostalgia, ignorance, denial, or some combination of the three.

I am a true Diablo veteran thank you; I was playing Diablo I long before Diablo II came out, I played Diablo II right when it was released up through every patch it has ever undergone, LoD, everything. I've done it all, I can intelligently discuss it all with you. The one thing I can't fathom is how a true veteran of Diablo II can look at the skill system of Diablo III and tell me that it's worse.

Worse? Excuse me, I love Diablo II, I always have and still do. But if you cannot admit that it is ANTIQUATED at this point, then you're not a very good judge of an RPG game. Every class uses the SAME resource system. 15 seconds after you get your first skill for the barbarian you're out of mana. After that, you get to use Bash once or twice a minute, or you could rock a couple rows of mana pots on your belt. It was a _little_ better when mana leech on items was a level 4 mod, so you could actually have a little regain on your resource bar, but nowadays it's lvl ~28, so you're pretty much %@#%ed for the first 30 levels of most classes. Sound balanced?

Next I'd point out that there's maybe 1-2 useful offensive skills for each class out of the 3 entire trees that they have. Some have more, but then again some others can't even solo hell no matter what spec they use, and even fewer can solo ubers while others can almost breeze through them. Sound balanced?

And did I mention that 90% of those good sklils are acquired at either 24 or 30? The barbarian is basically twiddling his thumbs until frenzy, concentration, or whirlwind (back in classic at least, it blows now). The Sorc's usefulness goes up about 2343294872049823% the moment you get FO, Blizzard, or Chain Lightning. So you're just supposed to trudge through the first 23 levels of the game? Sounds well spread out.

Now let's talk about Diablo III. Every class in the game either starts with a skill, or gets one within the first 5 levels that I can see myself using for their entire existence. Cleave, a skill that actually generates my resource, does good damage and hits multiple targets? Holy !@#$! I could point out dozens upon dozens of other examples that fully flesh out what I'm saying here but it's so obvious that I think I'll just drop the bottom line:

The sophistication and ACTUAL synergy (not just a word that means "dump skills into one skill and you get passive bonuses for another") of skills for the different classes is literally LIGHT YEARS beyond anything Diablo II has or had. And you know what? That's ok, because that game is ten years old and at the time it was made, it was light years beyond its predecessor (did you know that Diablo I was originally planned to be a turn based game?), not to mention most of the other games that were out at the time. They made mistakes, they went in directions that made no sense, like AR and stamina, that added nothing to the game.

Also, it's time to put an end to this whole rant about lack of stat distribution. I'm sorry, but that argument is utter bull%^-*, and here's why: There is only two kinds of Diablo II players - players that know how to distribute stats, and players that don't. And of the players that know how to distribute stats, there's only one thing you need to say about ANY BUILD OF ANY CLASS IN THE GAME -> enough str/dex to wear the gear, the rest into vitality. Period.

The only exception to this is the dexazon, which is pointless because they're no longer viable anyway.

So there you go, there's your "amazing character customization via stats". It's a lie. It's a shadow of a thought of a dream. It's a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. I.e. it doesn't exist. Pumping strength would not, and will not make your barb a bad !@#. It will give him, at most, a 5-10% increase in damage by the time he's 80, and you'll have sacrificed so much health that you'd be a miserable glass cannon. Even Sorc's don't really need to invest Energy due to the improved mana regeneration and "+ to mana after each kill" items that are available.

I don't see how this is an argument. Throwing stats in every level was not only arduous, it was nerve wracking, and the same is true of skills. For the first 10 years of Diablo II, every time you made a character you went to a website, thoroughly researched the build, and knew, before you EVER set foot on the Blood Moor EXACTLY where EVERY SINGLE POINT OF STATS AND SKILLS WOULD GO. That is NOT customization. And unfortunately the game was tuned so poorly in the upper difficulties after 1.09 that there was only half a dozen viable builds total across all the classes. You can experiment with useless skills if that's your definition of customization, but I can tell you right now that unless you're a Ice/Lighting Sorc, Ice/Fire Sorc, Hammerdin, Smiter, WW/Lightning Trap Sin, Javazon, Frenzy Barb, Conc Barb, Zoomancer with godly gear, or a Bear pet druid, you aren't doing fcking anything in hell, period. And some of those builds don't do much anyway unless you have godly $%^ gear. And some of then aren't that great even then.

I'm sorry, but that's not "breadth of customization". I can fully imagine there will be some issues with tuning in Diablo III, that's just the way game development works, but I can tell you right now that it's not very debatable that the mere shred of the skills systems we're able to see right now are already way beyond the design quality of the entire scope of Diablo II. There's really no other way to see that, or say it.

I'm not saying Diablo II sucked because it didn't and it doesn't, but I am very tired of nostalgic whining that puts severely dated systems on a pedastal, and tries to bring down the work, GOOD WORK, done on Diablo III. If you think that, and don't play Diablo III because of it, I feel really bad for you, because you're missing out on one hell of a game.

EDIT:
I forgot a couple things, bare with me:

I have also heard how "linear" Diablo III is, and how "lame the quests" are. Seriously? someone said either of those two things? Excuse me, the entirely of the first act of Diablo II has a path that you can follow literally from the moment you exit the Rogue Encampment until you set foot in the Outer Cloister. How is that not the very definition of linear? Yeah, there's other things off the beaten path, but I really don't garner a single iota of fun from running around the map, bouncing in between border lines of endless grey brick walls, while looking for a Waypoint, the Cairn Stones, etc. Yeah, I do them because I want the waypoints for later, etc. but that doesn't put Diablo II over that "linear or not line". I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Every area in the game is contained within some boxed shape area or another. Paths and shapes differ slightly, but it's pretty much the exact same thing as Diablo III. I'm not complaining about either game, I'm simply pointing out just how erroneous that argument is. On the other hand, Diablo III has: multiple alternate areas in each main area, random events that are so diverse that I can almost truthfully say I seem something new every time I play through the beta, random bonus quests, etc. That may not put Diablo III over the "linear or not" line either, but I can say that it does break up the monotony, and areas that you've been in before, you may not recognize again when you're passing through. Considering I didn't see the "Jar of Souls" on my first few playthroughs of the beta, I can easily see myself saying "woah, I've never seen this before" for a long time once I have the full game in my hand. Bottom line is, neither game is a sand box, Skyrim type game, and they never will be. You can split hairs about which is more linear than the other, but I'm pretty sure Diablo III will come out on top of that argument as well.

And as to the lame quests? I'm sorry, but the only quests anyone ever does in Diablo II are the ones that gives rewards. No one cares about the lore, no one goes out of their way to do anything that doesn't specifically give them something that they want... I'm sorry but they're lame, and 9 out of 10 Diablo II players skip the entire 3rd act :\ Tell me that's not lame with a straight face.

Lack of item effect on character look... Are you freaking kidding me? How can you say that with a straight face? It's the first THIRD of the first ACT of the first DIFFICULTY? Not to mention that EVERY piece of gear has a unique look on every character. Not to mention that the armor looks in Diablo II varied so slightly from one step up or down to the next that you could hardly tell one from the other (http://www.mmorpguides.com/forum/Armor-Appearance-Class-t15132.html woohoo!). Not to mention that Diablo III has like 3 times the amount of armor tiers. Not to mention that Diablo II's exceptional and elite armor had the exact same graphics as their identical normal tiers...

Not to mention any of that... it's still act 1 of normal, I think we could find other things to complain about.



this person knows what they're talkin about
100,000,000,000 galaxys to u
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