Diablo® III

Dual Wield DPS / APS Oddities

This is going to be long and will probably get confusing, bear with me if you can, someone told me that some of this is documented by Blizzard already but the more I look into this the weirder these mechanics are working (or not working).

So I ran into a few oddities (at least based on my limited knowledge) while playing around with equipping weapons in the MH and OH slots.

So here's a little background.

Fine Hand Axe
4-5 Damage
1.30 Attacks Per Second
5.9 DPS
+29% Damage

Balanced Hand Axe
3-4 Damage
1.37 Attacks Per Second
4.8 DPS
+0.07 Attacks Per Second

First weapon is my Main Hand and the second is my Off-hand. My character sheet shows my overall DPS as 7.50.

Now I have...

Inferior Dagger
2-5 Damage
1.39 Attacks Per Second
5.2 DPS
-0.11 Attacks Per Second

If I use that Dagger to replace the above mentioned Balanced Axe Off-hand, I lose 0.3 DPS even though the tooltip shows that I should gain DPS.

If you do the math to get the DPS of that dagger it's...

(2+5) * 0.5 * 1.39 = 4.865 or 4.9, the tooltip shows 5.2. That is wrong but doesn't explain why I lose 0.3 DPS when changing it with that Balanced Axe.

So I thought that maybe the APS affix isn't being calculated into the tooltip (even though they are supposed to be).

(2+5) * 0.5 *(1.39 - 0.11) = 4.48 or 4.5. Now THAT explains the 0.3 DPS loss.

To summarize this, when putting this Dagger into the Off-hand slot to replace the 4.8 DPS Balanced Axe, the game DOES NOT calculate the "-0.11 APS" affix into the tooltip and thinks the Dagger is actually 4.5 DPS, which is why I lose some over the 4.8 DPS Axe.

But if I replace that same 4.8 DPS Balanced Axe with that same "5.2" DPS Dagger while it's in my Main Hand, I gain DPS like the tooltip suggests in the first place (0.5 DPS which is wrong but at least it gained liked it should), hence the affix WAS reflected in the tooltip (although it was still wrong according to the math above, it should really be 4.9 DPS, not 5.2).

So why then, when dual wielding, does the Dagger LOWER my DPS when replacing the lower DPS Axe but when I replace them as MH items while not DWing it increases it like the tooltips suggest?

It seems that affixes (and something else behind the scenes) are being calculated DIFFERENTLY depending on whether your are dual wielding or not. Something seems broken there unless I'm missing something.



Now onto a separate oddity...


I know that the detailed character stat sheet shows your APS alternate between the 2 weapon speeds of your weapons for each attack (including the +15% APS perk of DWing).

  • I equip 2 Axes with 1.30 APS each. The character sheet reads 1.49 (the +15% speed buff). It doesn't change between attacks since both weapons are the same.

  • I switch one of the Axes for a 1.37 APS axe. The character sheet doesn't alternate at all and just reads a constant 1.49 even though it should be showing 1.49 for one attack then 1.58 for the next.

  • Now, if I put a 1.39 speed DAGGER with one of the 1.30 speed Axes, THEN the character sheet shows the APS alternate between the weapons, 1.49 and 1.60 respectively and correctly.

  • If I put the 1.39 Dagger in the Main Hand and then a 1.30 Axe in the Off-hand, the first APS shows 1.60 speed, which is correct for the dagger, but it alternates to show 1.37 for the )ff-hand attack, which is not correct (1.30 * 1.15 for the DW buff = 1.49).

  • If I put the 1.39 dagger in my MH and a 1.37 Axe in OH, my APS reads 1.68 and 1.45 alternately. Both of those are wrong...

  • If I put the 1.39 dagger in my MH and a 1.37 Axe in OH, my APS reads 1.68 and 1.45 alternately. Both of those are wrong...(EDIT: The 1.37 Axe has "+0.07 APS" and I was forgetting to add that to the MH Dagger, when that is done it comes out to be 1.68 with the DW buff, so that's right, but 1.45 for the Off-hand is still wrong as far as I can tell).

  • EDIT: Just put on a 1.40 Sword in Off-hand with the 1.39 Dagger in MH. It's showing my APS as 1.60 / 1.48. The 1.60 is correct for the Dagger but why would the Off-hand sword only gain 0.08 APS? If I equip the sword with a 1.30 Axe, they become 1.49 / 1.61 which is correct, so it seems to have to do with a bug in item types?

    There's some more but this is getting long and the bottom line is that DW just seems flat out broken in terms of what stats on weapons it uses/calculates and when in terms of DPS and APS.
    Edited by D3BETA on 2/3/2012 8:46 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    85 Tauren Druid
    3735
    Well it seems the weapons tooltip neglects to account for "inferior" .11 aps penalty, that just seems a simple bug

    however when dual wielding take note that MH and OH are not as simple like they are in WoW,
    the primary vs secondary weapon IIRC is based on equip order.

    when dual weidling different APS weapons, you will get different final APS depending on which one you equipped last. afaik the last one you equip becomes secondary no matter if you put it in the char screen slot right OR left.
    (this was to some degree exploitable by dual claw assassins in D2 LoD)


    If I put the 1.39 Dagger in the Main Hand and then a 1.30 Axe in the Off-hand, the first APS shows 1.60 speed, which is correct for the dagger, but it alternates to show 1.37 for the )ff-hand attack, which is not correct (1.30 * 1.15 for the DW buff = 1.49).

    AH now that IS interesting; so it would seem the -.11 "inferior" penalty from the dagger is being applied to your secondary item? interesting
    (1.3 -.11 ) *1.15 = 1.3685 rounded to 1.37


    If I put the 1.39 dagger in my MH and a 1.37 Axe in OH, my APS reads 1.68 and 1.45 alternately. Both of those are wrong...

    completely predictable!
    so what we have here is the .11 penalty on the axe, while the bonus .07 onto the dagger :)

    (1.39 dagger+.07)*1.15 = 1.679 rounds to 1.68 :)
    ( 1.37 axe - .11)*1.15 = 1.449 rounds to 1.45 :)

    this is interesting bc the axe is getting its buff + the dagger penalty.
    please switch the order in which you equip these items and see what else happens


    EDIT: Just put on a 1.40 Sword in Off-hand with the 1.39 Dagger in MH. It's showing my APS as 1.60 / 1.48. The 1.60 is correct for the Dagger but why would the Off-hand sword only gain 0.08 APS?

    totally predictable

    the sword is (1.4 - .11) * 1.15 = 1.4835
    bc te penalty from the dagger is applied to it
    Edited by Korba on 2/3/2012 8:53 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    02/03/2012 08:26 PMPosted by Korba
    Well it seems the weapons tooltip neglects to account for "inferior" .11 aps penalty, that just seems a simple bug


    Yeah, but when not dual wielding it DOES account for it.

    when dual weidling different APS weapons, you will get different final APS depending on which one you equipped last. afaik the last one you equip becomes secondary no matter if you put it in the char screen slot right OR left.
    (this was to some degree exploitable by dual claw assassins in D2 LoD)


    This is really interesting and, to me, seems kind of dumb and counter-intuitive though. I hate hidden quirks like that, I'm a perfectionist that needs to know EXACTLY how things work in order to enjoy it.

    I got Diablo beta 24 hours ago and I JUST got Leah in the pub after hours of being logged on because I'm fixated on all of these mechanics, lol.


    If I put the 1.39 Dagger in the Main Hand and then a 1.30 Axe in the Off-hand, the first APS shows 1.60 speed, which is correct for the dagger, but it alternates to show 1.37 for the Off-hand attack, which is not correct (1.30 * 1.15 for the DW buff = 1.49).

    AH now that IS interesting; so it would seem the -.11 "inferior" penalty from the dagger is being applied to your secondary item? interesting
    (1.3 -.11 ) *1.15 = 1.3685 rounded to 1.37


    If I put the 1.39 dagger in my MH and a 1.37 Axe in OH, my APS reads 1.68 and 1.45 alternately. Both of those are wrong...



    completely predictable!

    so what we have here is the .11 penalty on the axe, while the bonus .07 onto the dagger :)

    (1.39 dagger+.07)*1.15 = 1.679 rounds to 1.68 :)


    ( 1.37 axe - .11)*1.15 = 1.449 rounds to 1.45 :)


    OH MAN! haha! What's funny is that I JUST started to kind of figure that out as I read this, thanks! /facepalm

    perhaps this is intended feature, penalties are added to 2ndary hand, while bonuses added to primary
    please switch the order in which you equip these items and see what else happens


    No matter the order or slot they are in, it's always the same 1.68 and 1.45, so it was just a simple matter of applying the affix of one weapon to the other.
    Edited by D3BETA on 2/3/2012 9:00 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    85 Tauren Druid
    3735
    02/03/2012 08:55 PMPosted by D3BETA
    No matter the order or slot they are in, it's always the same 1.68 and 1.45, so it was just a simple matter of applying the affix of one weapon to the other.


    hmm, I will have to double check on my DH when i FINALLY get my comp running... but i could swear that having a 1.4 and a 1.6
    I will get a different APS if I put the 1.6 on first, vs the 1.4 on first
    perhaps that was fixed though, i think it was a patch 10 issue
    Edited by Korba on 2/3/2012 8:59 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    I wonder if the discrepancy between the math and the tooltip comes from you not including the "Damage Increase" percentage from core attributes? Although that stat is a little confusing to me as to what exactly goes into it (and how it is applied). Right now my Dexterity attribute (playing a DH right now) accounts for the entirety of the Damage Increase percentage. It says items play into its calculation, but which affix affects it? Is there a "damage increased by x%" affix that will affect this percentage? I'm not sure exactly.

    In a slightly more related topic, I'm also having confusion about DPS when dual wielding.

    The weapons in question:

    Spiteful Hand Crossbow of the Bear
    3-17 Damage
    16.3 DPS
    1.63 APS
    +16 Vitality
    +2% Increase attack speed
    +0.65 increase hatred regen/sec

    Light Hand Crossbow of Slaughter
    2 - 9 Damage
    8.8 DPS
    1.60 APS
    +1 life after each kill

    When I equip the Spiteful Hand Crossbow, the tooltip says I have 22.41 DPS, which I can't come to this result no matter what calculations I make. I have 34% Damage Increased from Dexterity, but no other equipment provides me DPS increases. I wonder if the +2% IAS affix is throwing me off. I don't know if that is accounted for in the "details" section of my character stats or not. In the details, it says I have 1.63 APS which matches the weapon.

    The odd part comes when I equip the Light Hand Crossbow. DPS drops to 19.89. I get this same DPS drop no matter the order of equip, even though my APS changes based on order of equip.

    Maybe this is simply ignorance but it seems dual wielding two 1-handed weapons should always be a DPS increase over a single 1-handed weapon.

    Reply Quote
    02/04/2012 12:23 PMPosted by D3BETA
    I wonder if the discrepancy between the math and the tooltip comes from you not including the "Damage Increase" percentage from core attributes?


    the weapons damage is considered its own source, skills and buffs come second
    (weapons base * speed * weapon enhancements) * (skills + buffs) * critical factors

    3-17 xbow with 1.63 aps = 16.3 weapon dps
    then

    +35% dex = 22 dps
    then a ~4% crit chance (criticals creating +50% damage) is another +2% avg
    so final dps is 22.44.

    if you use hunger arrows, drop that to 85% since it puts a penalty on your damage


    it seems dual wielding two 1-handed weapons should always be a DPS increase over a single 1-handed weapon.


    no, I already got into this in the DH thread here, this has to do with the tool tip calculating the alternating attacks.
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3988231378#6

    This means if your 2nd bow is (2.0 < 1.15+1.15x) you net a DPS loss for alternating attacks
    (solve for x and it is 73.9%)

    so when using a bow that is 100dps, if your other bow is < 74dps it will create a DPS loss [when alternating with Hungering arrow].

    the complication is when deciding does the increase hatred regen matter more with the 15% ias buff
    or using skills that use both hands simultaneously e.g. rapid fire and bola shot,,
    Reply Quote
    Ah thanks zoid, it's starting to make more sense now. And I also didn't account for the increase to crit chance.
    Reply Quote

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