Diablo® III

Diablo 3 skill tree.

Posts: 4,762
Posted by Tomas018

Forcing? Diablo 3 is forcing people to not be able to choose their skills. It's not force when you can choose. Next, everyone already knows that Diablo 3 re-playability will be much worse than Diablo 2's because of the skill tree. Diablo 3 skill tree forces you to not be able to choose your skills. Diablo 3 has no re-playability after you make 1 of each class.


I thought you had to chose which 6 active and 3 passive skills you were going to use. So I'm a bit confused about you saying you are being forced to not chose skills. I thought the only thing was that you would be able to change your skills without having to relevel a whole new character. However if you are so dead set to relevel to add "replayability" to the game by all means act as if you cannot respec and I'm assuming that you will also be choosing only 5 total skills since that's the only way DII was viable.

Posted by Shok
Replay value or replayability. ... In video games, the term replay value to describe the entertainment value of playing a game more than once. ... Generally speaking though, a game with dynamic environments, challenging AI, a wide variety of ways to accomplish tasks, and a rich array of assets will keep a player coming back for more


Hmmm this seems to describe DIII to the letter.

  • Dynamic environments ... Check
  • Challenging AI ... Check
  • Wide variety of ways to accomplish tasks ... Check
  • Rich array of assets ... Check
  • Pointless grinding to artificialy extend playtime ... What do you mean it wasn't on the list?
  • Shok we gotta talk bro your definition is clearly lacking the most important aspect of replayability. Please tell me where you found the definition so I can have them fix this glaring oversight. Or if its a personal definition please edit it to include grinding as a key factor to replayability.

    For some reason it wasn't giving credit to the quotes so I edited to show who said each thing I quoted.


    Here is the link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replayability
    29 Human Warrior
    165
    Posts: 12,835
    02/14/2012 08:14 PMPosted by D3BETA
    This is where you are stuck like a broken record. When the majority of the D2 fans disagree with you on. You that D2 sole replayability was rerolling and leveling. Which if it was true then there was no reason to rush through the leveling in order to get to hell difficulty in order to try a new build. If leveling the new build was so much fun. Then everyone should've taken their time leveling if it was so much fun. Forcing players to do something that they do not want to do. Will not add replayability it will take away from it. So instead of making D3 replayable you want the devs to kill it's replayability by rehashing the old system. Sorry that will not work.


    Forcing? Diablo 3 is forcing people to not be able to choose their skills. It's not force when you can choose. Next, everyone already knows that Diablo 3 re-playability will be much worse than Diablo 2's because of the skill tree. Diablo 3 skill tree forces you to not be able to choose your skills. Diablo 3 has no re-playability after you make 1 of each class.


    Oh really and all active and passive skills are automatically chosen for you. Your build is not your own huh. Active and passive skills are on an auto chose. Show me where this happens, if this were true then they would be a greater outcry than just a few players wanting D2's old flawed system.

    Also show me where in D2 that all barbarians did not have the same three trees with all ten skills per tree. Show me where some barbarians only had a small amount of the total skills per tree or even worst only one skill tree for one barbarian and maybe only two skills in that tree total. Then the nest one had two trees and maybe 5 skills total from both trees. You know you cannot do that.

    All barbarians had all three skill trees an all ten skills per skill tree. So each barbarian will at level thirty have access to all thirty skills. The only difference between the two is how they spend those points. D3 You have all passives and all actives unlocked at level thirty, hey this is like D2, great big difference huh.

    Next you choose which active skills and which passive skills you want to use. This is just like D2, the only difference is you do not get skill points to rank up those skills. You improve them primarily by improving your weapon and your stat that is connected to your class.

    Now runestones change the way your skill functions. So they can actually give you sort of skill points. Because they have 7 ranks. Which is like having 42 skill points. The six active and the three passives are like having 9 skill points. So in D3 it is like having a grand total of 51 skill points.
    29 Human Warrior
    165
    Posts: 12,835
    So then I think I know what your beef is Tom. You do not like the fact that all skills are going to be viable in inferno. Instead you want the devs to copy the D2 model. Where at end game you only have a small handful or two of viable skills at inferno. So then there is only one or two different viable inferno builds per class. So instead of having many viable builds you only want a few per class.

    Why is this the case, well there could only be two reasons. One would be because then it would validate the optimal way of playing your class is the only right way to play your class. Which is like it is in other games, like WoW to name one example. Two would be that some players might not like having many different ways to be able to play their class. Without one definite right way to play the class they are lost. They do not know for sure if they are playing their class the right way.

    So what you are really complaining about is the fact that the devs are putting an end to the cookie cutter builds. Where there will be more viable builds in inferno than there ever was in hell for D2. That could be the only reason you would want D3's skill system to reflect that broken old system of D2.
    Honestly, I agree the replay factor doesn't seem there like it was in D2. I don't like the new skill trees because they look like they are just turning D3 in a WoW clone hack n slash. I don't want to play a WoW clone. It's almost copy/paste Mists of Pandaria talent tree to Diablo 3. The new Characters don't seem all that different then the Characters they replaced, leaving me to ask the question why replace them in the first place?
      Maybe I'm just unhappy they didn't leave the Amazon and Necromancer OR because you can pass the beta in 30 minutes and the game seems sorely underwhelming because of it. I'm thankful Blizzard allowed me to test the game, but I think they could have done much better then what they did considering the many years of development time they had.
      If I had to pick up the biggest thing I do not like about the game its the fact it looks like Mists of Pandaria, but set in the D3 universe. Another thing I have found disturbing is that i can't seem to find something I really like about the game. There are the obvious like better graphics engine and better storyline but when I actually play the game I say to myself "I thought the game would have been better"
      From what we can Test in the game the game seems ready for release it looks polished and bug free, but my previous statements stand and I don't think more development time will change the things I don't like because its the direction Blizzard choose to go with this game it just feels like its turning into WoW and that saddens me more than anything else.
    85 Undead Hunter
    810
    Posts: 27
    I see so many people !@#$%ing and complaining and the game isn't even out. Good grief, people. Give the game a chance.
    Posts: 230
    Next, everyone already knows that Diablo 3 re-playability will be much worse than Diablo 2's because of the skill tree. Diablo 3 skill tree forces you to not be able to choose your skills. Diablo 3 has no re-playability after you make 1 of each class.
    1 of each class through 4 difficulties sound like quite a bit.....Interesting note you conveniently ignored is that D2 didn't have and End game NEAR comparable to D3. Thus everyone WANTED to remake chars in D2 just for something else to do :P
    100 Tauren Paladin
    4965
    Posts: 105
    02/14/2012 10:56 PMPosted by D3BETA
    If I had to pick up the biggest thing I do not like about the game its the fact it looks like Mists of Pandaria, but set in the D3 universe.


    So you've played MoP then? Because it's totally out and so is D3 so you can fully play through both and give them a just comparison. Oh wait, Blizzard has only been releasing art and basic details for MoP and you've only had access to a microscopic portion of D3 in the beta test. Yes, you've had enough experience with both to determine their skill systems to be identical. Congrats.
    02/13/2012 06:47 AMPosted by Johadiandunn
    How are you forced to use the respec system? Do the devs force you to use it? Does not using it mean that you will not get punished for using an obvious bad build? Will the minions of hell take it easy on you because you have a bad build, just because you have a respec system in place? What prevents you from making the choice to reroll? Does this game only allow one character per class?

    In all Diablo games your not as much forced to respec to make a viable build, you are forced to grind and search for items in the highest difficulty area you can manage. Improve your gear is what gets you further on, and a few levels might do a little. But no, dev are not forcing me to do anything, they are forcing me on a standard build where I can just choose some different ways to attack and something i can wear.

    Your first playthrough will consist of what you gain and what you find, nothing else, and in D3 you just gain a standard hero, then you can choose some nice ways to attack or som buffs (skills), and you have to make the best of whatever you happend to find. Then you can start grind and search for some specific items too boost you in a certain "specialization", but beneath all that, they're just the same. I find that a bit boring and uninteresting - if you so much like auto-spec, just have a option to just auto-level for you, you seem to like that.


    02/13/2012 06:47 AMPosted by Johadiandunn
    You can still specialize, until I see the skill/rune changes this is a build that I intended to take through on my first playthrough. A barbarian that uses slow, as his primary damage mitigation http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#aZcbWk!YcS!bcbYYZ. So he would specialize in slowing down the mobs. Sure I would need gear that would help him survive by adding in other forms of damage mitigation.

    You "specialize" around gear and some skills with a particular affix "slow", that could just as easily be done in D2.. I'd rather specialize in the way my character treats incoming damage, or favors damage output versus input.. I just don't see why I can't have the full control of that aspect instead of just some sockets.



    02/13/2012 06:47 AMPosted by Johadiandunn
    Someone that is good at math could tell you just how many point spending options existed in D2. I am not that good at math though, then they could show you out of those options how many are hell viable. Which means how many could be used to solo hell with. Where as with D3 I am certain that there will be way more viable builds in inferno.

    As mentioned all the melee characters can do hell with no skills set (they just makes it easier), so in regards of amazon, barbarian and paladin, you're looking at a something like 110 in the power of 30, with some limits (due to max 20 points being allocated in one skill), then you can multiply that by somewhere around 100 for different ways to distribution of stats (cuz you won't have full control, but estimate around a 100 different ways) - when it comes to the caster characters you have 505 in the power of 4 different ways to use stats, but a limited way to spend the skill points cuz you need to specialize, but they have 5 different skills which can be used if maxed to level 20 and then you can dump the rest as you want, so lets just say that you have a 70 in the power of 25 different ways to use skills.

    You're not limited to cookie cutter's or maximum builds if you are to beat hell, just the right eq and you can basicly do it.

    D3 on the other hand has ~24 skills which you can use to fill 6 slots, thats 24x23x22x21x20x19x18 or somthing like that, and then you can choose 6 runes in each, so you can rasie that in the power of 6. Then you can multiply that with the number of different ways to select 3 different passives. most characters have 16 passive skills (except monk) but only a few of them would actually benefit your skills and the way you runed them - from what's expected of Inferno, you most likely need those buffs so that limits your choice to maybe 8 different passives to fill 3 slots, giving 8x7x6 ways to select those, and then you can multiply those to numbers and get a fair estimated, with a 5% significance
    Edited by D3BETA on 2/15/2012 12:35 AM PST
    36 Undead Rogue
    410
    Posts: 11
    they need to modify the way ur skills do damage and how they lvl and add sinergies to them and maybe even change a few of them or like the wizard ive watched so many pvps for d3 and the wizard is op thanks to her gaylittle laser beam thing its like theres no cooldown time for it they should defianlty think about tweaking the skill tree for her and the witch doctor they just need to go over the whole skill three thouroughly and tweak it to make it a whole lot better other than that i think the game is going to KICK AZS HARDCORE FOR SURE GOING TO BE A GODLY GAME AND i just think they need to change the money system i mean wow gold come on this is diablo not world of warcraft i hate seeing them trying to turn a diablo series game into a modified wow game sickens me i under stand if it was just gold things would be kind of easy money wise but idk i just hate looking at videos of the auction house and it being bronze silver gold make me think of wow and i HATE WOW
    36 Undead Rogue
    410
    Posts: 11
    TROLL STF up were giving our input so they can build off of it if it wasnt for our complaining we would get something very similar to wow in a d3 setting an i hate wow so stf up and stop trolling
    85 Orc Death Knight
    8130
    Posts: 3,415
    This thread has gotten way out of control. The OP had his problem solved and answered in like the first 3 posts.
    Community Manager
    Posts: 3,583
    Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by not making people have to level completely new characters just to try out a new build, we are ok with that.

    Leveling characters is cool, and some people legitimately enjoy that process (me!), and we agree it can be fun and would still like to find ways to reward people who enjoy leveling additional characters, but being required to do it just to try out some different skills is no longer acceptable to us. That's a level of masochism we just don't care to revisit. We thank the 90's for their contributions to game design, and the 'crush the player's soul' dungeon master mentality, but we're moving on. We have this crazy notion that games shouldn't punish you for trying to enjoy them.

    Fact of the matter is though that the longevity in Diablo II was not made by leveling characters. You can get a character to 80 in a matter of hours. The longevity was from experimentation, customization, and the randomized item drops needed to perfect them. And that's amazingly even considering that a huge portion of the item hunt was completely ruined due to the mass proliferation of what should be insanely rare items. Longevity in Diablo is from exploration, character customization, and more specifically, killing monsters to see what they drop - not leveling.

    You can also add to this that in Diablo III killing monsters to see what they drop will not be made lucrative by explicitly predictable means, such as boss runs. Exploring entire areas, even playing from start to finish of each act, uncovering all the nooks and crannies is intended to be the way you'll be playing Inferno. You can pretend you're leveling a new character each time, if you'd like. :)
    Edited by Bashiok on 2/15/2012 1:20 AM PST
    Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by not making people have to level completely new characters just to try out a new build, we are ok with that.

    Leveling characters is cool, and some people legitimately enjoy that process, and we agree it can be fun and would still like to find ways to reward people who enjoy leveling additional characters, but being required to get through it just to try out some different skills is no longer acceptable to us. That's a level of masochism we just don't care to revisit. We thank the 90's for their contributions to game design, and the 'crush the player's soul' dungeon master mentality, but we're moving on. We have this crazy notion that games shouldn't punish you for trying to enjoy them.

    Fact of the matter is though that the longevity in Diablo II was not made by leveling characters. You can get a character to 80 in a matter of hours. The longevity was from experimentation, customization, and the randomized item drops needed to perfect them. And that's amazingly even considering that a huge portion of the item hunt was completely ruined due to the mass proliferation of what should be insanely rare items. Longevity in Diablo is from exploration, character customization, and more specifically, killing monsters to see what they drop - not leveling.


    Please please please please please let this be it

    /all these threads
    Edited by D3BETA on 2/15/2012 1:17 AM PST
    90 Tauren Paladin
    9825
    Posts: 997
    Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by not making people have to level completely new characters just to try out a new build, we are ok with that.

    Leveling characters is cool, and some people legitimately enjoy that process (me!), and we agree it can be fun and would still like to find ways to reward people who enjoy leveling additional characters, but being required to do it just to try out some different skills is no longer acceptable to us. That's a level of masochism we just don't care to revisit. We thank the 90's for their contributions to game design, and the 'crush the player's soul' dungeon master mentality, but we're moving on. We have this crazy notion that games shouldn't punish you for trying to enjoy them.

    Fact of the matter is though that the longevity in Diablo II was not made by leveling characters. You can get a character to 80 in a matter of hours. The longevity was from experimentation, customization, and the randomized item drops needed to perfect them. And that's amazingly even considering that a huge portion of the item hunt was completely ruined due to the mass proliferation of what should be insanely rare items. Longevity in Diablo is from exploration, character customization, and more specifically, killing monsters to see what they drop - not leveling.

    You can also add to this that in Diablo III killing monsters to see what they drop will not be made lucrative by explicitly predictable means, such as boss runs. Exploring entire areas, even playing from start to finish of each act, uncovering all the nooks and crannies is intended to be the way you'll be playing Inferno. You can pretend you're leveling a new character each time, if you'd like. :)


    I see no mention of PvP! Matter of time before someone pointed it out. Getting it out now before the masses pounce!

    I see your ninja edit!
    Edited by Maliken on 2/15/2012 1:26 AM PST
    85 Human Paladin
    9335
    Posts: 256
    02/15/2012 01:09 AMPosted by Bashiok
    level of masochism we just don't care to revisit

    that exactly what I was thinking ! well said bro .
    Posts: 4,117
    Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by not making people have to level completely new characters just to try out a new build, we are ok with that.

    Leveling characters is cool, and some people legitimately enjoy that process (me!), and we agree it can be fun and would still like to find ways to reward people who enjoy leveling additional characters, but being required to do it just to try out some different skills is no longer acceptable to us. That's a level of masochism we just don't care to revisit. We thank the 90's for their contributions to game design, and the 'crush the player's soul' dungeon master mentality, but we're moving on. We have this crazy notion that games shouldn't punish you for trying to enjoy them.

    Fact of the matter is though that the longevity in Diablo II was not made by leveling characters. You can get a character to 80 in a matter of hours. The longevity was from experimentation, customization, and the randomized item drops needed to perfect them. And that's amazingly even considering that a huge portion of the item hunt was completely ruined due to the mass proliferation of what should be insanely rare items. Longevity in Diablo is from exploration, character customization, and more specifically, killing monsters to see what they drop - not leveling.

    You can also add to this that in Diablo III killing monsters to see what they drop will not be made lucrative by explicitly predictable means, such as boss runs. Exploring entire areas, even playing from start to finish of each act, uncovering all the nooks and crannies is intended to be the way you'll be playing Inferno. You can pretend you're leveling a new character each time, if you'd like. :)


    Oooohh Bashiok; why is it every time I see a reply from you, the idea of kittens playing with yarn comes to mind.
    02/15/2012 01:09 AMPosted by Bashiok
    Longevity in Diablo is from exploration, character customization, and more specifically, killing monsters to see what they drop - not leveling.


    Its ALL about the loot, character customization comes from the custom loot that drops. I'd rather than focus on that then make cookies
    Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by ... pretend you're leveling a new character each time, if you'd like. :)



    This was the best post Ive ever seen from a blizz CM in years. For a few seconds I felt like if I was reading guild wars 2 forum. Way to go Blizzard. This is what the majority of nowdays gamers demand (99% of those never ever visit forums like this).


    You can also add to this that in Diablo III killing monsters to see what they drop will not be made lucrative by explicitly predictable means, such as boss runs. Exploring entire areas, even playing from start to finish of each act, uncovering all the nooks and crannies is intended to be the way you'll be playing Inferno. You can pretend you're leveling a new character each time, if you'd like. :)


    I wonder about that, from a design and psychological perspective.

    On one hand, Mephesto or Pindleskin runs were repetitive. Doing the same thing over and over again might ware thin. But you had a definite goal to your runs and knew what the piniata was.

    Not having to rely on a specific run sounds great, but then your in the instance of just running through the game and hoping something drops accidentally.

    This is the equivalent of trying to get high level runes to drop in diablo 2. The only two places that guaranteed dropped runes in D2 were both 1 time quest drops, and they didn't even drop the highest runes. You really couldn't try to go after them... so it was just 'whats the point'. If you ever set out to specifically farm a Zod rune just from running through acts over and over you would drive yourself crazy.

    Without a specific goal/pinata to focus on, after you've already cleared all the other parts of the game through inferno, there is a danger of being no direction. Having Pindleskin drop an ethereal Titan's Revenge might be just as unlikely as some random monster dropping a high level rune, but at least you knew pindle was going to drop something.

    Then again each person will differ in how they react to this, and maybe its not really a thing...

    It just reminded me of the whole 'coupon' deal. A store thought 'coupons are just an added burden, we can improve customer service by just giving them the discount upfront or in store'. But their sales actually decreased, because despite being a bit of an inconvenience, people liked having that physical thing in hand to focus on.
    85 Undead Priest
    0
    Posts: 524
    Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by not making people have to level completely new characters just to try out a new build, we are ok with that.

    Leveling characters is cool...
    My feelings put to word so eloquently and precisely. Gone are the days when irrelevant hurdles rate for difficulty. Grinding new characters because I chose a skill I didn't know was bad, or a friend recommended a build that didn't work so well is something I will never miss. The "we want everyone to experience all the content" design direction you fellows are taking makes me ecstatic.


    02/15/2012 02:01 AMPosted by Dark
    Not having to rely on a specific run sounds great, but then your in the instance of just running through the game and hoping something drops accidentally.
    I think the point here is that you have skills that you enjoy using, that are viscerally fun to slay hordes of monsters with, and you can choose any area in the game (at Inferno) and play through it and find something useful.

    A somewhat accurate analogue, I think, would be if you could play through any WoW instance at max level, and no matter where you are you have a shot at getting some good gear.
    Edited by Luphold on 2/15/2012 2:11 AM PST
    This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]