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That depends, but when you look at everything as a whole, you can see what direction the game is going in. I don't have a beta key, but I am starting to understand Blizzard's decisions.
Instead of having customization based around your character to adjust to the difficulty around you, difficulty will be based around the groups of enemies you fight and what resistances and/or buffs they have. You might be able to change skills whenever you like, but that doesn't mean you'll have the appropriate skills equipped or proper equipment to fight the next group of monsters. Players will need to equip their skills accordingly prior to each fight to survive.
People need to understand that Blizzard always tries to incorporate new concepts into their games. Diablo II was more centered around obtaining the best gear since anyone could create a perfect build (To those that disagree, I'm mainly talking about charms filling your inventory, so you know I'm right). Distribute your points incorrectly and you paid the penalty in the later levels. Your casual player would not have the patience for that. Personally, I enjoy playing a game where I'm not having to worry so much about where my next skill or experience points go. I rather think about the next fight and what strategy I'm going to use to win. It's a strategy game now and I think it's a good thing. Less button mashing and it allows a much wider audience to appreciate the game even more than Diablo II.
Edited by Kurtis on 2/22/2012 9:53 AM PST
Blizzard has already been moving away from "1 point = x% better" for a while now, so they probably wouldn't go back to that iteration. Well thought out and presented, but I would agree with Blizzard that this isn't as good as what is in patch 13 (due to reasons I've already stated on page 13).
I finally played through once with a witch doctor while keeping this post in mind and have come to some conclusions.
1) There are too many runes for any drop system where a rare item can allow for an upgrade to be actually worth the effort. There are 5 unique runes per skill. There are roughly 22 skills - 22x5=110 runes. If the runes are each upgrade let's say 5 times then you will have to collect 550 upgrade points. This seems like it would have to be far too common to make it fun.
2) I played through the beta with every char prior to this patch. With that said, I created a build that I could tear through the levels and destroy without even really utilizing a lot of the unique abilities that the characters each had. With this new system, I at first felt a bit of anger towards blizzard for tethering me to actually using the skills (ie with witch doctor I liked to melee, with the new system you cannot use the basic melee function; you have to use a skill). After a play through with the new WD I found that I had to find a completely new build for it. The new build was more fun to play, and it was definitely better to have the runes - as I unlocked the runes I started reusing skills that had become boring in my earlier play throughs, and I found them to be a lot more fun to use, now.
3) the UI definitely takes a lot more time to navigate, and it's difficult to tell what you recently unlocked. This needs to be changed. I like that you are more or less forced to experiment with the different abilities, but it would be really helpful to have some more stats on exactly what those abilities do, as well as some sort of "new unlock" notification under new abilities, or abilities that recently got new runes unlocked. Once the UI is cleaned up and made a bit more streamline this will be a pretty nice system they have in place.
For all of you guys that are commenting here based on what Blizzard, and other users have said, but don't have the beta. I feel like this change has been poorly worded and a lot of beta users aren't filling you in all the way. Check out the math that I did at the top of this comment. Look at the videos that show how unique each rune makes each ability. Basically, you get an addition to the ability that makes it a new ability with some similarities. I keep seeing posts that state things like "what if all I want is a certain build. Once I get that build I'm going to have to stick with it for the whole game!?" This is ridiculous. How do you know what ability you want when you haven't tried them all, and each char class has approximately 110 DIFFERENT abilities than any other class? You can try to figure out what you believe you want, but you won't know until you have tried everything. Also, each situation demands different skills. Odds are, they aren't going to give us that many choices without making us change every now and then.
I played the beta expecting something much different than I got based on what I have read on this forum, and the blizzard post by Jay. I am happy with the new system, and think they should keep it. However, I believe that the UI definitely needs some tweaking to make it more user friendly. I don't like that I can't see what skills are in each bracket (right click, left click, 1, 2, 3, etc.) without opening a new window, or what runes have been unlocked. I spent half a game explaining to a friend how to even use runes, because they aren't intuitive. It is easy to apply them, but difficult to figure out what exactly they are going to do (does this add damage, or just give me faster attacks at 90% damage?). I don't want to spend all of my game time looking stats up online, or trying to figure out where the rune that I unlocked is located by going through six different screens via trial and error.
Edited by D3BETA on 2/22/2012 11:38 AM PST
Yes it is best this way. QQ'rs will cry because they have a hard time applying points. Blizzard doesn't like it because it means point pumping. But really, what is the problem with it? There are more negatives without it imo.
Just thought of an idea to expand upon this topic. Rather than it being a point dump, have it be a drop (so those people are happy). Have the base rune skill be learned by level 30 or so, and these will count as level 1 runes. Each of these drops will allow you to choose which rune type to level up, such as all crimson runes. I say only allow up to rank 5 for this. Normal having an incredibly rare chance for rank 2 runes, if any. NM for rank 2 rune drops with a very very rare chance at rank 3. Hell for rank 3 runes with a very very rare chance at rank 4. Inferno for rank 4 runes with a very very rare chance at rank 5.
Using that system will allow people to continuously grow in power. Drop rates can be adjusted as needed, so they aren't candy. Oh, and of course it would get consumed on use to power up the rune-type. You can't just pump points into one skill/rune/rune-type here. If needed, 1. you cannot level to 3 unless all runes are level 2, or 2. just the rune trying to get to 3 needing to be 2 first. 1-if the droprate isn't set to semi-common, such as finding a unique (legendary? whatever the rare one is) item. 2- if the droprate is rare, and tied to only elite/champion enemies. I would think 2 would be better, in my opinion
Less inventory clutter, sense of getting progressively more powerful, item hunt, using a build you want for non-normal difficulties, and having something to strive to get other than items especially for inferno.
Yay for the OP getting me to think. +1
edited for bolding read-me's
Edited by Gáttsu on 2/22/2012 2:40 PM PST
I really wish that people would read the comments prior to making their own..
This will not work. You are talking about approximately ONE HUNDRED TEN different runes that you will be upgrading - each rune is a different skill. I thought the same way that you are, before I played the updated beta. Now, I think they are on the right track.
OP - I'm glad I saw your thread before posting a new one! :) We essentially had the same idea, with slightly different ranges:
Proposed concept for Skill & Rune progression:
Skills, Runes & Passives are all unlocked by level 40. After level 40, each level-up rewards the player with a "Skill Point" which can be applied to an unlocked Rune to increase it's effectiveness by 10%. Applying a Skill Point to a Rune will increase it's "Rank." I think an additive 10% works best, per rank, to keep each rank both simple to understand and also significant/meaningful.
Additive vs Multiplicative examples:
(additive) 65% base - 75% rank 2 - 85% rank 3 - 165% rank 10
(multiplicative) 65% base - 72% rank 2 - 79% rank 3 - 130% rank 10
(additive) 110% base - 120% rank 2 - 130% rank 3 - 210% rank 10
(multiplicative) 110% base - 121% rank 2 - 133% rank 3 - 220% rank 10
(additive) 250% base - 260% rank 2 - 270% rank 3 - 350% rank 10
(multiplicative) 250% base - 275% rank 2 - 303% rank 3 - 500% rank 10
(additive) 450% base - 460% rank 2 - 470% rank 3 - 550% rank 10
(multiplicative) 450% base - 495% rank 2 - 545% rank 3 - 900% rank 10
By level 60, a player will have unlocked 20 Skill Points, which will add to the individuality of the player's custom build by allowing them to focus (or spread) their specialization with favored skills. This adds that "custom" hands-on growth that many in the community have been asking for.
The player could then reset (or respec) their Skill Points in town with an NPC, for a cost (Gold), possibly with Deckard Cain. The idea of resetting your skill points is for people who have unlocked all skills & runes, hit the level cap, and are now interested in testing a different build (possibly to combat a new challenge faced in higher difficulties). More thought is involved in the process of the respec, as it is not done 'on-the-fly' while out adventuring.
- Lowering the level for which players can play-test various builds with skill/rune combos will make for a better "playground" for trying new things prior to hitting the level cap. Slightly favors the more casual gamer.
- Allowing players to specialize their builds further, on their own terms, will increase potency & play-style without taking away from the bonus of leveling past 40 (re: 40-60 "Dead zone"). Slightly favors the more advanced gamer to min/max their builds.
Possible concerns include: Overpowered abilities in PvP (1-shot meteors?), confusion for "new" players, and the unavoidable cookie-cutter builds that will "dominate" different aspects of the game (inferno, pvp, etc). My only real concern would be the confusion aspect for some players, because as Jay Wilson has stated, "there's no such thing as too much power." A precautionary measure to limit "overpowering" could be to place a cap on the number of ranks for an ability, maybe limiting it to 10 as a max (100% increase)... which would also force a player to spread the wealth a little with their skill points.
I originally posted this in the beta feedback section. The current system would remain but with a slight change. They could make it where tier 2 runes drop in Nightmare, tier 3 in Hell and tier 4 in Inferno. Once you find a higher tier rune you can apply it to whichever skill you'd like, but once the rune is applied, the rune is lost and that skill is now a higher tier and you're unable to pop it into another skill.
This way everyone at least gets all the T1 runes for each skill as the system currently allows but only people farming Inferno would be getting their T4 runes unlocked in the skills they want. This would allow for the hardcore players to at least have some choices when deciding which high ranking runes they want and in which skill priority. Hardcore players would also have their farming desires fulfilled if they wanted every skill to have every T4 rune possibility since they'd have to find 5 of each T4 for each skill which is over 100 runes in total. The casuals would have their customization with the base system without the hours of additional farming.
I really wish that people would read the comments prior to making their own..
I really wish you would read MY post. Maybe i have to put big bold letters in it or something. I SPECIFICALLY STATED that it is for the rune-type, such as ALL CRIMSON RUNES would get upgraded. Not each individual rune needing to be upgraded. So i am thinking of the previous system, with 5 different rune types, and the whole type gets upgraded for all skills, not the individual rune-skill. A group upgrade. Making only 20 upgrades necessary. And to spell that out for you as clearly as possible:
5 rune-types x 4 levels (2,3,4,5)= 20
Edited by Gáttsu on 2/22/2012 2:42 PM PST
No, Leave the rune system Alone.
Lol... Yeah Blizz, after spending years and years to develop this game to perfection, we'd now like you to rush the game even though so many people are unsatisfied with its current state.
Well thread is going well and no blue in sight. I don't expect them to go back to a points based system, even though this one is likely the best so far.
If they refuse on principle, then how about just something like:
"When killing an Act boss, a player can choose a rune effect of their choice to unlock"?
Honestly though, without progression of rune levels this game is looking thinner and thinner.
I kind of like this part of the idea. Introducing a little bit of control over when runes unlock while still ensuring that there's unlockables for levels 31-60 seems like a worthwhile concept to consider.
This part I'm torn on. This would essentially reintroduce the different quality grades of runes from the original runestone system, where each rune not only provided a Variant on the skill, but also five differing levels of strength to that variant. The complexity was very awesome and promised to perpetually keep us hunting for higher quality runes all the way through to Inferno.
Unfortunately, I also really support Blizzard's decision to remove those differing levels of quality/strength. At the moment, the rune system gives us five variants on each skill, and with roughly twenty-four skills for five classes, this meant Blizzard is attempting to balance the mechanics of 120 skills and 600 Rune created Variants of those skills. If we add in five differing quality levels to those five runes, we end up increasing the Variations to 3000.
Trying to balance 3000 variations is mind-bogglingly difficult. Just attempting to handle 600 rune variants is tough enough. The issue becomes even more complicated if new Character classes are added in future expansions, adding another set of skills and rune variations to balance. Some folks might argue that reducing the 3000 variations to 600, (plus the original 120 skills) removes the "Customization" from the game. Personally, I feel that 120 skills plus 600 unique variations is still provides more than enough customization, even in today's modern gaming scene.
By removing the different ranks, but retaining all the different runes, the Developers have not only made it easier for them to get us a faster release date for the game, but they've also helped to head off some possible delays in developing future content patches and expansions.
Overall, I think some of your ideas are very interesting, and could be useful starting points for exploring potential alternatives.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4079841941#1 - thread dedicated to suggesting new rune system ideas if anyone's interested
I haven't seen any ideas that don't somehow incorporate one of the 2 above ideas (besides patch 13...). If we can come up with ideas that Blizzard hasn't already shot down, let's do it! If the ideas are just variants of the above then Blizzard has already shot them down and deemed "not fun". However, if there is a variant of the above 2 items that doesn't have the negatives associated with it, that's something... Rune points though, isn't one of those ideas. It still has the negatives pointed out by Blizzard.
I also don't get this idea of wanting to limit your skill choices to drops... I want my gear limited to drops, not my skills.
Diablo 2 was all about planning out your skills and then leveling up to get there. During all of this, you were hunting for better items to equip.
Diablo 3 is all about planning out your skills, if you want, and then leveling up to get there. However, D3 also now incorporates the ability to try out new "skills" on the fly and experiment with new combos to your hearts content. During all of this, you are hunting for better items to equip (or crafting/buying items if you're not lucky).
It sounds improved...
In Diablo 2, you had access to all of your skills by level 30. After that, you got points to increase the power of those you wanted to. (ex: 2% increase to damage)
In Diablo 3, we have access to all of our skills by level 30. After that, we acquire specific optional runes at specific levels. These runes usually cause a variant to the skill to have a completely different mechanic.
This sounds vastly improved...
In Diablo 2, the new skill acquiring process ended at level 30. You only put points into skills you already had not receiving anything new the rest of the game.
In Diablo 3, the new skill acquiring process ends at max level. You continue to receive new "skills" during the entire journey.
This sounds like an RPG to me... An adventure of continued improvement, personally customized by which skills you wish to use from those that you have "learned" along the way.
We've always been limited to use what we have available to us. That's nothing new. That's an aspect of RPG's...
My proposed solution.
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