Diablo® III

Naked@60: 73.16%(Dodge) + 58%(dr) = 888%EH

I didnt read all posts but the current formula for dex to dodge is:

Dex 1-100 = .1 per
Dex 100+ = .025 per

Make sure that your doing the proper math on calculating your dodge based off of Dex


yep, I did.
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"the guardians path" requires you to use two one-handed weapons, therefore you lose damage in comparison to a two-handed weapon.
"mantra of evasion" restrains you from using "mantra of conviction", thus lowering the damage dealt to your opponents (from all sources!).
"fists of thunder" provides dodge for only two seconds, which forces you to use it constantly. so you can't use a generator with higher damage.
using "dashing strike" every three seconds to uphold its effect, would cost you 8 spirit per second. therefore you couldn't use your spirit-spenders that often, reducing your average damage again.

as you can see, concentrating on defense weakens your offense considerably. and if your enemies live twice as long, you will need twice the defense to just even it out.
in addition, you are considering nothing but skills. the monk's skills simply concentrate on defense, while the barb specialises in offense (for example, how many possibilities are there for your monk to raise critical hit chance and/or damage?). therefore you would need defensive equip for the barb und could use offensive equip with the monk, to reach the same damage with both classes (which MUST be possible, you are completly neglecting the damage we deal).

regards
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"the guardians path" requires you to use two one-handed weapons, therefore you lose damage in comparison to a two-handed weapon.
"mantra of evasion" restrains you from using "mantra of conviction", thus lowering the damage dealt to your opponents (from all sources!).
"fists of thunder" provides dodge for only two seconds, which forces you to use it constantly. so you can't use a generator with higher damage.
using "dashing strike" every three seconds to uphold its effect, would cost you 8 spirit per second. therefore you couldn't use your spirit-spenders that often, reducing your average damage again.

as you can see, concentrating on defense weakens your offense considerably. and if your enemies live twice as long, you will need twice the defense to just even it out.
in addition, you are considering nothing but skills. the monk's skills simply concentrate on defense, while the barb specialises in offense (for example, how many possibilities are there for your monk to raise critical hit chance and/or damage?). therefore you would need defensive equip for the barb und could use offensive equip with the monk, to reach the same damage with both classes (which MUST be possible, you are completly neglecting the damage we deal).

regards


1) I would bet a monk dual-wielding out-damages a monk w/ a 2H. You have to realize you cannot compare a monk to a barb. Barb's generate rage so much more easily than a monk can generate spirit. Giving up that 15% ias and 15% dodge from DW to go with a 2H is a joke, seriously.
2) Fists of Thunder has a very very fast attack speed, like 2 attacks per second
3) Everything else in your post...when you go to Inferno, you are not going to be like, damn I wish I had Mantra of Conviction up when you are dying so often.
4) To continue with (3) the best defense is not a strong offense in Inferno, it is actually the other way around. Give me over 500% effective health instead of 100% more damage any day of the week.
Edited by Vixen on 3/17/2012 6:06 PM PDT
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Added an effective health calculation to this build, also swapped out Seize the Initiative which I am souring on. Let's say you have 300 Dexterity at 60, StI only adds 300 Armor to your dr which is pretty damn small considering max Armor caps out at like 30k?
I kinda hope this is the case because I ALWAYS pick this over everything else. Would be nice if the other passives were effective alternatives.
dodge reference:
http://armadagaming.com/showthread.php?419-Dodge-Testing&p=2436&viewfull=1#post2436

dr reference:
http://armadagaming.com/showthread.php?459-Armor-Resistances-and-Effective-Health
Ummm WOW.... EPIC intel.... I had assumed diminishing returns were just that!?!? It seems as though Dodge & %Dmg.Red. has no such diminishing returns AT ALL, in fact the opposite!?! Though I don't think I like this because it leads to boring builds focused on stacking Dmg.red. & Dodge because they end up being more effective then everything else? I hope Blizz recognizes this so there is a bit of balance (maybe they already have?). On further consideration maybe exponential defence is well balanced because lower dmg builds(more focused on survival) suffer greatly with reduced farming speed(less exp, less loot, less healing from globes, less life leech) in which case I DO like this design a lot.

03/17/2012 06:03 PMPosted by Vixen
I would bet a monk dual-wielding out-damages a monk w/ a 2H.
I would disagree, check out these premium 2 hander moves :D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#Vikfdj!!..Zccc not to mention every spirit spender (though you might cast them less due to slightly lower attack speed / spirit generator speed)
Edited by Candle on 3/17/2012 11:44 PM PDT
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1) I would bet a monk dual-wielding out-damages a monk w/ a 2H. You have to realize you cannot compare a monk to a barb. Barb's generate rage so much more easily than a monk can generate spirit. Giving up that 15% ias and 15% dodge from DW to go with a 2H is a joke, seriously.

compared to attacking with a two-handed weapon, dual wielding brings you 46% higher attackspeed. this results in a higher spirit-generation, but due to the lower damage you will need more attacks and hence more spirit. when using defensive abilities (which don't scale with weapon damage) you would clearly profit from the higher speed/generation, but you will probably use more offensive than defensive abilities (and be it only because of the defensive abilities's cooldown). and if we obtain another source of spirit-regeneration through skills or items the slower weapon might benefit more from it.
then lets take a look at our weapons. the best fist weapon deals 245 damage/second - that would be 282 damage/second including the bonus to our attackspeed - while the best daibo deals 480 damage/second. although the second weapon may have some nice stats and dual wielding profits more from an absolute increase in damage due to the higher speed, I don't see ANY way to close a gap this large! in my opinion a two-handed weapon will definitely deal way more damage - which has some defensive value too, because dead enemies deal no damage.
just now we've compared the weapons regarding damage/second, but as Candle already pointed out, there are some skills based upon the weapon-damage itself. since the daibo deals 150% more raw damage than the fist weapon, these effects are cleary weaker while dual wielding. and the most interesting skill here would be "seven-sided strike", because due to its cooldown our attack speed doesn't matter. if the skill is indeed based upon the damage itself - not the damage/second - it deals a lot more damage with a two-handed weapon.

3) Everything else in your post...when you go to Inferno, you are not going to be like, damn I wish I had Mantra of Conviction up when you are dying so often.

the monk is clearly the most defensive character in the game. as you already said, the dodge we specialise in raises our effective health non-linear, opposed to every other defensive concept. do you really think, the monk would have to use EVERY defensive possibility he has to stay alive in inferno? then what should all the other characters with far worse defensive capabilities do - just stay in hell? if you could't even survive inferno without "mantra of evasion", playing a witchdoctor would be nothing more than suicide.

regards
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@TitanSeal

Given that only 1 fury spender is offensive and all offensive attacks are based only on 100% weapon damage and not some multiplier, dual wield would still be more effective.

Let's just look at the 15% dodge received from Guardian's Path:

Base dodge naked @60 + The Guardian's Path + MoE + Fists of Thunder + Dashing Strike = 60% dodge. With the 58% dr I spelled out in the first post, this comes to 595% EH.

Now take out the 15% dodge, dodge drops down to: 52.5% and EH drops down to 501%.

So just by going from 2H to DW you trade 1 passive slot for 15% dodge + 15% ias and as a result you lose 0.94% EH points (essentially the equivalent of 1 full life).

So now you need to heal with more frequency since your have lower EH, but your attack speed is essentially ~15% slower so it takes you ~15% longer to generate spirit. I put tilde's in there since I am sure there is some math that adjusts those figures by a point or 2.

IMHO, whatever increase in damage you yield from a 2H you lose in survivability since the number of mobs damaging you will likely always be greater then the number of mobs you damage and there is no multiple on the damage you deal (thus reducing the benefit of any higher dps weapon).

I have not even mentioned weapon damage variance, fewer hits per minute for a higher damaging slower weapon for example will yield a less consistent amount of damage compared to two faster weapons where the damage variance will narrower given the number of attacks that can be made over the same period of time.
Edited by Vixen on 3/18/2012 7:09 AM PDT
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@I0032, idle/unusable? lmfao
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So just by going from 2H to DW you trade 1 passive slot for 15% dodge + 15% ias and as a result you lose 0.94% EH points (essentially the equivalent of 1 full life).

So now you need to heal with more frequency since your have lower EH, but your attack speed is essentially ~15% slower so it takes you ~15% longer to generate spirit. I put tilde's in there since I am sure there is some math that adjusts those figures by a point or 2.
I agree Vixen, but wont we also take reduced dmg from monsters dieing sooner? The heals you speak of will come from globe drops and MAYBE life leech(not much)? I definitely think this is the case, but I think your numbers are all RIGHT Vixen. I think Blizz intentionally is making defensive stats / abilities epic to counter the fact that you will Exp slower, heal from globes less, take reduced dmg from being in combat longer, and gather loot slower.
Edited by Candle on 3/18/2012 11:26 AM PDT
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03/18/2012 11:34 AMPosted by D3BETA
@I0032, idle/unusable? lmfao


can't debate properly?

pull a card out the logical fallacy chart. Also way to completely ignore all the important parts


You my friend is the one that has debate problems. This isn't the first time you have come into a thread to muck it up. The very first sentence in my original post said this build could not be sustained and yet you continue to argue against it by saying,
but where are you going to get the spirit to keep up dashing + mantra + cyclone , or 150 spirit/3sec?


and

what's the point of proposing a build that have tons of idle and unusable skill?


In my last post I was laughing at your childish insult of idle/unusable skills.

If you can't "debate" nice, don't "debate".

You can complain all you want about dodge not being a real resistance, I have taken this from another thread:
If you're concerned about the "long run" average effect of dodge, then you can essentially treat dodge as another resistance. If you have multiple multiplicative sources of resistance, (R1, R2, .... Rn) then your effective health is essentially the product of the factors 1/(1-Ri) where Ri indicates each resistance of index i. Thus for effective health H and character life L, we have

H = L*Π{i=1...n}[1/(1-Ri)]


You bring nothing to the table here so please move along and find some other thread to troll in.
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This isn't WoW, stop wowifying D3. There's a difference between criticizing and reading comprehension. Like I have said this isn't the first thread you have went off on a tangent to be a nuisance, welcome to ignore.
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meow
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03/18/2012 08:19 AMPosted by D3BETA
Anyhow, I am almost sure you're using effective health incorrectly. I don't ever recall it being used for avoidance stats as it is only useful for armor, health, monster level and (in case of diablo) resistance. Those stats effectively increases your health in a literal sense, while avoidance stats like dodge is less predictable and goes in a different category
AND let's not forget that in PvP people will have Expertise to bust through monks dodge chance. Err, wait where did my Expertise go?....
This isn't WoW, stop wowifying D3. There's a difference between criticizing and reading comprehension. Like I have said this isn't the first thread you have went off on a tangent to be a nuisance, welcome to ignore.
Agreed, he is trolling. It is OBVIOUS dodge is included in Effective health formula. The point of EH is to determine what has the best influence on making the health last as long as possible and dodge does EXACTLY that. Just ignore 10032, hes just having a temper tantrum? Go back to my previous reply and comment on it :D
Edited by Candle on 3/19/2012 12:56 PM PDT
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So just by going from 2H to DW you trade 1 passive slot for 15% dodge + 15% ias and as a result you lose 0.94% EH points (essentially the equivalent of 1 full life).

So now you need to heal with more frequency since your have lower EH, but your attack speed is essentially ~15% slower so it takes you ~15% longer to generate spirit. I put tilde's in there since I am sure there is some math that adjusts those figures by a point or 2.
I agree Vixen, but wont we also take reduced dmg from monsters dieing sooner? The heals you speak of will come from globe drops and MAYBE life leech(not much)? I definitely think this is the case, but I think your numbers are all RIGHT Vixen. I think Blizz intentionally is making defensive stats / abilities epic to counter the fact that you will Exp slower, heal from globes less, take reduced dmg from being in combat longer, and gather loot slower.

As far as killing things faster and not needing as much healing, it's one of those things where we'll have to play the game (particularly at the higher levels) to find the right balance for how much defense we can get away with. It is fun to theorycraft this stuff but in reality we'll be making our builds around our gear. If we have some really sick Daibo drop for us we won't be dual-wielding and our builds will reflect that.
Edited by Vixen on 3/20/2012 7:42 AM PDT
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