Diablo® III

Types of Wizard based on weapon/speed(AP/sec)

100 Human Paladin
13565
Posts: 4,060
I was just thinking, it seems like there's at least three major divergent paths you can take with regards to AP on your wizard.

1) The 1-hand/offhand wizard. This is going to be a high DPS wizard, but they are going to run out of AP fast, especially if they have +attack speed items equipped. You're spending more AP per second, doing high DPS, but doing intermediate Damage/AP. A lot of wizard orbs (books) offer +maxAP and +AP regen as stats, as well as +damage. If you're playing this kind of wizard, it's likely that you're going to need at least 1 Signature spell that has runed AP regen attached. Each of the signature skills has 1 rune that regens AP, and this is no coincidence in my opinion. I don't feel it's safe for this type of build in higher difficulty levels to be waiting on AP to regen too often. They'll need to ACTIVELY regen AP.

2) The 1-hand/shield wizard. This is going to be the worst DPS wizard, but they're going to have strong defenses. AP will run out at about the same speed as wizard #1, but damage/AP will be measurably lower. However, damage taken will also be lower, leaving some room for additional casting of offensive rather than defensive spells more often.

3) The 2-hand wizard. This is going to be intermediate DPS, but they're going to have the slowest AP/sec spent, and the highest Damage/AP because they have the lowest attack speed. This is the efficient wizard. They're going to have to rely less on AP regen items and abilities, and might be able to have a vastly different AP stable spell loadout than wizard #1 or wizard #2. A good example here would be to use Arcane Orb as your main damage spell, then fill in with signatures when you run out of AP. This is in stark contrast to wizard #1 (and #2 to some extent) who must use Signature spells with regen attached to sustain themselves in intense situations.
Edited by Dekkar on 3/16/2012 11:24 PM PDT
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Replacing a signature spell with an ability that increases % damage makes 2H vastly superior damage wise to 1h/oh.

In the end, it depends on what kind of 2h and 1h/oh you find.

Rare items will have plenty of survivability - and there may even be rare shields with offensive stats on them that just end up being perfect. Offhands may be a little better but replacing 1 item with another item that may have all the offensive stats you want can't be said to be reducing your damage all that much. It would be a smaller loss the more Int you have. Although potentially large if orbs have +damage and shields do not.
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I'm pretty sure its completely the opposite. wand/orb users will have the best AP regen and staves/2h will have slower Ap regen but higher damage to AP efficiency.

If you use signature spells that have AP regen runes in them or use prodigy passive, then the faster you can shoot off signature spells the faster your AP will regen.
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Nova,

A 1.4 attacks per second (1h) will cost 28 AP Per Second to cast Disintegrate.

A 1.0 Aps (2h) will cost 20 Per Second to cast.

8 per second is no small feat.

You have to have every rune in the book with signature spells and passives to regen that difference. AND be casting signature spells 1 per second - which will never happen if you're using AP-spending spells.

AND, 2h users will be able to not get that signature spell and not get those runes/passives and will be able to get tons and tons of damage.

Not using a signature spell is a potential 20%, 15%, group 20% with a 40% uptime, group 15% with a 25% uptime, etc boost on active skills alone. On passives it is a potential group damage boost of 10% (perma if you keep it up - fairly easy) or 20% self damage buff, or even a 15% self damage buff.

This being true, AP spell users will naturally gravitate to 2Hs if the damage ends up being better. Burst it is without a doubt 2H.

BUT. 1h/oh users will have MOST of the damage of 2h plus free casts to use how they please. Any spell that does not deal damage it is beneficial to have a 1h/oh instead. Diamond Skin (5/6) Frost Nova (5/6) Slow Time(6/6), Teleport (6/6) Mirror Images (5?/6) are just a few examples.

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I'm pretty sure its completely the opposite. wand/orb users will have the best AP regen and staves/2h will have slower Ap regen but higher damage to AP efficiency.

If you use signature spells that have AP regen runes in them or use prodigy passive, then the faster you can shoot off signature spells the faster your AP will regen.

1h will indeed have faster regen, but the AP cost increase will be greater than the AP regen increase from faster signatures since your weapon speed doesn't increase your passive regen rate. Passive regen is a very large part of your overall regen, easily more than half even if you go Attunement + Prodigy or something. Bottom line is that 1h will be spending a larger portion of their time regenning than 2h.
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100 Human Paladin
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Posts: 4,060
03/17/2012 12:12 AMPosted by Heratli
BUT. 1h/oh users will have MOST of the damage of 2h plus free casts to use how they please. Any spell that does not deal damage it is beneficial to have a 1h/oh instead. Diamond Skin (5/6) Frost Nova (5/6) Slow Time(6/6), Teleport (6/6) Mirror Images (5?/6) are just a few examples.


This is a huge thing to be aware of.

If you have your bar loaded with utility-type and defensive skills, especially ones that cost no AP, you have a lot more time to cast damaging spells if your cast rate is faster.

In addition, in all the shields I've crafted and found over the course of time I've been in the beta (since patch 11), I haven't found a single shield with + damage of any kind on it. That's not to say they don't exist, but they might be hard to come by if they do exist, or they don't appear until later levels. On the other hand, offhand items such as wizard orbs/books frequently come with +damage on them, as well as commonly having +maxAP and +AP regen on them.

Another important thing to be aware of is using a weapon with too large of a damage spread. It might be slightly higher DPS, and that's good for channeled spells like Disintigrate and Ray of Frost, but if you prefer to use spells like Arcane Orb or Meteor as your main AP spenders, then a weapon with a low minimum damage and a high maximum damage might be a poor choice.
With a weapon like that, sometimes you'll get your big spell hitting for really low numbers, and other times, you'll get it hitting for really big numbers. I've already seen this in the beta using a weapon with a large damage spread. It could be the difference in having to fire off extra AP spending spells to kill the stragglers that didn't take the higher damage, and taking them out in the amount of casts you already did. Alternatively, you may have to fire off signature spells to finish the stragglers. If you have a weapon that has a more consistent damage range (or +minimum damage items on you), that scenario is less likely.
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True.

AP Regen or AP per crit? I haven't seen regen myself but that would be an insane stat unless it was in the tenths of a point per second.
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100 Human Paladin
13565
Posts: 4,060
True.

AP Regen or AP per crit? I haven't seen regen myself but that would be an insane stat unless it was in the tenths of a point per second.


AP per crit sorry. Other classes have regen stats, but it seems like they want the wizard to focus more on critical hits.
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Bleh. It really depends how AP per crit works. If you hit 20 targets with spectral blade that's 60 hits. If you have 20% crit that's 12 crits. It would be absolutely ridiculous.

I'd imagine it's a maximum of one proc per cast.

We'll see.
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100 Draenei Mage
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Posts: 3,544
Based on everything i've read here, unless you're part of a group and you do only damage, you're going to want wand/oh for inferno simply for the quickness and brevity of your spell casts which it provides.
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03/18/2012 12:01 AMPosted by D3BETA
I suspect that Wand/Shield will be very popular amongst HC Wizards, but that 2H won't find much of a home at all. Even with high-AP spells like Meteor that would be great to have hit very hard, having the 1H/OH setup for fast casting still probably wins out due to things like using Signature spells to regain AP for your next cast.

As I've said above, slower weapons are actually more AP efficient while maintaining the same DPS. You'd be able to cast dump spells longer and have to spam signatures less. The tradeoff is that your damage chunks are larger so you risk having a bit more overkill against weaker mobs.
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03/18/2012 12:01 AMPosted by D3BETA
I suspect that Wand/Shield will be very popular amongst HC Wizards, but that 2H won't find much of a home at all. Even with high-AP spells like Meteor that would be great to have hit very hard, having the 1H/OH setup for fast casting still probably wins out due to things like using Signature spells to regain AP for your next cast.


You are correct but not because of AP requirements.

For Survivability spells - let's say Frost Nova, Teleport, Mirror Image, Diamond Skin, Slow Time, etc

Casting these quicker (except 1 frost nova, 1 diamond skin, and 1 mirror image, maybe 1 teleport) will only benefit you.

Spells that do no damage don't get any benefit from weapon damage %s but do benefit from attack speed. If you're fighting mobs that are very fast and you want to guarantee your survival you may use multiple survivability spells. Very fast melee mobs you want to Frost nova, but rapid fire ranged (or many ranged whose shots are staggered for argument's sake) you'll want the benefits of Slow Time. Using both of these with a 2h will happen in a second, (1aps) using both of these with a 1h (1.4s) will take .73~ seconds. There's a lot to say for that difference.

Casting Unruned Ray of Frost - let's say - has a 20 AP cost. 1 attack per second is obviously 20 ap per second. 1.4 attacks per second means every .73 seconds you're casting another spell - another ray of frost - with the additional cost. This means 28 AP per second. AP regeneration stays the same, which basically means you'll be able to cast 10 spells of ray of frost in any 10 second period. You have 10 casts with a 2h, but 14 with a 1h. You won't be able to cast RoF 10 seconds continuously with 1H but you will with the 2h (1hs can have slower speeds and I've seen 2hs with 1.4 speeds as well but for analysis pretend 1.0 and 1.4 2h/1h). This means you will do more damage - especially with runes that increase damage over time - with one particular ability with 2H than 1H. 1H has to make up a lot of damage with those extra 4 casts, which can only be signature spells. Regenerating enough for a RoF in normal situations would probably take 5 casts (We're assuming no passives, just the runed for now. Prodigy passive could be replaced with Glass Cannon for 15% more damage for the 2h. Just leave it out for argument's sake) which means it's not particularly useful for the short term.

2H doesn't necessarily double 1H damage but it is better again, especially for void ray type runes, but 1h/oh is always - always - better for survivability, except if mobs have enraged timers (lol hardcore players mad) or you are able to kill mobs fairly quickly, in which case it doesn't matter.

Yes, I agree. 2H is probably more for softcore players. I will definitely be using them in softcore, and 1h/oh will be my hardcore build.

BUT: Damage modifiers on Frost Nova and Slow Time will benefit the group when cast more quickly - as well as you - but there's no particular reason to think 2Hs can't use those spells. The difference would only really be seen over long fights in terms of cooldown stacking and spells being cast quicker would mean more over the span of the fight - ~.3 seconds sooner. Doubt it will matter except on boss fights.
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03/18/2012 01:57 AMPosted by D3BETA
I suspect that Wand/Shield will be very popular amongst HC Wizards, but that 2H won't find much of a home at all. Even with high-AP spells like Meteor that would be great to have hit very hard, having the 1H/OH setup for fast casting still probably wins out due to things like using Signature spells to regain AP for your next cast.

As I've said above, slower weapons are actually more AP efficient while maintaining the same DPS. You'd be able to cast dump spells longer and have to spam signatures less. The tradeoff is that your damage chunks are larger so you risk having a bit more overkill against weaker mobs.


We have to remember that this is Diablo. You may get a sick 1h and a sick 2h and your offhand is crap, so you'll probably use the 2h. You may get decent 1h/oh and a sick 2h and the damage ends up being better.

For damage purposes I'll probably use the Blizzard Calculator. If the damage isn't significantly different and you aren't using charging spells, then the survivability from the 1h/oh probably tips the scale to its favor.
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I did some testing with this before, could channell Arcane Torrent for 10-11 seconds with .9 APS, and 5-6 seconds with 1.56 APS. (100 arcane power +10/sec over 5-10 seconds, the regenerated amount in that time adds to the total time casting)

Though they were both the exact same DPS weapons, so the damage I did was pretty much exactly the same(400 dmg in 5 seconds with faster, 800 damage in 10 seconds with slow), the faster one just dished it out faster, though that leaves time for more attacking afterwards with a signature.

Though if the signature only does 300 damage in the next 5 seconds you've potentially lost some damage, but you're probably dealing a lot more crits nad hitting more overall mobs.


I think there are a lot of potential builds, AP regen with a slow 2 hand weapon, like some of those legendary 2-hand swords which have 1300 DPS will be some heavy damage, no need for a signature so you can just stack damage skill bonuses and AP regen.

For burst skill users like meteor or blizzard I think Power Hungry will be a very useful skill, though it depends on if there's trash mobs in inferno and later difficulties to feed globes from you get the +30 AP per globe even when your ally picks it up slightly off screen.

If you kill the minions SK spawns and grab some globes you can pretty much get an endless supply of arcane orb casts in AP from health globes, almost feels overpowered, I love using it on Jar, endless orbs.


It's actually kind of hard to think of what the best build would be for a class that spends it's AP as fast as possible, it's more likely to end up as a crit based build, with 1h/oh, channelling spells seem less beneficial so you're probably better off going for burst skills or CC or archon, with critical mass or maxing crit for AP/regen/extra dmg etc...
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Depending on how high AP per crit can stack (I'm assuming only one crit per cast will count towards it) High crit 1h/oh builds will end up being better.

Power Hungry is nice sometimes but it doesn't help you kill that first minion. In most aoe situations (rare packs in inferno - where it actually matters) you will get a lot more use out of generally hitting harder. You have to move onto those orbs to get the AP as well, which may not put you in a great position and interrupts casting, reducing total damage done. If an AP spell hits for 200% and a signature hits for 100% and you have a 1h/oh at 1.4 aps, moving for 1.5 seconds to grab an orb that gives you 1 signature spell will put you behind overall, although you may feel more powerful because you'll be hitting harder.

Movement is more detrimental to 1H/OH than it is to 2H. You still regen the same amount while moving, and AP per damage wise, 2h will always win, making it even better in comparison.

When you have to kite a lot and only use a spell here and there, it's hard to justify using a 1h/oh over 2h when both are equal 'quality'.
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100 Human Paladin
13565
Posts: 4,060
03/18/2012 06:17 PMPosted by Heratli
We have to remember that this is Diablo. You may get a sick 1h and a sick 2h and your offhand is crap, so you'll probably use the 2h. You may get decent 1h/oh and a sick 2h and the damage ends up being better.


This is true, but in the event you really want to fill something in, there's always the Auction House. I, for one, won't be using the Auction House much, except to fill in that 1 slot of gear that just won't freaking drop for me (whatever slot that is, there always seems to be one lol).

And as far as justifying using a 1H/OH over a 2H, I think close quarters combat in a dungeon is justification enough. I can see myself carrying around both a 1H/OH and a 2H of approximately equal DPS. I'd use the 1H/OH when going in tight places with hallways where monsters are numerous, and when I'm in outside areas where monsters are more spread out and I'm moving more, with less frantic of a spell casting pace, I'd use the 2H.
Edited by Dekkar on 3/18/2012 9:02 PM PDT
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^ Think using that method + giving up an extra passive for PH on top of it, +30 AP per globe, is a few extra casts of a higher tier meteor over time.

I wouldn't do a PH build without a signature as well, since it's only really good for burst skills that require 40-60 AP, and you need a source of damage when you're on down time., I'd probably use PH as an alternative to prodigy, though testing is needed to compare them.

Combining +AP from crits(going off sites you can get up to +10 per crit across 4 item slots?! +40 AP per crit?, really doubt that it stacks maybe 10 per crit max, but still when used with Electrocute x6 targets rune) and PH could keep you casting a lot of AoE bursts.

The damage from crits has to be taken into consideration as well since crits naturally are higher than normal damage.


That being said my favorite skills in D3 are Disintegrate and Meteor so either way I plan to have both a 1h/oh burst build based around Meteor Shower and a 2h channelling build based around Disintegrate, probably with a branch of the Disintegrate build which depends on Archon using it's Disintegrate-like skill taking advantage of the high AP regen.


Another thing to consider the max AP pool seems to be around 225=100 +25x3(items) +20x2 (skills)
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Max AP pool is only good at the very beginning of combat. If AP per crit stacks pretty high and works on EVERY crit but only 1 per spell cast then 1h/oh with Arcane Orb will be able to last indefinitely with a crit+ap per crit + int build.

IDK - it's really hard to know for sure until release, but we can all pretty much agree +attack speed is going to be garbage unless AP per crit gets into the 20+ per crit.
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100 Human Paladin
13565
Posts: 4,060
Max AP pool is only good at the very beginning of combat. If AP per crit stacks pretty high and works on EVERY crit but only 1 per spell cast then 1h/oh with Arcane Orb will be able to last indefinitely with a crit+ap per crit + int build.

IDK - it's really hard to know for sure until release, but we can all pretty much agree +attack speed is going to be garbage unless AP per crit gets into the 20+ per crit.


If you're going with a very heavy burst setup, +MaxAP could be a decent stat if it means the difference between flattening an entire monster pack before they can react, and having them come after you, forcing you to use defensive spells.

I don't think I personally will be using much +MaxAP gear myself though. I enjoy the tactical nature of running around and 'outsmarting' the stupid monsters.
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