Diablo® III

Nephalem Valor Buff

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Posts: 614
It should just be like this:

Stacks up to 3 (maybe 4 or 5), disappears when you leave the game. Persists through deaths. Disappears on gear/skill swaps.

I feel like this would be most effective. If you don't have that much time/get disconnected/join a new game it's not that big of a deal because you don't have to kill that many packs to get your stacks. Also, 3 stacks is a high enough amount where you aren't going to purposely start over.

Having the buff persist through both leaving the game and dying sounds cool and easy, but like where's the work? It really wouldn't take that long to build up a few stacks. If the buff was just available all (well most) of the time it kindof takes away the specialness of achieving your stacks. If it persists through leaving the game they might as well just make it so that the buff is up all the time (please don't lol).
Posts: 4,790
But there are skills that are better suited to killing single targets (or surviving them) than grinding through packs of monsters.
Will we really be using bash instead of cleave at 60? If so, why even have cleave?
Not being able to change skills is a bit stink imo. It discourages experimentation once you get the last rune unlock. Not to mention discouraging changing skills to better suited ones (perhaps you need the heal, but you'll struggle on without it to not lose the buff and just change skills next time).
If its a timed buff it also discourages going back to town to salvage.

Encourage grinding, don't discourage the rest of your game.


That is such a weak argument. This is a benefit for not switching. If you want to experiment than do it. Not like your going to spend a year trying out new skills and skill runes.
Posts: 4,790

03/22/2012 02:40 PMPosted by Puddingtime
Are we going to be able to test this in beta?


Level 13 < Level 60

First they are still developing and balancing this, second you are not 60 in the beta and I don't believe they will make this for below 60, so I would say no.
Posts: 4,790
For the Nephalem buff to achieve its goal, as stated in Bashioks post, it should:

Take time to build up
Which means:
1) It must stack
2) It must stack to some reasonably high number.
Rumors are it migth stack to less than 5, which seems to be ineffective. If you can quickly reach the max stack, then it wont discourage people from farming a small area over and over (through quest reset) nor will it discourage people from resetting the buff to take advantage of skill respeccing whenever it offers a reasonable advantage. Two of the major goals with this system.
3) The best way to do this is probably a stacking buff with diminishing return. Such as having a max stack of 50 or 100 elite kills, with each kill offering fairly low MF/GF increase after a while. The first 5 elite kills could offer the full boss drop reward, with the rest of the stacks only offering MF/GF increase.

Offer a substantial reward
Follows from the above argument. If the MF/GF bonus is low, it wont discourage people from the behaviour Blizzard does not wish to support.


The issue which can arise is how to make a buff which takes time to build up, without hurting everyone who only play in short sessions (or who are unlucky enough to disconnect). Which is why I think Blizzard is looking at this in the wrong way.

The buff should not go away when you log out
Let it stay if you log out, don't punish people for taking a break.
As long as you continue the game where you left it, as in not resetting your current quest progress, people should keep the buff they had when they left!
By only resetting the buff if you reset your quest progress, you achieve the exact same goals as you have currently. You still encourage people to keep playing in their current quest progress, you encourage them to move forward in the game rather than farm one area over and over.
But at the same time you do not discourage people from playing short sessions or taking breaks.

And on top of these benefits, you can allow the buff to stack higher, to take longer time to build up (as argued in the first segment), to make the buff more meaningful.

Losing the buff
People has to lose the buff every so often - requiring them to start rebuilding the buff anew, repicking a quest to start from, and freely allowing them to respec without consequences every so often.
Allowing the buff to stay between sessions means it is even more important that it can and will be lost in other ways.
However this is already partially solved in the quest selection system. Even if you keep your current quest progress, at some point you will have got through the whole game, and be forced to reset your current quest progression no matter what. People will be rewarded for playing through large parts of the game however before doing so (even over multiple sessions).

Even so, the buff could have a duration which only gets refreshed by progressing through the game (quests or acts). The durations should be long enough to allow people to explore the game to its fullest, but keep them from trying to stay in one area farming elites without progressing (while not resetting their quest progress either - which on its own makes boss farming impossible in this concept).
A reasonable duration could be maybe 4-6 hours in-game time, and refreshed every time you completed a main quest. This way, when you run out of quests over your multiple-session play-through, the buff will go away.

TLDR:
The Nephalem buff should last through logout, and instead reset on quest progression resets!
This would both benefit casual gamers (+ unlucky disconnects), and allow Blizzard to make the buff stack higher (= require more elite kills), to the benefit of the whole Nephalem system and the goals Blizzard has with it (which is discouraging repeated farming of small areas and abusing respeccing too much).


It has to have a timer to make the buff go away, the reason being is people like me will just leave themselves in games and find ways to glitch themselves active. I used to do that all the time in Diablo 2 so I could get the World Event. I had 29 Annihilus from leaving my game active.
11 Night Elf Warrior
0
Posts: 254
This is by far one of the smartest things that couldve been done with this game!
Posts: 941
03/23/2012 06:13 AMPosted by Rolo
While there are millions of skill builds available to players, we don’t want players swapping skills regularly to beat specific encounters as they come up


but you designed the game giving the user the ability to do this....why then?

so if someone made a mistake with their build they wouldn't:
A) re-roll and get frustrated
B) get frustrated that they need to pay to respec
C) just plain old get frustrated and quit the game for good

Why do people always need to try to find the easy way out in life?
87 Orc Death Knight
4000
Posts: 45
03/21/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Bigs
?? - how is it EVER a good idea to only give one member of the group who was lucky enough to last hit anything special?

He wasn't saying it was a good idea he was asking if it applies to all in a group.
90 Troll Shaman
10160
Posts: 1,553
I really like this idea. It sounds like you guys are still developing this part though and I have a couple ideas or things to at least consider. I think a diminishing returns approach would be best. Something like this:

1 kill- 1 stack
3 kills - 2 stacks total
6 kills - 3 stacks total
10 kills - 4 stacks total
15 kills - 5 stacks total

I think a direct 1 to 1 kill per stack is a bit to easy (maybe, non of us have played end game yet). It should also be on a timer, probably somewhere around 15-30 minutes. It should be long enough to give you a bit of a cushion, but not so long that you can diddle around. A champion kill would reset the timer. I also think that once a boss is killed, the buff is used up and you need to kill more packs before the next boss.

But overall, this is an awesome idea, and I look forward to hearing how you guys get this working.
Interesting, we'll see how it turns out.
Posts: 106
03/23/2012 06:13 AMPosted by Rolo
While there are millions of skill builds available to players, we don’t want players swapping skills regularly to beat specific encounters as they come up


but you designed the game giving the user the ability to do this....why then?


Obviously, so you have a choice. Not so that you can make every fight in the game easy.
Posts: 14
Just a question: although I know we're far from an expansion and there are more urgent things to care about, do developers know what will happen with this buff if the level cap raises? Will the buff only stack in highest level characters or it will still functioning in level 60? Because I think this buff only works for the game if it's applied in max level; low level it's about learn how to play, know your skills and your own strategies. Say that level cap will raise 10 levels, players will be forced to play hell again without this buff until reach 70 or not?


well considering that the stated intent is to encourage experimenting but keep you from constant swapping when the experimentation phase is over the question should probably be: "will there be new skills for existing classes with an expansion?"
For the Nephalem buff to achieve its goal, as stated in Bashioks post, it should:

Take time to build up
Which means:
1) It must stack
2) It must stack to some reasonably high number.
Rumors are it migth stack to less than 5, which seems to be ineffective. If you can quickly reach the max stack, then it wont discourage people from farming a small area over and over (through quest reset) nor will it discourage people from resetting the buff to take advantage of skill respeccing whenever it offers a reasonable advantage. Two of the major goals with this system.
3) The best way to do this is probably a stacking buff with diminishing return. Such as having a max stack of 50 or 100 elite kills, with each kill offering fairly low MF/GF increase after a while. The first 5 elite kills could offer the full boss drop reward, with the rest of the stacks only offering MF/GF increase.

Offer a substantial reward
Follows from the above argument. If the MF/GF bonus is low, it wont discourage people from the behaviour Blizzard does not wish to support.


The issue which can arise is how to make a buff which takes time to build up, without hurting everyone who only play in short sessions (or who are unlucky enough to disconnect). Which is why I think Blizzard is looking at this in the wrong way.

The buff should not go away when you log out
Let it stay if you log out, don't punish people for taking a break.
As long as you continue the game where you left it, as in not resetting your current quest progress, people should keep the buff they had when they left!
By only resetting the buff if you reset your quest progress, you achieve the exact same goals as you have currently. You still encourage people to keep playing in their current quest progress, you encourage them to move forward in the game rather than farm one area over and over.
But at the same time you do not discourage people from playing short sessions or taking breaks.

And on top of these benefits, you can allow the buff to stack higher, to take longer time to build up (as argued in the first segment), to make the buff more meaningful.

Losing the buff
People has to lose the buff every so often - requiring them to start rebuilding the buff anew, repicking a quest to start from, and freely allowing them to respec without consequences every so often.
Allowing the buff to stay between sessions means it is even more important that it can and will be lost in other ways.
However this is already partially solved in the quest selection system. Even if you keep your current quest progress, at some point you will have got through the whole game, and be forced to reset your current quest progression no matter what. People will be rewarded for playing through large parts of the game however before doing so (even over multiple sessions).

Even so, the buff could have a duration which only gets refreshed by progressing through the game (quests or acts). The durations should be long enough to allow people to explore the game to its fullest, but keep them from trying to stay in one area farming elites without progressing (while not resetting their quest progress either - which on its own makes boss farming impossible in this concept).
A reasonable duration could be maybe 4-6 hours in-game time, and refreshed every time you completed a main quest. This way, when you run out of quests over your multiple-session play-through, the buff will go away.

TLDR:
The Nephalem buff should last through logout, and instead reset on quest progression resets!
This would both benefit casual gamers (+ unlucky disconnects), and allow Blizzard to make the buff stack higher (= require more elite kills), to the benefit of the whole Nephalem system and the goals Blizzard has with it (which is discouraging repeated farming of small areas and abusing respeccing too much).


It has to have a timer to make the buff go away, the reason being is people like me will just leave themselves in games and find ways to glitch themselves active. I used to do that all the time in Diablo 2 so I could get the World Event. I had 29 Annihilus from leaving my game active.

Did you ignore the part (the main part even) about the buff not going away on logout? :D
There would be no need to try to keep your current game open.

You are right there probably need to be a duration on the buff though. It should just be fairly long, so people don't feel like they have to rush when playing.
I'm not sure exactly what should refresh the buff timer. I proposed quest progress as it makes you keep moving forward over time, but it could be something else.
Posts: 35
One thing that is not a great idea: as we already saw in WoW you look up the highest DPS build and you play with it. They kept changing the system but it never works the way the keep saying they want "skill builds to be viable and interesting" which is bull unless you make them to have exactly the same DPS and utility or a combination of both there will always be a standard build for a class (or 2 or 3). It is dumb that you cant change skills based on the mob skills. Would be much more interesting if you could look at mob's skill set and decide which skills would be most effective. The way it is now with a moderate cool down is fin e don't screw with it. You are still committed to a build within a battle but not in general
Well played
03/23/2012 08:57 AMPosted by Borkenstein
One thing that is not a great idea: as we already saw in WoW you look up the highest DPS build and you play with it. They kept changing the system but it never works the way the keep saying they want "skill builds to be viable and interesting" which is bull unless you make them to have exactly the same DPS and utility or a combination of both there will always be a standard build for a class (or 2 or 3). It is dumb that you cant change skills based on the mob skills. Would be much more interesting if you could look at mob's skill set and decide which skills would be most effective. The way it is now with a moderate cool down is fin e don't screw with it. You are still committed to a build within a battle but not in general


1) It should be easier to balance D3 than WoW (still not easy though). The fact that you have a bazillion combinations of skills means that a good amount of them (hundreds, maybe thousands) are probably going to be reasonably close to eachother at the top.
In WoW you basically had 3 specs for each class, and at some point when Blizzard gave up balancing them against each other, they had a tendency toward making 1 spec the pvp spec and another spec the Raid spec, due to a goal of 'each class at least having 1 good spec for pvp and raiding - even if they couldn't make all 3 specs equally good".

Pretty much purely by mathematical distribution of skill combinations and their strength, it is harder to make 3 out of 3 specs somewhat equal, than it is to make 1000 specs out of 1000000000 specs somewhat equal - assuming in both cases that the skills are wildly different from each other, which is a goal Blizzard has in both WoW and D3.

2) WoW essentially has free-speccing (and will have real freespeccing in its next expansion), and people use that to spec for different bosses already, to take advantage of their mechanics.
For example a recent WoW boss gives one person a stacking haste and crit buff, which greatly favors mages specced as fire over mages specced as arcane - Arcane was undoubtedly the better average raiding spec at the time, but fire was better at that one boss. So of course people respecced for it.
It hardly makes the game more interesting to do this however. Instead of letting people pick a build they like, they instead have to respec for every occasion, if they want to be optimal (and high end wow raiders surely want to be that).
Edited by D3BETA on 3/23/2012 9:12 AM PDT
Posts: 284
03/22/2012 02:40 PMPosted by Puddingtime
Are we going to be able to test this in beta?


Not unless they decide to randomly include the full game in the Beta, which they have repeatedly stated they refuse to do. Bashiok clearly says this system kicks in when you reach level 60.
Posts: 143
I like 1 stack per elite killed, stacks up to 4 or 5 times, resets when you kill a boss. Lose 1 stack on death.

I want just 4 or 5 because it encourages you to stick with a build in the short term, and you quickly gain the fun benefit of increased MF/GF. Also, if you DO respec, it only takes another 4-5 kills to get it back up. Not terribly annoying, but enough to make you think before you click.
100 Tauren Paladin
11065
Posts: 21
This looks amazing. I don't remember who else proposed this, but another person kept suggesting a MF/GF buff for not switching skills. I think this is effectively that system, and it seems really like a great implementation.

One question: Why only at 60?


My guess would be that it starts at 60 because that is really where you start running for gear. You should still be concerned with leveling before that, therefore making it less of a necessity.


I think level 60 is a good choice. Before that I don't think they should discourage experimentation with skills. By level 60 you should be done experimenting and be settled in on a build, for the most part.
85 Human Warrior
0
Posts: 2,528
This sounds awesome!
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