Diablo® III

Soul Harvest - Uhhhh what.

85 Night Elf Hunter
9820
Posts: 67
I've been finding myself trying to justify why soul harvest gives me so much intellect, and I just can't get a reason. Originally I was completely okay with it because it forced you to go into melee range. The reward is way too great I feel though, and that makes the spell nearly mandatory - and really annoying to balance around.

I know we aren't supposed to be judging based on the little beta thing, and I accepted that until my level 11 witch doctor in relatively subpar gear 2-shotted jondar with a bat missile crit for 200 with another behind it for 120. I would kill my own character in 5 hits with my own ability by that logic. The ability doubles my damage.

Has blizz said anything about how they mistuned it for this patch, or is it literally going into the game like this? Honestly, looking at the runes for the ability, they don't add much 'fun' or functionality to the spell. Maybe if they changed the thing around using runes to I don't know, leech mana from a range, or throw people away, or collect some pool to eventually be unleashed, the runes will be fun. But the spell and runes as is are boring. Even if the ability was balanced, the spell would still be super boring. :(

kbye sorry rant.
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Posts: 7,266
The only thing I can think of is in later difficulties going into melee range will be anything but ideal and that it falls into the "big risk big reward" category.

Don't forget, at 60 it will provide 65% resist too lol.
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This spell is incredibly OP and therefore mandatory like you said. What an embarrassment this close to launch.

"Hey guys people are starting to dislike the WD again, better do something."
"Don't worry, we'll make a spell that gives 650% more damage for up to a minute."
"Ah, nice, now they'll like the class again!"

And ya, ya, I know the math doesn't make it correspond to +650% more damage, but still... Even if a player has 2000 Int at level 60 the spell would correspond to a 32.5% increase in damage which still makes it mandatory. So what, we're going to have 4000+ Int at level 60 at which point the spell becomes reasonable? I doubt it.

Gotta wonder how these things get proposed, much less into beta.
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Do we know how it will scale with level? Obviously it's very OP when you first get it, it more than doubled my WD's DPS the first time i used it .. from about 20 to about 45 !!... Definitely seemed a bit ridiculous.

Also, if it's runed to last a minute and you pop fetish army and have pets out too, it wouldnt be all that difficult to keep it up at relatively low risk, no?
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Posts: 7,266
For more info:
http://armadagaming.com/showthread.php?459-Armor-Resistances-and-Effective-Health

Thanks for posting that link.

Yeah when I made that post 3 days ago I hadn't read how they had changed it from a resist % to a flat rating. I think they shared that with us fairly recently too didn't they?

I wish they would update the skills in the calculator (that provide resist) so everybody would be aware of the change.
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I would keep in mind that they have to balance (or have chosen the paradigm of balancing) a skill uniformly across all four difficulties, for all gear levels (casuals and hardcore).

This will lead them to make an ability seem overpowered in normal (as almost all abilities in d2 were in 1-player normal games)...but i doubt it will be that great in higher difficulties in later acts due to proximity to enemies. Besides, 30% isn't that big of a damage boost, and it uses one of your slots (which i believe is shared by the pets?) Gear will make a bigger difference than this skill will.

I mean, they essentially gave the monk and barbarian a damage resist bonus because they were dying in inferno difficulty too much, right? This isn't any different.
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Posts: 556
"Hey guys people are starting to dislike the WD again, better do something."
"Don't worry, we'll make a spell that gives 650% more damage for up to a minute."
"Ah, nice, now they'll like the class again!"


This isn't what happened. Soul Harvest has always been this powerful since the skill calculators came out in September, and many of us correctly speculated Soul Harvest's massive power long before it was in the beta: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3657282011
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Posts: 7,266
would keep in mind that they have to balance (or have chosen the paradigm of balancing) a skill uniformly across all four difficulties, for all gear levels (casuals and hardcore).

This will lead them to make an ability seem overpowered in normal (as almost all abilities in d2 were in 1-player normal games)...but i doubt it will be that great in higher difficulties in later acts due to proximity to enemies. Besides, 30% isn't that big of a damage boost, and it uses one of your slots (which i believe is shared by the pets?) Gear will make a bigger difference than this skill will.

I mean, they essentially gave the monk and barbarian a damage resist bonus because they were dying in inferno difficulty too much, right? This isn't any different.

Best post so far. Thanks for explaining it simply and logically, for people that are just looking at it early game (normal, or even beta content).
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Posts: 1,048
Does anyone remember the gear before they took it down, that had +100% Wizard Damage, +75% Witch doctor Damage.

Intel is not the only place where we will get damage increase. Stop making such a huge deal about Soul Harvest being strong in starter gear.
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I would keep in mind that they have to balance (or have chosen the paradigm of balancing) a skill uniformly across all four difficulties, for all gear levels (casuals and hardcore).

This will lead them to make an ability seem overpowered in normal (as almost all abilities in d2 were in 1-player normal games)...but i doubt it will be that great in higher difficulties in later acts due to proximity to enemies. Besides, 30% isn't that big of a damage boost, and it uses one of your slots (which i believe is shared by the pets?) Gear will make a bigger difference than this skill will.


We can assume that Blizzard is trying to make skills (and classes) balanced, but we shouldn't assume that they've necessarily got it right (yet.)

Soul Harvest does seem fairly ridiculous in normal, and there's a real question as to how much its power level will drop off through the other difficulties. Having to move in close enough to get the buff will be a pretty big balancing factor for the skill in Inferno, but we won't know how risky this really is until we get there. It might be that you can only feasibly use SH regularly if you take defensive passives and use defensive gear. In that case, SH probably won’t be too popular – unless those defensive passives are needed to survive in Inferno anyway.

Having to use up an active skill slot is definitely another balancing factor. At the same time, you can only be casting one spell at a time, which means that active skills that have an ongoing effect beyond the initial cast are valuable.

A 30% damage boost is a big deal. Increased damage means you kill stuff faster, which means you move through levels faster, get loot faster etc. Imagine the reaction of the player base if it was clear that one class regularly did around 30% damage more than the others. Similarly, if Soul Harvest Witch Doctors regularly do around 30% damage more than the others, then there's a problem. There's always going to be some variance between classes and builds, it's not possible to perfectly balance every class and skill. But 30% is absolutely a big deal.

The damage boost you get from gear might dwarf whatever you get from SH, but this doesn't mean SH's damage boost is trivial. We don't have to choose between gear or SH. We do have to choose between SH and other active skills, which is where the damage comparison becomes more important. If SH ends up consistently providing a 30%+ damage boost (and isn’t too dangerous) then it’s difficult to justify not starting every WD build with SH.

Suppose SH is balanced in Inferno but a bit overpowered in Hell. Depending on how overpowered, this is still potentially a real balance issue. Farming Hell for gold/gear is going to be important, and if WD+SH ends up too far ahead then there’s a problem.

I mean, they essentially gave the monk and barbarian a damage resist bonus because they were dying in inferno difficulty too much, right? This isn't any different.


I'm not sure exactly what point you've trying to make here. Balance only really becomes important in Hell/Inferno and at various points in the leveling game, some classes and skills might seem OP relative to each other, sure. Blizzard makes balance changes that might not seem necessary in the content available on the beta (or even possibly all of normal mode) because they matter in Inferno, sure. But, Soul Harvest hasn't been massively changed, it's just become available earlier. As Uberstein has pointed out, there's been concern for some time about SH's power level, which was never restricted to normal mode/beta levels. The latest discussion has started from people trying SH in beta and going "Gee, this seems pretty powerful right now" but that doesn't mean we don't have to worry about its power later on.

If you're trying to compare to the monk/barb change, then the question is: is SH more like monk/barb now (balanced for Inferno) or monk/barb before their extra damage resist (problematic and in need of change in Inferno)?
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Posts: 1,048
This will lead them to make an ability seem overpowered in normal (as almost all abilities in d2 were in 1-player normal games)...but i doubt it will be that great in higher difficulties in later acts due to proximity to enemies. Besides, 30% isn't that big of a damage boost, and it uses one of your slots (which i believe is shared by the pets?) Gear will make a bigger difference than this skill will.


The actual damage boost percentage is
100*[(INT+100+650)/(INT+100) - 1]%.

For Toz's example of 2000 intelligence, that turned out to be about 31%. However, 2000 Intelligence is way too high, it turns out. You start off with 10, and gain 3 per level, so your natural level 60 INT will only be 187.

I'm guessing that we will have a very hard time being able to push our intelligence above something like 400, so let's say 400 is a reasonable Inferno INT.

With 400 Intelligence, 5 enemy Soul Harvest will give us a 130% damage bonus! That's right, 130%. Our damage will be multiplied by a factor of 2.3 after using Soul Harvest, and that's for a pretty high estimation of Intelligence. If it's as low as 200 INT (our natural intelligence plus 13), that becomes a 217% bonus.

So yeah, the damage bonus won't be 30%, it will be waaaaaaaay higher.

Compare these numbers (130% from 400 intelligence, and 217% from 200 intelligence) to other damage bonus modifiers that take up a slot, like the Wizard's 10% from Magic Weapon, or the Monk's 12% from Mantra of Conviction. I do agree that it will be hard to get close to monsters in higher difficulties, but I still think Soul Harvest needs a massive nerf.


Heres a quick look. The best potion heals for 12500 to get that much life requires 1250 Vitality(basically, not including the Gem in the helm, and other things)

So obviously the best potion wont heal us to full lets say..half to make it easy 12500 +12500

25000 Life/10 = 2500 Vitality, rough number. Again where all theory crafting but just to put things in a different perspective about how we don't full understand itemization. I think we Could EASILY see above 3000
Edited by Vaaz on 3/27/2012 5:32 PM PDT
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Compare these numbers (130% from 400 intelligence, and 217% from 200 intelligence) to other damage bonus modifiers that take up a slot, like the Wizard's 10% from Magic Weapon, or the Monk's 12% from Mantra of Conviction. I do agree that it will be hard to get close to monsters in higher difficulties, but I still think Soul Harvest needs a massive nerf.


Heres a quick look. The best potion heals for 12500 to get that much life requires 1250 Vitality(basically, not including the Gem in the helm, and other things)

So obviously the best potion wont heal us to full lets say..half to make it easy 12500 +12500

25000 Life/10 = 2500 Vitality, rough number. Again where all theory crafting but just to put things in a different perspective about how we don't full understand itemization. I think we Could EASILY see above 3000


Magic Weapon (max 15%) and Mantra of Conviction (max 24%, party wide) make for a good point of comparison. At 3000 Int, SH is ~20% damage increase, which still seems pretty high.
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Posts: 1,048
Heres a quick look. The best potion heals for 12500 to get that much life requires 1250 Vitality(basically, not including the Gem in the helm, and other things)

So obviously the best potion wont heal us to full lets say..half to make it easy 12500 +12500

25000 Life/10 = 2500 Vitality, rough number. Again where all theory crafting but just to put things in a different perspective about how we don't full understand itemization. I think we Could EASILY see above 3000


Magic Weapon (max 15%) and Mantra of Conviction (max 24%, party wide) make for a good point of comparison. At 3000 Int, SH is ~20% damage increase, which still seems pretty high.


Apples to oranges, the main argument is to debunk the fact that Soul Harvest will increase DPS in the 200% or 100% range.

And looking at the potion scaling, you can easily see an exponential increase in healing they do. So until we find out how much intellect we will truly have, people can stop complaining about Soul Harvest.
Edited by Vaaz on 3/27/2012 5:51 PM PDT
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...and runs out quickly.


1 minute (runed) aint quick in this game. Quick would be something like 5 - 10 sec in which case we wouldn't have this thread.
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I smell nerf stick. My guess 2-4 weeks after D3 comes out most classes will have a huge list of changes. I doubt bizz has a very large group of in house tests that get to see the whole game, once a few million start playing the bugs and balancing problems fly out of the water works.
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