Diablo® III

Conviction boring? Monk too specialized?

Posts: 461
Mantra of Conviction and Overawe are so ridiculously powerful that they SERIOUSLY limit your character choices.

The numbers are TOO BIG. There is no way to ever justify NOT taking them. Personally, I like having choices on my characters. I feel like I'm playing with 5 skills, a lot of which are weird and not particularly good - too much that is completely situational and not good outside of its niche.

I'm starting to feel like this isn't the right choice for me. It doesn't seem like Monk powers DO enough. Any build that I can put together just seems less COOL than any other class, as well as doing less damage.

Except the support build, which is nice to have in the game - but shouldn't be the only reason for a class.
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Going for mantra of healing with Time of Need as a HC player. 20% damage reduction from all sources... pretty justifiable.
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Posts: 461
Versus 24%-48% more damage done to enemies? Killing things is important.

Also I assumed that that didn't include physical.

Are you playing alone or with friends?
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Unless its been changed the gameguide doesn't say time of need is 20% damage reduction. It says resistance to all forms of damage increased by 20%. Exactly how that works I'm not sure. I highly doubt they will add 20% damage reduction from all forms. Just seems a bit excessive for one rune.

However your interpretation may be correct. I am just questioning what resistance to all forms of damage actually means. vs. damage reduction.
Edited by D3BETA on 3/29/2012 11:37 AM PDT
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I myself will play alone HC, with friends it's gonna be SC and yes then I will use the damage mantra. and resistance to all damage types is physical as well I believe. Yes killing things is important but not dying is more important than the damage I believe. although it is a lot. Just my preference.
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It's all just speculation at this point in time. The mantra is strong of course but I strongly believe that there are so many more options to get the same damage increase.

Also, we don't know yet how valuable the monk's kit will be in the highest difficulities, perhaps you'll find that using the mantra for damage simply wont work if you die all the time.

I do however hope just like you that the monk hasn't gotten the short end of the stick of all the classes, that would be said. (when thinking about least abilities/passives/animations/etc.)
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Posts: 461
Damage taken is almost always multiplied last - making it a flat 24% damage increase.

That is HUGE. Insanely huge. There is no way any of the other mantras can compare, in a group setting, and if

So now we're playing with 5 moves - and... it's not enough room to make fun things happen, really.

I'm not sure what Monks are meant to do.
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I do however hope just like you that the monk hasn't gotten the short end of the stick of all the classes, that would be said. (when thinking about least abilities/passives/animations/etc.)


Completely with you on that one. As beta has gone on I have begun to dislike the monk vs a couple other classes. May be an entirely different story in higher game difficulties.
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Conviction runed with Submission is better.
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Posts: 2,005
MoH with Time of Need adds 20% resistance to ALL forms of damage including physical.

As for the Monk and skills. Not all monks are going to want 24% damage to targets.

Having the AOE 12% tick per second, reduce enemies attack by 10%, slow all enemies by 30% within 20yrds, and a 30% chance to LL

MoC has so many positive choices you wont be held to just one. And your wrong. Its not always about damage. Inferno is about survival. If you plan to run in and drop big damage then run out vs's staying in the fight. Then go for those Nuke, 0 defense, 0 crowd control, all about damage builds. They wont get you very far very fast due to the increase difficulty that blizzard has planned for all of us.

I would agree as for the Monk. They do feel like they got the short end of the daibo.

  • least amount of skills/passives.
  • least amount of weapons to choose from.
  • hardest resource to manage.

  • Until we know how they will shape up come end game, im going to hold off on my anger/judgment. For as far as BETA goes, Monks are alright. But the numbers dont lie and my hopes are the Monk really starts to shine when the going gets tough.

    I think the Monk has the best survival over any other class including the Barb. With dodge, armor, and plenty of CC. The Monk has great potential to bring entire armies to a halt to allow their allies to drop the bombs on them.
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    Posts: 461
    Submission better than 12% more damage? Assuming you're not doing 100% damage every second, then yes - but also, you're underrating the Overawe. Crazy burst damage for AoE situations, and amazing single target for bosses.

    8% AS is way less than 24% damage. So is 40% thorns. It's simple math.

    All monks are going to want 24% damage. That is an insanely huge amount. We don't get really any +%damage, so that's a really huge difference. Killing enemies is what things is about, before they kill you - and 24%-48% is *huge* if you can find a way to hurt people.

    Either way, Conviction is our only real option for Mantras. It may have some cool options within it, but optimizing for damage with it, and utility elsewhere (as monks have no other great damage sources) is probably going to be the right choice, with what we know.
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    Posts: 2,005
    I guess if your going for optimize damage build then i see why your stuck on MoC for the 24% bonus.

    Not all players who play the monk are going for optimize damage. I myself will go with optimize support so that myself and any of my allies who are with me will take little to 0 damage come inferno.

    Inferno is a war of attrition. With no berserk timers in Diablo 3, there is no rush to try to burn down the packs of mobs as fast as you can while sacrificing support or defense. So an all out party of all out offense is going to struggle when they bite off a little more than they can chew.

    I agree with you the Monk should not be only a support class. But we can't expect to deal damage like the Barb, DH, or Wizard who's focus are skills are all about damage. MoC with 24% for allies is nice, and I hope Monks team up to stack their mantras and skills to enhance their parties skills even greater.
    Edited by Archangel on 3/29/2012 12:26 PM PDT
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    Posts: 1,511
    • Mantra of Healing with Circular Breathing - 3 Spirit a second as well as healage.
    • Mantra of Retribution with Transgression - 8% attack speed on top of Retribution's effect.
    • Mantra of Conviction with Submission combined with the Resolve passive - 12% weapon damage per second to enemies, reducing their damage by 25%.
    Edited by Steve on 3/29/2012 12:31 PM PDT
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    100 Blood Elf Paladin
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    Posts: 2,824
    Its really hard to tell how needed the Mantras will be or how much they make up for lack of other abilities the other classes have.

    I've been spending most of my time in Beta in HC because people tend to stick together more in HC public games.

    I don't think the Monk is gimped in anyway as I play it on Beta.

    But when I play my DH and if any other DH's are in the group for SK runs, the place gets mowed down so fast. Same with multiple WD's. Interestingly I don't see as many Wiz's.

    So I struggle with the notion that the best groups for inferno will be Barb+the 3 ranged classes. That's assuming a well coordinated group on vent and the ranged are excellent at avoiding taking unneeded dmg.

    So that's where the Mantras come in. Are Monk's healing/Mantras needed or will they just cover up mistakes for less skilled/experienced groups? I can't help but think of how much maintaining uptime on Mantras reminds me of paladins being buff bots long ago.

    Makes me think to just use a Monk for solo'ing HC which I think they'll be excellent solo'rs.
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    Posts: 461
    8% attack speed is FAR FAR FAR less than 24% more damage. Your math is being poor.

    Same with 3 spirit a second. That's an extra finisher every 10 seconds or so - so 110% weapon damage after 10 seconds (because normally you'd be using a combo move instead). That's 11% a second, which is by no means bad - but 24% per second is WAY more. Especially considering that activating it bumps it to a ridiculous FORTY TWO percent.

    I don't think the monk is gimped at all. It looks very strong. It just suffers from a lack of interesting options.

    Killing monsters 24% faster is worth a lot of time to live - and having a 48% coordinated burst moment is incredible.

    The reason overawe is the best rune isn't just the 12%, it's the 24%.

    Btw, buffing your team's damage *is support*. It's just the best possible support.
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    Looks like you have it all figured out.
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    Posts: 461
    Not it all, just simple math.

    I've been gaming forever, and multiplicative increases are troublesome. Something this huge is virtually unbeatable, as far as "goodness" goes.
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    Posts: 2,005
    So Lisk i have a question for you.

    Why choose MoC w/ Overawe vs's Submission?

    One adds 12% more damage to targets you or your allies are attacking.

    One does 12% weapon damage per second to all mobs within 20 yards.

    Overawe sounds great when your attacking a target but what about all the mobs your not attacking?

    Submission gives you essentially the same offense, its bonus effects EVERYTHING where as overawe only effects the targets you or your allies are fighting.

    I am curious why you feel that a skill that only benefits your party against the target/targets is greater than a skill that benefits your party against ALL targets reguardless of attacking them or not.

    I feel that submission will be pumping out WAY more damage than Overawe because you are gaining DPS against targets you are not attacking as well as 12% damage against targets you ARE attacking.

    IMO, submission > overawe
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    Posts: 2,005
    Also with submission

    If you have the passive rune Resolve. All targets effected by MoC are now doing 25% less damage.

    You wont get that feature with Overawe.
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