Diablo® III

What abolishing/limiting Gold does to rares:

Uh, how would I farm gold to sell, if there is no gold?? /fail

And who the F is ron paul? is that that gay black guy that had the TV talk show?
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If I'm reading correctly, your assertion is covered under "Simplification" in that thread.

Then I'll extrapolate that what we have is a difference in thought between two groups: people who like to think, and people who don't? I'm not trying to sound disparaging but that's how I view it. Apparently the unidentified items system gets thrown right out the window for that? Too much thought and effort required?

Based on that article it seems that most people don't want to think, they don't want options, and they just want the 'A' in the A-RPG?

"I'm disappoint" :(

The TLDnR was just a way for me to try and simplify what I was getting at so that people would understand. It appears it didn't work; people that haven't played the other game don't know what I'm talking about.


well, the link i posted was actually not directed at you at all... nor was my TLDR statement. (the tldr was directed at anyone who doesnt like reading long posts, and the link was for clarynaa, who didnt seem to understand the stat point / skill point allocation)D=
Gotcha. Thank you for the link because that was a good read for me.

If you read my original questions (which weren't rhetorical), I was essentially asking how did we end up with what we've got and whats wrong with something different.

Like Static just showed, people don't even care about unidentified items. I never would have expected that, but that sums up part of the article.

I'll just shake my head at Diablo 3's art direction, forgettable and sometimes awkward music and now legit ideas of the past systems thrown out the window for simplicity.
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Uh, how would I farm gold to sell, if there is no gold?? /fail

And who the F is ron paul? is that that gay black guy that had the TV talk show?


/Fail
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I make some assumptions that people understand some basics: D1 and D2 gold was broke. Identification and Town Portals systems were broke. But they all could be improved by Blizzard.

RE: "As to the OP" Just because the other game's system is currently awkward in beta doesn't mean the entire system is permanently broke or could never be improved. Shards in bags. Orbs accessible from shared storage. Already covered (fixed") in Diablo 3.

You assumed that I think the D1 and D2 systems including Cain were great. "Fearing change"? As my other post reflects, I said that I expected Blizzard to improve on the systems. D1 and then D2 gold, portals, and identification was just broke. I kind of expected that everybody knew that by now.


Yet you insult the D3 system without really much reason behind insulting it. The comment that the current system is a meaningless gesture made absolutely no sense. They've explained why they want people to identify things -- because of that Christmas present feeling -- but they also have made it pretty obvious they don't want inventory space cluttered with non-essential (that is non-gear) items. Even crafting mats have been reduced fairly significantly by removing the white components. This isn't a game in which bag packing is the main concern (as can be seen by the developers' decisions).

I fail to see how your proposed system will fix the gold and scroll systems from D2 any better than D3. I think, honestly, they'll break the system even more than D2's.

As to the issues with PoE's systems - it really isn't the inventory issues that make the system feel awkward. It is a cool concept on paper to simulate bartering, but bartering with NPC's just becomes awkward. The key for bartering is the back and forth as each party determines the value of what they want and are willing to give in non-currency terms. PoE's system was just clunky when I played with it (I played before they implemented selling gear and tried that system once for a while it was implemented, as well). It felt like it was the developers forcing a system onto the community when a non-gold currency is almost always something the community itself determines. It's like if Diablo 2 had Stones of Jordan forced as the currency of the game instead of it happening because the community's trends. PoE's NPCs working with the orbs and currency items felt like they were trying to hard to get the idea to work, as if they decided early in the development process that they didn't want gold and had a very hard time getting a system in which it worked. To me, it helps highlight why it's such a good thing that the D3 development team is so willing to sacrifice the golden calf, as it were, for their game -- from runes as items to a flat Inferno -- for the sake of the quality of the game and how it plays. An idea can be a great idea but if it doesn't play well, it probably shouldn't be in the game.

True, the PoE system theoretically can encourage people valuating different currency items for different amounts, which can theoretically be compelling and make for intriguing trade scenarios, but it most likely will come down to a forum-based evaluation. A specific unique item, or good rare, will be worth so many of a certain orb, and each orb will have a community-established value compared to each other orb. It really will just get awkward to have to go through the markets and forums to find the values of things (which will almost certainly be established even if the intended goal is to let them be on a person-by-person basis).

Don't get me wrong, I understand how broken gold was in D2, but I don't see why simply making gold worth something in D3 isn't a good fix. Civilizations develop currency for a reason -- it makes commerce function much more easily. It's the one time having that middle man of money is actually more useful. A money-based currency is easier to deal with because it is consistent and easy to communicate a value among many different parties. A non-gold based system would probably work fine if the currency that replaced it was one or two items at most that had a clear and distinct conversation rate. I would say that if PoE wanted to keep their system, they should stick to only one or two orbs (or just their scrolls) being currency rather than the whole slew of them.

In response to the OP's tl;dr -- the "value" of identifying things doesn't necessarily affect the value of unidentified things, which get their value not from the cost of identifying it but from their potential. The reason an unidentified rare may have more demand than a specific identified one is because it has the chance to be a perfect rare, and the cost of identifying an item is only a very marginal effect on item values. Interestingly, there seems to be demand both for random/uncertain results and for specific/certain results in other games. For example, in Magic the Gathering, there is demand for boosters (which provide totally uncertain and unlikely prospects for a specific rare card) and for those specific cards people are seeking.
I'll just say that I believe you feel the system is awkward only because it's different to you, not because it is wrong. Heaven forbid a game that takes getting used to!

Before paper currency, there was metal currencies that had to be imprinted by their domain. Before that people traded items of changing values for liquidity. Governments haven't always controlled currencies and propped up the value of gold.

Gems, gold, diamonds, art, finely crafted items. It's not really very far to travel in the realm of Role Playing Game (as I always saw them) to imagine that specifically useful magical items create the basis for a market like the orbs and shards have done.

Gold used to be a status symbol in real life. In the Diablo series, zombies explode and throw down 23 pieces of gold at the start of the game? You're so used to it now that anything else seems "awkward" and "forced". Difference of opinion for people familiar with history that can put it to a magical context I guess.

As far as unidentified items is concerned, the "Magic of Christmas" feeling works perfectly for you. Note that to me it comes across as puerile. Difference of opinion. There was another game that actually had the villains using the weapons and items that they dropped. I guess that was too thoughtful for the Diablo series.

I understand what you are telling me. That you are in the camp of people that don't want to have to think outside of the box for a game. Unidentified items are too much of a distraction for you.

O.K.
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Shinobi you are very quickly going to be known as the PoE fanboy.

If you love PoE so much then why arnt you playing it RIGHT NOW?

Why are you on the Diablo 3 forums talking about PoE all day?
Edited by Trustnone on 3/31/2012 6:21 PM PDT
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Shinobi you are very quickly going to be known as the PoE fanboy.

If you love PoE so much then why arnt you playing it RIGHT NOW?

Why are you on the Diablo 3 forums talking about PoE all day?


People spend the time to read my posts and respond so I thought it respectful to respond in turn. It's called conversing. Sometimes I do it in between other things, like gaming.

PoE gets boring. It's a F2P game not a supposed blockbuster. Everything else I have posted has been to draw attention to its ideas. Nothing more.

Last fall I was ranting about Dark Souls and Diablo's easy difficulty. Guess what? Now Diablo 3 is going to be known as "Hard". Correlation? Maybe. Maybe not.

The only reason I was playing PoE until level 20 or so, is because I'm, trying to make a Kings Sword of Haste build with life leach that I made in Diablo 1. Also there's an interesting skill in PoE that turns off mana and makes all casts draw from your health pool.

I'm checking that out while, OMG HERE IT COMES, being bored of the poor attack execution system.

Long story short, I'm just lobbying for changes that I would like to see in Diablo 3.

I'm actually a Diablo fanboy in case you didn't get it. ;)
Edited by D3BETA on 3/31/2012 6:36 PM PDT
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well, the link i posted was actually not directed at you at all... nor was my TLDR statement. (the tldr was directed at anyone who doesnt like reading long posts, and the link was for clarynaa, who didnt seem to understand the stat point / skill point allocation)D=
Gotcha. Thank you for the link because that was a good read for me.

If you read my original questions (which weren't rhetorical), I was essentially asking how did we end up with what we've got and whats wrong with something different.

Like Static just showed, people don't even care about unidentified items. I never would have expected that, but that sums up part of the article.

I'll just shake my head at Diablo 3's art direction, forgettable and sometimes awkward music and now legit ideas of the past systems thrown out the window for simplicity.


yea regardless, that link is amazing and anyone should read it =]
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You're coming off as a fanboy who bashes anyone that dosent like PoE or your idea.

Just sayin.....
Edited by Trustnone on 3/31/2012 6:35 PM PDT
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03/31/2012 05:14 PMPosted by D3BETA
@ Shinobi, you are aware that crafting mats need to be in your inventory to be used in D3 right?


I just popped it in and bought mats with Beta bucks. You could have bet me fifty dollars and I would've lost it. I don't know where I got the idea that you can craft items from your stash.

I guess I just thought it was there the whole time.

So yes I was wrong about Diablo 3 supposedly fixing that. Thank you for pointing it out!
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Yet you insult the D3 system without really much reason behind insulting it. The comment that the current system is a meaningless gesture made absolutely no sense. They've explained why they want people to identify things -- because of that Christmas present feeling -- but they also have made it pretty obvious they don't want inventory space cluttered with non-essential (that is non-gear) items. Even crafting mats have been reduced fairly significantly by removing the white components. This isn't a game in which bag packing is the main concern (as can be seen by the developers' decisions).

I fail to see how your proposed system will fix the gold and scroll systems from D2 any better than D3. I think, honestly, they'll break the system even more than D2's.

As to the issues with PoE's systems - it really isn't the inventory issues that make the system feel awkward. It is a cool concept on paper to simulate bartering, but bartering with NPC's just becomes awkward. The key for bartering is the back and forth as each party determines the value of what they want and are willing to give in non-currency terms. PoE's system was just clunky when I played with it (I played before they implemented selling gear and tried that system once for a while it was implemented, as well). It felt like it was the developers forcing a system onto the community when a non-gold currency is almost always something the community itself determines. It's like if Diablo 2 had Stones of Jordan forced as the currency of the game instead of it happening because the community's trends. PoE's NPCs working with the orbs and currency items felt like they were trying to hard to get the idea to work, as if they decided early in the development process that they didn't want gold and had a very hard time getting a system in which it worked. To me, it helps highlight why it's such a good thing that the D3 development team is so willing to sacrifice the golden calf, as it were, for their game -- from runes as items to a flat Inferno -- for the sake of the quality of the game and how it plays. An idea can be a great idea but if it doesn't play well, it probably shouldn't be in the game.

True, the PoE system theoretically can encourage people valuating different currency items for different amounts, which can theoretically be compelling and make for intriguing trade scenarios, but it most likely will come down to a forum-based evaluation. A specific unique item, or good rare, will be worth so many of a certain orb, and each orb will have a community-established value compared to each other orb. It really will just get awkward to have to go through the markets and forums to find the values of things (which will almost certainly be established even if the intended goal is to let them be on a person-by-person basis).

Don't get me wrong, I understand how broken gold was in D2, but I don't see why simply making gold worth something in D3 isn't a good fix. Civilizations develop currency for a reason -- it makes commerce function much more easily. It's the one time having that middle man of money is actually more useful. A money-based currency is easier to deal with because it is consistent and easy to communicate a value among many different parties. A non-gold based system would probably work fine if the currency that replaced it was one or two items at most that had a clear and distinct conversation rate. I would say that if PoE wanted to keep their system, they should stick to only one or two orbs (or just their scrolls) being currency rather than the whole slew of them.

In response to the OP's tl;dr -- the "value" of identifying things doesn't necessarily affect the value of unidentified things, which get their value not from the cost of identifying it but from their potential. The reason an unidentified rare may have more demand than a specific identified one is because it has the chance to be a perfect rare, and the cost of identifying an item is only a very marginal effect on item values. Interestingly, there seems to be demand both for random/uncertain results and for specific/certain results in other games. For example, in Magic the Gathering, there is demand for boosters (which provide totally uncertain and unlikely prospects for a specific rare card) and for those specific cards people are seeking.
I'll just say that I believe you feel the system is awkward only because it's different to you, not because it is wrong. Heaven forbid a game that takes getting used to!

Before paper currency, there was metal currencies that had to be imprinted by their domain. Before that people traded items of changing values for liquidity. Governments haven't always controlled currencies and propped up the value of gold.

Gems, gold, diamonds, art, finely crafted items. It's not really very far to travel in the realm of Role Playing Game (as I always saw them) to imagine that specifically useful magical items create the basis for a market like the orbs and shards have done.

Gold used to be a status symbol in real life. In the Diablo series, zombies explode and throw down 23 pieces of gold at the start of the game? You're so used to it now that anything else seems "awkward" and "forced". Difference of opinion for people familiar with history that can put it to a magical context I guess.

As far as unidentified items is concerned, the "Magic of Christmas" feeling works perfectly for you. Note that to me it comes across as puerile. Difference of opinion. There was another game that actually had the villains using the weapons and items that they dropped. I guess that was too thoughtful for the Diablo series.

I understand what you are telling me. That you are in the camp of people that don't want to have to think outside of the box for a game. Unidentified items are too much of a distraction for you.

O.K.


Way to miss every time I praised the game's ambitions. Back in the summer, I lurked in the PoE forums a lot and was quite in love with the idea of their currency system, since it meant that the necessity of gold sinks wasn't there at all.

Every item you've described is indeed a currency. What does the nature of it matter? You'll notice, though, that each time a currency was developed in history, it was consistent among the people that used it. The very point of a currency is to be utilitarian and functional. Part of the functionality of a currency in ANY form is consistency and a certain ease of conversion (that is, you can easily tell me how many quarters go into a dollar and how many nickels go into a quarter).

You cite the fact that cultures bartered items. That's obviously true. And D3 will still have a bartering system for those that want it. I'll trade you my unique hat for your unique sword -- it's no different than ancient cultures trading a camel for three goats, or what have you. And people can still barter as if it were a marketplace by trying to sell their item and have people haggle over the price. Those are still options in D3. The problem comes in that PoE is trying to mix a bartering system and a currency system into one, trying to force consistent currency items and keep their values liquid enough to allow people to barter them at personally determined values at the same time. It created an awkward sensation that an Orb of Transmutation seemed like it should be worth a set number of TPs, but at the same time it felt like that Orb should be worth whatever it was worth to an individual. It was cognitive dissonance. Part of the issue was that while the system seemed like it should fluctuate a great deal, incorporating the NPC vendors into the system meant that the currency had to necessarily be static in value. This didn't allow for a community-based value of each currency item which the system was intended to encourage. In a real world situation, it'd be like trying to establish a bartering system with an online vendor such as Amazon.com (not the other vendors who sell on Amazon, but the main site itself) -- they only work through consistency and no need for haggling, while bartering systems require haggling to maintain the liquid nature of a pre-currency system.

You'll note, too, that I suggest that a non-gold-based currency would work in PoE if they reduced the number of currency items to allow for consistency of value and making conversion rates between the forms of currency easily accessible. It's pretty obvious that I'm not just arguing for gold because gold is all I know. That's a fairly insulting interpretation of my arguments and implies you didn't really read my posts before responding to them. Not once have I tried to say that D3 should use gold just because gold is the thing used in the past. Please pay me the respect of not insinuating that I'm a reactionary afraid of change.

I've explained my reasons for feeling the PoE system is fundamentally broken (or at least not as functional as it seems on paper), and there are several reasons for that feeling. The reason PoE felt clunky and forced was not because I'm used to seeing gold dropping from monsters but because the interaction with currency was awkward -- have you seriously tried to sell items in the game? Aside from the obvious deficiencies in not having a hotkey to place items in the sell-grid pane, the whole system is awkward -- they even had to break up orbs and scrolls into scraps to enable smaller currency values. The very fact that selling items was implemented long after the majority of game was released to its beta shows how awkward the system was -- that it took even longer to develop what they did end up developing than it took to entirely revamp their passive skill/attribute system. Aside from the awkward UI issues, which are simpler to fix than systemic issues, there are a lot of awkward aspects for having so many different currency items.

The interaction between NPCs and the multiple currency-item system added a needless complexity that felt rigid where it should have been fluid and too wide-spread to be consistent enough to be a really functional currency. Eventually people will settle on one, maybe two, orb to be the de facto currency of player-to-player trade, and that's great. It's not any different than using Stones of Jordan as currency. But it makes it especially awkward to deal with the NPC vendors in the game, since they will still be using the multiple-item currency system. As such, there'll be a disconnection between the two. Yes, that disconnection was present in D2, but aren't we supposed to learn from the issues of the past? We both agree that the gold-based economy of D2 was entirely broken, but that is not because all gold-based systems are broken (WoW, as just one example among A HUGE number, is perfectly functional). Simply, D2's system was broken. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater isn't the solution.

That being said, if D3 wanted to have a currency based on a consumable item, it has some very interesting possibilities, and some hurtles to overcome. Simply trying to reduce my argument to "oh it's not gold so it must be bad" is indicative that you're really not trying to have a conversation about it.
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[quote]

Way to miss every time I praised the game's ambitions. Back in the summer, I lurked in the PoE forums a lot and was quite in love with the idea of their currency system, since it meant that the necessity of gold sinks wasn't there at all.

Every item you've described is indeed a currency. What does the nature of it matter? You'll notice, though, that each time a currency was developed in history, it was consistent among the people that used it. The very point of a currency is to be utilitarian and functional. Part of the functionality of a currency in ANY form is consistency and a certain ease of conversion (that is, you can easily tell me how many quarters go into a dollar and how many nickels go into a quarter).

You cite the fact that cultures bartered items. That's obviously true. And D3 will still have a bartering system for those that want it. I'll trade you my unique hat for your unique sword -- it's no different than ancient cultures trading a camel for three goats, or what have you. And people can still barter as if it were a marketplace by trying to sell their item and have people haggle over the price. Those are still options in D3. The problem comes in that PoE is trying to mix a bartering system and a currency system into one, trying to force consistent currency items and keep their values liquid enough to allow people to barter them at personally determined values at the same time. It created an awkward sensation that an Orb of Transmutation seemed like it should be worth a set number of TPs, but at the same time it felt like that Orb should be worth whatever it was worth to an individual. It was cognitive dissonance. Part of the issue was that while the system seemed like it should fluctuate a great deal, incorporating the NPC vendors into the system meant that the currency had to necessarily be static in value. This didn't allow for a community-based value of each currency item which the system was intended to encourage. In a real world situation, it'd be like trying to establish a bartering system with an online vendor such as Amazon.com (not the other vendors who sell on Amazon, but the main site itself) -- they only work through consistency and no need for haggling, while bartering systems require haggling to maintain the liquid nature of a pre-currency system.

You'll note, too, that I suggest that a non-gold-based currency would work in PoE if they reduced the number of currency items to allow for consistency of value and making conversion rates between the forms of currency easily accessible. It's pretty obvious that I'm not just arguing for gold because gold is all I know. That's a fairly insulting interpretation of my arguments and implies you didn't really read my posts before responding to them. Not once have I tried to say that D3 should use gold just because gold is the thing used in the past. Please pay me the respect of not insinuating that I'm a reactionary afraid of change.

I've explained my reasons for feeling the PoE system is fundamentally broken (or at least not as functional as it seems on paper), and there are several reasons for that feeling. The reason PoE felt clunky and forced was not because I'm used to seeing gold dropping from monsters but because the interaction with currency was awkward -- have you seriously tried to sell items in the game? Aside from the obvious deficiencies in not having a hotkey to place items in the sell-grid pane, the whole system is awkward -- they even had to break up orbs and scrolls into scraps to enable smaller currency values. The very fact that selling items was implemented long after the majority of game was released to its beta shows how awkward the system was -- that it took even longer to develop what they did end up developing than it took to entirely revamp their passive skill/attribute system. Aside from the awkward UI issues, which are simpler to fix than systemic issues, there are a lot of awkward aspects for having so many different currency items.

The interaction between NPCs and the multiple currency-item system added a needless complexity that felt rigid where it should have been fluid and too wide-spread to be consistent enough to be a really functional currency. Eventually people will settle on one, maybe two, orb to be the de facto currency of player-to-player trade, and that's great. It's not any different than using Stones of Jordan as currency. But it makes it especially awkward to deal with the NPC vendors in the game, since they will still be using the multiple-item currency system. As such, there'll be a disconnection between the two. Yes, that disconnection was present in D2, but aren't we supposed to learn from the issues of the past? We both agree that the gold-based economy of D2 was entirely broken, but that is not because all gold-based systems are broken (WoW, as just one example among A HUGE number, is perfectly functional). Simply, D2's system was broken. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater isn't the solution.

That being said, if D3 wanted to have a currency based on a consumable item, it has some very interesting possibilities, and some hurtles to overcome. Simply trying to reduce my argument to "oh it's not gold so it must be bad" is indicative that you're really not trying to have a conversation about it.


I was actually trying to diverge from the multiple issues that we got aside to, to a more simplified approach to how I can explain how I see it, (opinions: that I want and like what people are calling "too complicated") and how I think that you see it. The "Simplification approach section of this link

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085

It seemed you had more information to sort out with me, more issues, and I was trying to say that after reading Honor's link, I think that I have a grasp on your position and mine a little better. And there aren't so many differences after that. Based on our mutual understandings of currency, I could see a system fixed and working based on PoE's good parts with Blizzard tweaks. That will never happen of course, and I started this thread to figure out why not.

I saw that you said you didn't appreciate that I grouped you into a reactionary type of person, but interestingly, earlier, you suggested that my views seemed as such. "Speaking of fearing change..." I was demonstrating how yours could be seen in the same light along that line of thinking. Not very fair. But don't use that line of thought, rather what I wanted to say was, I assume we're all on the same page and expecting to be moving forward with changes rather than clinging on to old systems. But here's where it came across to me that you like Diablo 3's system as it is (for example you stated that the system that I was encouraging/questioning is unfit for Diablo 3). I thought then that you like everything about Diablo 3 as it is now, therefore, I have only the "Simplification" portion of Honor's link to attribute to your preferred line of thought. I don't find you simple minded, just your preferences for Diablo 3, if indeed it's "just right" as it is and PoE has somehow got it all wrong.

It's interesting that you mentioned throwing the baby out with the bathwater because it's my opinion that what we have now is exactly that. Gone are scrolls and basically unidentified items. To me what is left is pointless. We've covered that. And since you had so many problems with PoEs non currency system, there goes that entire baby too in your eyes. I feel that it could've worked for Diablo 3 had it been fielded and tested months ago. But that doesn't matter at all considering the information in the link we've read. I'm a solid minority. Games can't be too complex and side issues like unidentified items must not be allowed to slow the consumer down.
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