Diablo® III

Is *Anyone* Happy About Runes on Rails?

03/30/2012 10:22 AMPosted by D3BETA
Bash is such a troll, sometimes. He conveniently sidestepped some of the OP's most poignant points. All this talk of 'experimentation' and 'trying out things you normally wouldn't' only applies if you plan to only have 1 char of each class. Seriously, by the time you level your 3rd or 4th Wizard, how much experimentation do you really need to do? You've levelled 3 of them, I think it's safe to assume that you already know how that skill works and how this rune works. Experimentation can be done on the first playthrough with each class; all this system does is to make subsequent playthroughs boring as hell (until you reach Inferno).


Why are you leveling 3 or 4 of them to begin with, when it's obvious you don't really enjoy or want to? As you admitted yourself, you can do as much experimentation on a single wizard as you want. If you're not re-rolling for the fun of re-rolling and leveling from 1-60, why are you bothering to re-roll?

03/30/2012 10:22 AMPosted by D3BETA
And this is just great. This sentence is the most accurate description of the item-hunt game: a gradual power increase dictated by drop chance. Yet when it is applied to rune ranks, it somehow doesn't count as 'customization'. I guess gear doesn't count as customization as well, since it's just "a gradual power increase dictated by drop chance".


Runes are not items, and should not be thought of as such. They are something intrinsic to your character. Your statement isn't even logically sound; one thing doesn't have anything to do with another. They weren't customization as items. The customization came from choosing how you wanted to vary your skills.

03/30/2012 10:22 AMPosted by D3BETA
Yes, in the first couple of playthroughs, maybe. But after a year of two, I don't want to be forced to use things I already know; I just want to play as the character I want.


Then stick to the skills you want if you obtain them as you level. Otherwise, wait until 60. End of discussion.

03/30/2012 10:22 AMPosted by D3BETA
And a final word: this isn't WoW; it's not a "the fun only starts at max level" type of game. Or at least it shouldn't be. The levelling process was rendered utterly boring by this rune system.


Nah. But thanks for trying.

03/30/2012 10:41 AMPosted by MaiPokehmanz
The more I hear Blizzard's official responses to fan concerns the more I truly believe they are out of touch with what makes games fun...


The more I hear Blizzard's official responses to fan concerns the more I truly believe that they actually know what they're doing, while most fans have absolutely no clue as to what makes a game fun.

We earn nothing by "tricking" you into playing more.....

Except a bunch of money from the RMAH. You could counter with the ol, you don't have to use it, except you do. Anyone playing at end game will have to use the RMAH to stay up in the game. So yes, you do have something to gain by tricking us to play as far into the game as possible.


No. You don't.

And no amount of whining and pretending you do will make your incorrect statement above true.
Edited by D3BETA on 3/30/2012 11:58 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Priest
9145
Posts: 1,260
I think what I got from Bashiok's post, Eido, was that it's not necessarily a bad thing to think outside the box. Or, more specifically, to be forced to look outside the box.

We don't punish teachers (too much) for requiring their students to think of new ways of thinking. In math, logic, english, science... you have to abandon what you're comfortable with. Experimenting with something new and unknown really CAN be fun. Speaking from experience.

YES, I know this is a game. And it's supposed to be fun. And choice is often central to granting that fun, a fun we are paying for. I will agree with Bashiok because I know I would have sooner chosen just one rune from, but knowing the reality now, I might see the fun and usefulness of toying around with options as they come available to me.

This build mania is nice and all, but we can RESPECC. It's not like Diablo 2.
Posts: 80
don't like it because I might pick the Cleave rune I want at the very beginning, and not change that skill at all.

It's lame.


Agreed. Right now, the build that I want to try happens to include a couple 50+ runes. If i was able to unlock that one right away, it is very unlikely I would try the other runes along the way.

Of course, this is a situation unique to each player as some people's dream build could include the first rune for every skill. And to that, I don't know what to say except that it is probably unlikely to occur and that most people will be "forced" to experiment as they work towards that dream build of runes.
Posts: 357
If you like playing games where you just activate god mode from the beginning and poop all over everything till you beat it then you would probably find unlocking the runes you want immediately as "fun".

However, for everyone who maybe enjoys a little roflstompin once in awhile but feels it diminishes the game experience and greatly reduces your pleasure in X amount of time then the "runes on rails" is much better for the longevity of your enjoyment.

Think about it.

Instant gratification or prolonged pleasure.
Posts: 454
03/30/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Sollan
I'll start, the worst thing about the old system is it relied on itemization which relies on luck. you had to put an unattuned rune in a skill to get the color you wanted, you could put a rune in the skill 10 times and still not get the effect you wanted, FRUSTRATING, especially when you started wasting higher level runes not getting the effect you wanted.


First of all, unattuned runes are a pointless idea. Runes dropped as one of the 5 types, unattuned runes only popped up as experiments in the later iterations of the system. Clearly they didn't work. What is the point to them in the first place? Runes drop as a particular type from mobs. Problem solved.

03/30/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Sollan
Also once attuned, that rune was tied to the skill, so each char had to have 120 runes in their stash at higher char levels, think about mouseing over 120 runes each time you wanted to find a particular one. also you might have differing levels of the same rune in your pack increasing even more the amounts of runes you had.


Similar to problem number one, this is an inane problem introduced by another pointless change to the original runestone system. There is no reason to have runestones specific to a given skill. There were 7 ranks of runestones, 5 types of runestones - that's 35 runestones total if you keep them generic. Personally, I don't see the reason for 7 ranks, I think 5 makes more sense. Now we're down to 25 different possible rune drops, and only 5 that matter at any given point in play. Problem solved.

see there was great complexity in the system, it would've been a complete mind f&#k managing all those runes. Most ppl just want to plug in the skills they want then go slaying demons, they don't want an hr of inventory management before they go out to kill stuff.


Any complexity you've discussed is entirely a product of changes to the original system that were poorly concepted. The original runestone system sans attunement and sans skill specificity is very simple and intuitive. There is no 'hour of inventory management'. There is no difficult to understand concepts. Simple, elegant, awesome.

03/30/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Sollan
The new system removes all that unnecessary complexity, yes this system puts you on rails a little bit but it's not that bad really. If you give a kid the food they want (ice cream, lollies etc) they will always choose that, If you give them the food you (as a parent) want them to eat then give them the food they like as a reward after, they get a much better appreciation and understanding of food. Same with skills and runes, I know I will have a much better appreciation and understanding of the differing skills with the current implementation than if i was allowed to choose what ever skill/effect I wanted when ever I wanted it.


The new system addresses one problem in the game that was never a product of the runestone system in the first place - the leveling deadzone from 30 to 60. That's it. A leveling reward. The Diablo franchise is based around loot and loot progression. Blizzard invented an absolutely INGENIOUS way to tie skill development and progression to the loot system, then they abandoned due to what can only be described as superficial issues with simple solutions in order to address the leveling gaps and nerf the rune effects to a single click on a UI.

The new implementation is not what disappoints me - it has it's issues but rune effects are still a really cool system and no matter what they're going to be fun to play around with. What disappoints me is how much potential was ripped from the system in the latest stages of development in order to address an issue that had nothing to do with the rune system in the first place.
Edited by Robes on 3/30/2012 12:22 PM PDT

Ok, so here it is, we do not have any problem with some kind of 'rune point' system where you could maybe earn points and then spend them wherever you want. But, and everyone loves this answer I know, it's not going to make or break an already well-functional system and thus is not worth delaying the game to design and build out one where this is possible. Contrary to popular belief "when it's done" is not the same as "let's work on it for 7 more years until we've accomplished absolutely everything we can dream of". Our commitment to quality and polish very much is the intent of our design mantras, though.

I realize some people are going to really want to be able to get that rune and MAN! it doesn't unlock until level 58! And honestly that's something we sympathize with to a degree, but the current system works very well, the current limitations absolutely have their benefits, it's actually fun to be forced to try other effects, and immediately giving you what you want is usually not a fun game mechanic in the long term.

In my own personal opinion, it's Diablo. If you can't find a workable build without having your own perfect choices being handed to you on a silver platter at the start of the game, good luck in Inferno. Actually, good luck in Nightmare. This game is hard.


I underlined the point of interest here in this post. Where did you get this assumption that players will have everything they want immediately if they are provided with the option to CHOOSE which rune gets unlocked upon reaching a level in which a rune is unlocked?

By level 13 you have perhaps two runes AND on top of that, you don't even have all the abilities you can use yet. So those TWO runes can't even be used to unlock the runes for your build necessarily, seeing as you might not even have the skills you want yet for your build because they unlock at later levels. So it's not possible to have everything immediately, even in a scenario which favors your argument entirely.

So whats the point i'm making? BIND RUNES TO SKILLS OF SAID LEVEL.

This does two things, number one, it allows players to actually use runes as they see fit but allows blizzard to maintain some level of control by forcing (*gasp* we all hate that word) players to unlock a rune FOR ONLY the ability which blizzard had intended.

To make this clear, let me use an example. Let's say you unlock "grasp of the dead" (WD ability) at level 4 and let's say at level 7 you unlock a rune for this ability. Well instead of being forced to choose the only available rune blizzard has offered you at lvl 7, you can now choose from all 7 upfront, BUT IT HAS TO BE FOR GRASP OF THE DEAD. Meaning you can't save points up and go use it later at lvl 30 with this massive pool of rune points and you can't go use it on another ability you have (such as dogs) allowing blizzard to keep some level of control.

Here's point number two: It provides players with more freedom and allows for more interesting and dynamic playstyles early on in game and as players level up BEFORE they reach level 58.

This also alleviates your "immediately" issue of having everything handed to you as the system still guided very much but brings in a bit of flavor to the situation.

A responce to this would be much appreciated. I can't possibly see how this is not the perfect solution and balance between blizzard's desire to guide and restrict players and the players themselves desiring some freedom of choice and option.

Feel free to share your thoughts on this idea, and if what I said was not clear, please let me know so I can try and reword what I said.


Bad idea. You would have everything you need at maximum level 30. Considering you know your build beforehand, leveling past 30 would mean nothing to you. Blizzard's solution ensures that your build (and gameplay) is constantly changing (evolving) until around level 60.
Posts: 454
If you like playing games where you just activate god mode from the beginning and poop all over everything till you beat it then you would probably find unlocking the runes you want immediately as "fun".

However, for everyone who maybe enjoys a little roflstompin once in awhile but feels it diminishes the game experience and greatly reduces your pleasure in X amount of time then the "runes on rails" is much better for the longevity of your enjoyment.

Think about it.

Instant gratification or prolonged pleasure.


I thought about it. And hey, it might even make sense if rune effects were not balanced and higher level unlocks were more powerful than lower level unlocks. But that's not the case, rune effects are supposed to augment your skill, but be more or less balanced between effects. Blizzard did not implement this system because the rune effects unlocked from level 50 - 60 are uber effects that destroy the early content. In fact, they've stated the opposite - that high level effects are generally ones that they believe early level characters wouldn't want anyways.
Posts: 224
Bashiok, please stop defending this stupid system. Your only answer is, it makes the game harder, lol.

It makes the game harder because we don't let you PLAY THE WAY YOU WANT. We force stuff on you and make you adapt, wow welcome to communism.

The game is amazing, if you would just give us some customization, and not force stuff down our throat we would not have to vomit it back up at you.

Diablo is a TREASURE hunting game, we want to freaking LOOT the runes, can you not understand this we don't want stuff given to us for free.

You took the single coolest feature in D3 the runes, and made them bland and arbirtrary.

The old way, you play with a witch doctor and his frogs are red and explode, you are LIKE MAN I WANT TO FIND THAT RUNE.

The new way what level did you get the exploding frogs, oh ok thanks.
The current system is fine.
Bashiok, please stop defending this stupid system. Your only answer is, it makes the game harder, lol.

It makes the game harder because we don't let you PLAY THE WAY YOU WANT. We force stuff on you and make you adapt, wow welcome to communism.

The game is amazing, if you would just give us some customization, and not force stuff down our throat we would not have to vomit it back up at you.

Diablo is a TREASURE hunting game, we want to freaking LOOT the runes, can you not understand this we don't want stuff given to us for free.

You took the single coolest feature in D3 the runes, and made them bland and arbirtrary.

The old way, you play with a witch doctor and his frogs are red and explode, you are LIKE MAN I WANT TO FIND THAT RUNE.

The new way what level did you get the exploding frogs, oh ok thanks.


The only difference is that you don't know when you get the rune. That's actually less costumization, not more. You can't even plan your build from level to level.
Bashiok, please stop defending this stupid system. Your only answer is, it makes the game harder, lol.

It makes the game harder because we don't let you PLAY THE WAY YOU WANT. We force stuff on you and make you adapt, wow welcome to communism.

The game is amazing, if you would just give us some customization, and not force stuff down our throat we would not have to vomit it back up at you.

Diablo is a TREASURE hunting game, we want to freaking LOOT the runes, can you not understand this we don't want stuff given to us for free.

You took the single coolest feature in D3 the runes, and made them bland and arbirtrary.

The old way, you play with a witch doctor and his frogs are red and explode, you are LIKE MAN I WANT TO FIND THAT RUNE.

The new way what level did you get the exploding frogs, oh ok thanks.


What a mess of poor logic and reasoning.
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