Diablo® III

Is *Anyone* Happy About Runes on Rails?

Posts: 1,206
03/30/2012 01:46 PMPosted by Bashiok
This is may be a good a time as any to REVEAL TEH SEKRITS!


OMG OMG OMG!!! TEH SEKRITS!!!

It all sounds awesome. Thank you for making it difficult at the end. I am looking forward to the challenge.

One question though, are my zombie dogs going to get 1 shot'd by everything in Act IV Inferno?
90 Goblin Shaman
7120
Posts: 591
I am actually thrilled about a difficulty progression that is supposed to be a severe challenge. IMHO, I think the really hard stuff should be hell difficulty, and only a select FEW should be able to finish Inferno. Inferno should be for the truly hardcore...and achievement in of itself. Then again, if it was that hard, I'd go more towards "experience" in unlocking the "final" runes...so after several attempts, you are working your way up to those runes, so even if you are not able to complete inferno, you're constantly getting closer to those runes.

In other words, have the highest tier runes have their own "experience" bar and once you ding, you can select one, and the experience resets to 0 again RUNE experience, not player level).

I love the idea of knowing that after a long time of playing, I still have something to work towards.
Edited by Logante on 3/30/2012 3:05 PM PDT
I found these questions really whine-ish of nature, it's almost like the game needs to be catered to people that don't want to spend time playing it anyway. Some people actually like a game being hard.
Posts: 2,751
03/30/2012 02:59 PMPosted by D3BETA
hes complaining about when a rune unlocks... given the old way, he might not even see that rune drop forever anyways... its an odd thing to complain about when you at least can look forward to reaching your unlock goal level.
I honestly don't understand why they didn't just fix this small problem rather than reinvent the whole system and instead guarantee that you won't get it until some arbitrary point later in the game. Seems like a step backwards to me.
Posts: 80
How can I use different skills that I don't have? If the skill doesn't become available until level 50 then it's off limits to me during my playthrough since it won't be available for 2/3 of it.


Yes, I understand this. But I can't help but think that is an extreme example. The only part of the game that will play out like you fear is the first 10-20 levels. So, probably most of normal. Once our characters get to 20 or 30, we're going to have waay more than 6 skills with multiple runes each. If you really want to play differently from this point on, it shouldn't be difficult to have a totally different build from the first time you went through the game.

03/30/2012 03:02 PMPosted by Steveman
I honestly don't understand why they didn't just fix this small problem rather than reinvent the whole system and instead guarantee that you won't get it until some arbitrary point later in the game. Seems like a step backwards to me.


I guess my question here is "How do you know its a small problem?". Did you playtest all the iterations of the system and determine that yours is the best one? Blizzard has been testing many many variations of the Rune system. I think we have to take it with a little bit of faith that they did themselves good by changing the old way.
Edited by CarloRossi on 3/30/2012 3:07 PM PDT
well i love this change ! i really really hope it all will be true. act 3/4 exclusive to some sort of dedicated players. BUT I HAVE ONE CONERN !!!!! I think big concern. The economy is already destroyed with this change. Completely :/ Probably some group of players gonna drive whole market making millions ...
let me explain why. since max lvl you get on hell and it is lvl 60 then all the time any player will search for lvl 60 gear by any stat/dps they gonna get the best items from act 3 and 4 at top. that completly cuts the other hard working players who wont make it that fast. so the problem is - we need a lvl difference between those acts - like 60 - 61 or making some other string for search (like item lvl like in wow) to differes the gear !!!!
Edited by D3BETA on 3/30/2012 3:14 PM PDT
Posts: 330
This is may be a good a time as any to REVEAL TEH SEKRITS! that Inferno monster levels aren't linear any longer. They get progressively more difficult. This was really a reaction to Inferno playtesting. Our original intent was to have a flat difficulty level where you could go wherever you want, farm for items, and it'd be no more or less difficult than any other area in Inferno. This caused a few inherent issues for us, though:

  • It just felt wrong. It didn't feel right to be progressing through the game and have it stay pretty much the same difficulty the whole time. It felt like a letdown to get to the final boss of the game and it be no more difficult than the first.
  • There’s a wide variety of players out there and we wanted to make sure everybody had something to sink their teeth into. We expect that anybody with enough time and dedication will reach level 60. But the jump in difficulty to Inferno needed to be different amounts for different people. For the crazy people they need a HUGE ramp in difficulty, for a more “casual but still hardcore” audience you want an obvious but milder increase in difficulty. So for the crazy people who play non-stop they’ll hit Act I and get a challenge, but 1 month later they’ll still have something to work on (Acts II, III and IV). For the “hardcore-casual” they will reach level 60 later and not get brick walled when they reach Inferno. They can experience some “small victories” working on Act I with the dream of maybe someday reaching the later acts.
  • Longevity. We know people really want goals to work towards and challenges to overcome. We made Act III and Act IV really, really brutally hard, for the most elite players only. It felt wrong to make ALL of Inferno that brutally hard.


Now, you may be saying “I thought you wanted us to be able to farm anywhere we wanted. Now we only have half as much area in the game to farm in? What gives?” Our goal is to make the loot mathematically better in the later acts without making the earlier gear completely obsolete. We feel Diablo II actually did a very good job with this and we expect Diablo III to perform similarly.

Specifically, people in D2 did Diablo runs, Mephisto runs, Pindleskin runs, Pit runs, Baal runs, etc. because the loot in Diablo is extremely random. Even though the theoretical best items might come from the later Acts, well-rolled items from earlier acts will still be better. Internally we find sometimes after an intense session of brutally hard Inferno it can be really fun to cruise through Hell Act III or IV and it’s not too uncommon surprise when an upgrade drops. We expect this to carry through to Inferno difficulty where somebody who can theoretically farm Act IV will likely still enjoy romping through Act I simply because the drop potential is still there. It’s all because of the highly random items having lots of overlap in their power distribution curves.


You sir just made me giddy with joy from this statement! AWESOME!
Posts: 2,313


[quote]
If you need a reason (use different skills) to roll a new character, you really did not want to make a new character in the first place

Um, wut? Why would anyone make a new character without a reason? Is there supposed to be a point behind this?


I just mean that people say replayability will decrease because there is no forced reason to make a new character.

In reality, the replayability based on creating new characters is exactly the same except you are not forced to do so for an end game result.

If you need to be forced to do something, don't count it as a negative when you are no longer forced to.
Edited by Glassfist on 3/30/2012 3:15 PM PDT
I honestly don't understand why they didn't just fix this small problem rather than reinvent the whole system and instead guarantee that you won't get it until some arbitrary point later in the game. Seems like a step backwards to me.


I guess maybe because not "everyone" or the vast majority see it as a problem?

Although I do understand what you mean. In d2 I had 3 sorc that I played because of the same reasons you stated; ice, fire, lighting. I am the same as you in that regard in that I do like to create new chars and try new things. What d2 really came down to though was you would only realistically use what, 1 or 2 spells? Ice orb anyone? Once I unlocked that I never used anything else. Although the first 1-30 lvl's may have been played differently, the end was kinda the same wasnt it? Spam 1 or 2 spells in the different build?

The new system seems much more customizable in reality. EVERY spell/skill (once unlocked) can be used due to the fact that damage with a lvl 1 spell increases just like a lvl 30 spell. Everything is viable and you wont just spam one spell. More skill seems to be involved.
Edited by D3BETA on 3/30/2012 3:16 PM PDT
100 Blood Elf Priest
7680
Posts: 502
I see the point.

He misses that he can't have options on how to level a character. He have only one linear way to unlock stuff (although he can change the way he plays, he has only one way to unlock them, that is reaching 60 as fast as he can).

There's no "ice wizzard" or "arcane wizard" while leveling, or even later, cause the wizard has no commitment with her spells, she can easily turn from ice to arcane or conjuration or fire or a mix or something completelly different anytime she wants to.

I agree. Although it opens the horizon for the character to be whatever they want, there's no "Ice Wizard" or at least not a "permanent Ice Wizard" that commited to learn Ice Spells and sacrificed her Fire Spells to be good with Ice magic.

All Wizzards at 60 will know all the spells available to the class, so she can change her mind about what kind of stuff she uses anytime. The same to all other classes.
Edited by Caramelo on 3/30/2012 3:18 PM PDT
Also another thought as to why you may create another char could be, more gold, artisan lvl, better starting gear from other chars.

If your first playthrough was a barb, you could play it through again after say a few other chars, and have artisan's lvl'd, and have better armor you could use. Could make it more fun to bash through stuff a second time being that much better than your first time through.
Posts: 2,313
I see the point.

He misses that he can't have options on how to level a character. He have only one linear way to unlock stuff (although he can change the way he plays, he has only one way to unlock them, that is reaching 60 as fast as he can).

There's no "ice wizzard" or "arcane wizard" while leveling, or even later, cause the wizard has no commitment with her spells, she can easily turn from ice to arcane or conjuration or fire or a mix or something completelly different anytime she wants to.

I agree. Although it opens the horizon for the character to be whatever they want, there's no "Ice Wizard" or at least not a "permanent Ice Wizard" that commited to learn Ice Spells and sacrificed her Fire Spells to be good with Ice magic.

All Wizzards at 60 will know all the spells available to the class, so she can change her mind about what kind of stuff she uses anytime. The same to all other classes.
I don't agree with this at all. In D2 you only had one way of unlocking skills as well. The tree dictated what skills you could get at what time.

You can create a new character and have different skills every time (in a much greater variety than D2) if you really want to.
100 Human Paladin
12870
Posts: 160
This is may be a good a time as any to REVEAL TEH SEKRITS! that Inferno monster levels aren't linear any longer. They get progressively more difficult. This was really a reaction to Inferno playtesting. Our original intent was to have a flat difficulty level where you could go wherever you want, farm for items, and it'd be no more or less difficult than any other area in Inferno. This caused a few inherent issues for us, though:

  • It just felt wrong. It didn't feel right to be progressing through the game and have it stay pretty much the same difficulty the whole time. It felt like a letdown to get to the final boss of the game and it be no more difficult than the first.
  • There’s a wide variety of players out there and we wanted to make sure everybody had something to sink their teeth into. We expect that anybody with enough time and dedication will reach level 60. But the jump in difficulty to Inferno needed to be different amounts for different people. For the crazy people they need a HUGE ramp in difficulty, for a more “casual but still hardcore” audience you want an obvious but milder increase in difficulty. So for the crazy people who play non-stop they’ll hit Act I and get a challenge, but 1 month later they’ll still have something to work on (Acts II, III and IV). For the “hardcore-casual” they will reach level 60 later and not get brick walled when they reach Inferno. They can experience some “small victories” working on Act I with the dream of maybe someday reaching the later acts.
  • Longevity. We know people really want goals to work towards and challenges to overcome. We made Act III and Act IV really, really brutally hard, for the most elite players only. It felt wrong to make ALL of Inferno that brutally hard.


Now, you may be saying “I thought you wanted us to be able to farm anywhere we wanted. Now we only have half as much area in the game to farm in? What gives?” Our goal is to make the loot mathematically better in the later acts without making the earlier gear completely obsolete. We feel Diablo II actually did a very good job with this and we expect Diablo III to perform similarly.

Specifically, people in D2 did Diablo runs, Mephisto runs, Pindleskin runs, Pit runs, Baal runs, etc. because the loot in Diablo is extremely random. Even though the theoretical best items might come from the later Acts, well-rolled items from earlier acts will still be better. Internally we find sometimes after an intense session of brutally hard Inferno it can be really fun to cruise through Hell Act III or IV and it’s not too uncommon surprise when an upgrade drops. We expect this to carry through to Inferno difficulty where somebody who can theoretically farm Act IV will likely still enjoy romping through Act I simply because the drop potential is still there. It’s all because of the highly random items having lots of overlap in their power distribution curves.


I'm relieved that you guys went to this direction but I hope that act 1 is still hard as if it was the old design philosophy. We still want to get challenge at act 1 at same time gradually gets difficult later in acts.
Posts: 77
03/30/2012 01:46 PMPosted by Bashiok
There’s a wide variety of players out there and we wanted to make sure everybody had something to sink their teeth into.


Those 'somethings' for those players to sink their teeth into are called normal, nightmare, and hell.
100 Blood Elf Priest
7680
Posts: 502
I don't agree with this at all. In D2 you only had one way of unlocking skills as well. The tree dictated what skills you could get at what time.

You can create a new character and have different skills every time (in a much greater variety than D2) if you really want to.


No you didn't get it.

In D2 you had all spells there as well, but if you wanted to be an "Ice Sorceress" you had to commit your skill points into the Ice tree since the very beginning. So tecnichally you had "3 choices", you could go Fire, Ice or Lightning.

To some classes there were even multiple options on the same tree, you could follow a path in that tree in a way you unlocked the spells you wanted from that tree and then move to another tree or another section of that same tree.

The point is that, once you commited to a class (neglecting all others) you still had to let go a great part of that class by chosing what spells you DID NOT pick up. You were a Sorceress, but you could not use your Ice Spells later on cause you chose to be a Fire Sorceress, giving up your ability to cast Ice Spells.

edit: Also, there were at least 3 different level experiences to each class (much more for real). Leveling as a Summoning Necro was totally different than leveling as a Bone Necro, also, if you chose to summon skeleton warriors or skeleton mages or gollems, you had to give up all other options to commit to your choice.
Edited by Caramelo on 3/30/2012 3:38 PM PDT
AWSOME!
Not thrilled about that announcement. That's one of the things that sucks the most about World of Warcraft: once you reach the endgame, there's a very limited amount of content that's really practical to actually play through if you want to advance your character in any way. The game has a hundred or so dungeons and a couple dozen raids, but by the end you just run the same three dungeons and one raid because nothing else has anything that you're interested in anymore. Now Diablo has a much more random loot system than World of Warcraft, so there's definitely weight in the idea that you can easily find upgrades in lower-item-level loot, but it still seems like a wasted opportunity.


The key difference, beside random loot, is that a lot of content is also random. Random events, random boss monsters with random scary modifiers, random map generation. Diablo is built around the goal of having endlessly repeatable content.
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