Diablo® III

Crit Build - No Hatred Generators

1 Undead Warrior
0
Posts: 8
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#cQXTjY!XeY!ZbbZYc

The idea being to focus on crit and fast attack speed with dual handbows to make good use of Night Stalker to keep the discipline (and hatred) flowing. Breathe Deep + Suppression Fire to get a near-endless loop of AOE, while Mortal Enemy + Bat Companion + Natural Regen + Templar should keep rapid fire channeling infinitely on a single targets.

Caltrops and Smoke Screen and the Web-Shot provide the defensive backbone of the build.

It will be interesting to see how Rapid Shot plays with Night Stalker--what the internal cooldown is on Night Stalker, seeing as how rapid shot will be handing out the crits when I am standing on my 10% caltrops.
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Posts: 172
I've been experimenting with zero-hatred gen build myself, and it has some potential. The only thing that you might feel missing from the build is not having Vault/Evasive Fire. I think you'll need this ability in higher difficulties, especially with mobs that can pull you in, stun, or run/teleport next to you. If the hatred regen turns out to be sufficient, you might be able to swap out MfD for vault or evasive (I dont really count evasive fire as a hatred generator because you would ideally only use it to backflip). Also would switch out the Steady aim passive to Perfectionist since Smoke screen and Caltrops will leave you pretty Discipline starved.

Will definitely try this out myself, thanks.
Edited by Xaavii on 4/7/2012 5:24 PM PDT
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Posts: 13
Here's one I have been considering,

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#QlYVkj!cfU!baYZYb
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Posts: 2,929
Hmm, the lack of vault/evasive fire as you mentioned, concerns me.

Yes, smoke screen sort of counts in the "bravely running away" category, but it's so expensive you might not have it ready when you need it the most, plus you're trying to use it as a hatred generator to begin with. Relying on crits to regen discipline might be ok in the long run, but without godly gear in any short timeframe you're going to be hard pressed to come up with the discipline to melt into the shadows again.

Lacking gameplay data, I would have to say you must have caltrops and (vault or evasive fire) in any solo demon hunter build. The other options are just too silly (using chain gang entangling shot or shadow power/smoke).
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1 Undead Warrior
0
Posts: 8
Let's try this:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#cQXTdY!Xef!abbZbc

We'll have to see how Smoke Screen behaves in practice, but if you can launch multishot without "breaking" the smoke, then you could theoretically pump out 4 multishots in the time one smoke screen lasts. If you can hit 4 guys with each MS, and maybe get a lucky crit, you can loop right back into another smokescreen.

Modified build adds the vault, takes the perfectionist to smooth out discipline spending, and also new rune on rapid fire to decrease the upfront cost.

Thank you for the feedback.
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Posts: 38
how does marked for death work with rapid fire? i think rapid fire does multiple small shots on a target, do you get 3 hate for each of them? does anyone know how many shots per second rapid fire does?
Edited by DeadlyPencil on 4/7/2012 9:10 PM PDT
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Posts: 172
Let's try this:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#cQXTdY!Xef!abbZbc

We'll have to see how Smoke Screen behaves in practice, but if you can launch multishot without "breaking" the smoke, then you could theoretically pump out 4 multishots in the time one smoke screen lasts. If you can hit 4 guys with each MS, and maybe get a lucky crit, you can loop right back into another smokescreen.

Modified build adds the vault, takes the perfectionist to smooth out discipline spending, and also new rune on rapid fire to decrease the upfront cost.

Thank you for the feedback.


you can attack while vanished without breaking it. saw a youtube of this a few days ago, let me try and find it.

30 minutes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_hCvGN0avY&feature=relmfu
Edited by Xaavii on 4/7/2012 10:50 PM PDT
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Posts: 161
Interesting build man, I like the idea.
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Posts: 1,591
04/07/2012 09:08 PMPosted by DeadlyPencil
how does marked for death work with rapid fire? i think rapid fire does multiple small shots on a target, do you get 3 hate for each of them? does anyone know how many shots per second rapid fire does?


It shoots at a rate of 6x your APS. It does not proc effects on every hit. Not sure exactly how it's going to work for Marked for Death, but with observable things in the beta such as lifestealing rings it even seems to have a diminished effect. It isn't proccing the lifesteal on every arrow and even when it does, it seems to be proccing for less than it should. This could mean there is an innate penalty in the Rapid Fire spell that reduces its effectiveness with on-hit based spells.

While the idea of a no hatred generator build is interesting, I don't know how useful it will be. With the first build, your only real slow / damage dealer is Rapid Fire. Every time you someone gets close you have to run away to create separation somehow. The slow from the last Rapid Fire doesn't last long so that isn't going to help much. If you lay a caltrops or use Smoke Screen, that costs a lot of your discipline. You're going to be completely addicted to and dependent on discipline in this build and I really don't think you're going to be able to keep it up all the time. It's your only escape AND your only way to really generate hatred, that's not a good thing. Like I mentioned before, you're going to be constantly moving to avoid mobs and restarting your Rapid Fire channel for another 20 hatred start-up cost. This is really going to kill your single target dps. In entirely AoE situations you are probably fine with multishot because it gives discipline back, but single target is going to kill you. In fact, Hungering Arrow runed with Devouring Arrow has a higher damage output than your Rapid Fire - not to mention if you actually put a spell like Impale in the build. So even if you can keep up your hatred, you're going to have sub-optimal damage. It doesn't seem like the risk in going for this hit-or-miss build is worth the reward you get.
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1 Undead Warrior
0
Posts: 8

While the idea of a no hatred generator build is interesting, I don't know how useful it will be. With the first build, your only real slow / damage dealer is Rapid Fire. Every time you someone gets close you have to run away to create separation somehow. The slow from the last Rapid Fire doesn't last long so that isn't going to help much. If you lay a caltrops or use Smoke Screen, that costs a lot of your discipline. You're going to be completely addicted to and dependent on discipline in this build and I really don't think you're going to be able to keep it up all the time. It's your only escape AND your only way to really generate hatred, that's not a good thing. Like I mentioned before, you're going to be constantly moving to avoid mobs and restarting your Rapid Fire channel for another 20 hatred start-up cost. This is really going to kill your single target dps. In entirely AoE situations you are probably fine with multishot because it gives discipline back, but single target is going to kill you. In fact, Hungering Arrow runed with Devouring Arrow has a higher damage output than your Rapid Fire - not to mention if you actually put a spell like Impale in the build. So even if you can keep up your hatred, you're going to have sub-optimal damage. It doesn't seem like the risk in going for this hit-or-miss build is worth the reward you get.


I don't find either build to be any more dependent on discipline than any other -- lots of folks will be caltroping and vaulting around. Smoke Screen, sure, is a bit costly, but is meant to be used in those AOE situations where it can be used in perpetuity. The second build takes just about every discipline-regen and cost reduction that it can get its hands on. With anything, we'll have to see how it plays in practice.

The second build also drops the initial cost of Rapid Fire (to below that of base regen + bat). Assuming your "first second" of rapid fire comes at that price, as opposed to Impales 25, it should be easy to keep it moving. Not to mention that with the removal of Mark of Death in the second build, Rapid Fire will still be just barely negative hatred per second (2 or 3), letting you crank on the juice where Impale might have run dry.

In addition, Rapid Fire plays a key role with Night Stalker. All the business about Rapid Fire having a reduced rate of "on-hit" effects aside, it will still offer a smoother return of discipline than a few imaples that may or may not crit.

Truth be told, I'm not even in Beta, so this is all just back-of-the-envelope building, we'll have to try it out to see what it can do. See you on May 15.
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Posts: 13
From what I have played using caltraps allows a person get to significant amount of distance between a target and oneself. I think in the end it will depend on your prefrence of skills and your ability to manage your resources. Hell I even just stood in the middle of a caltrap did some damage waited till enough of them were in the trap and then just ran away, then finished off the rest of the mob.

The problem I see with vault, evasive fire is I don't know if it will always be faster then someone who manges to max out their movement speed through items. Also vault consumes a significant amount of discipline. While evasive fire I would just find annoying, because of all the backflipping. So I guess the one guareented benefit of vault/evasive fire is you don't have to waste too many random properties on increased movement speed.

Then there is strafe with drifting shadow rune which gives it more damage potential then any of the vault runes, while still having the potential of being the best means of creating distance, with incrases in movement speed. Down side is it consumes alot of hate and reduces you damage output potential.

While the other skills I find just don't find have enough duration in there slow effects to really create the desired amount of distance between me and the targets.

I'm just saying that after playing and using caltraps it has really made me reconsider my original stategy of using valut and rapid fire with web shot to create distance when necessary. Also blizzard has left the + skill effects a complete mystery, which I think will improve the rune effects further. Which would mean reduced cooldowns and resource consumption while improving damage, effect durations, and resource generation. Which I think will be the case as they want to make as many builds viable as possible.
Edited by turtlesneeze on 4/8/2012 1:53 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,591
I don't find either build to be any more dependent on discipline than any other -- lots of folks will be caltroping and vaulting around. Smoke Screen, sure, is a bit costly, but is meant to be used in those AOE situations where it can be used in perpetuity. The second build takes just about every discipline-regen and cost reduction that it can get its hands on. With anything, we'll have to see how it plays in practice.


But people are usually dependent on discipline only as an escape. With this build if you run out of hatred you have to use smoke screen or something else to get it back regardless of whether or not you actually need it as an escape. And then if you have to use an escape a few seconds later, you won't have the discipline there when you need it.

My other issue with the build not having great dps still stands, however. Now that you got rid of the slowing effect of Rapid Fire in the second build, it no longer serves a kiting purpose. Withering Fire makes it more efficient, but it still has worse damage than even Hungering Arrow which is a generator. It would kind of take the whole "no hatred generators" idea straight out of the build, but if your spender isn't even as high of a damage as a generator for single target, it's something to think about.
Edited by LtShaft on 4/8/2012 4:45 PM PDT
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Posts: 172
04/08/2012 04:39 PMPosted by LtShaft
I don't find either build to be any more dependent on discipline than any other -- lots of folks will be caltroping and vaulting around. Smoke Screen, sure, is a bit costly, but is meant to be used in those AOE situations where it can be used in perpetuity. The second build takes just about every discipline-regen and cost reduction that it can get its hands on. With anything, we'll have to see how it plays in practice.


But people are usually dependent on discipline only as an escape. With this build if you run out of hatred you have to use smoke screen or something else to get it back regardless of whether or not you actually need it as an escape. And then if you have to use an escape a few seconds later, you won't have the discipline there when you need it.

My other issue with the build not having great dps still stands, however. Now that you got rid of the slowing effect of Rapid Fire in the second build, it no longer serves a kiting purpose. Withering Fire makes it more efficient, but it still has worse damage than even Hungering Arrow which is a generator. It would kind of take the whole "no hatred generators" idea straight out of the build, but if your spender isn't even as high of a damage as a generator for single target, it's something to think about.


Not everything in Diablo has to be about what is the most Optimal build. This isn't WoW where you MUST pick the most cookie cutter spec that yields the most damage/sec or the most damage/resource spent all the time. Those builds have their place in Diablo, sure; but Diablo is not always a game of the most optimal spec, its a game of what is the most optimal spec based on the playstyle that you choose to have.

Part of the replayability that Diablo games have ARE the spec variations. This is why you would see the odd specs like Melee sorcerers, Pike using amazons, and Singer barbs in D2, and they worked; maybe not 100% optimally, but they certainly had their place and appeal. Its one of the things I love most about this game.
Edited by Xaavii on 4/8/2012 7:16 PM PDT
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