Diablo® III

Monster melee attack range

It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.

Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. :) It's not something we'll be changing.


so basically life is tough get a helmet
I have noticed this too and I get the point why they did this. However, I think they should adjust this a little to correspond more what happens in screen. So you could have a small chance to run away from a monster with rather slow attack like zombies. Because sometimes it gets annoying really when I´m nearly half screen away and still get hit. But fast attack are going to hit you, no matter what. So a small adjust, what you guys think?

I have also noticed that sometimes archers hit me even if the arrows wouldnt have hit me. I think it´s the same mechanic but it´s more annoying than melee monster. When I´m running from here to there just ignoring some archer and it shots me and I can clearly see arrow´s going miss me, and then bam! I got shot. wtf. stupid archer. :D Bash if you have access, go adjust it a bit, please? :D

seriously it´s annoying, if it wasn´t clear. But I can live with that and the game is (propably) awesome. :)
90 Worgen Mage
2235
Disagree.

I believe this mechanic is something that can be judged. Since it is network related, and the beta is really about testing out the network-side of D3, I'm sure if there was a better system fully built for player/monster hits it would be tested in our Beta.


I love how you say that you disagree w/ me then you go on & agree w/ me later in your statment it's rather funny.


My statement continues to disagree. I'm saying that if Blizzard had a different system then it would already be in our Beta this close to release. They wouldn't 'hide' a fully functional system that is network related until release. Especially when the Beta is primarily to test the network aspects of this game.

Nice try though.
Edited by Mercules on 4/11/2012 2:15 PM PDT
So, in later difficulties the goal really isn't to dodge incoming missiles, it's to set up your defenses so you can survive the damage? I had assumed dodging incoming attacks via lots of movement would be high priority.


Sounds like it. They wish to remove skill from the game and instead have survivability based on how many unavoidable hits we can withstand.

We seem to be able to dodge missiles. If I dodged a missile and it still damaged me I'd be on these forums complaining about this bug. Why is that excusable for melee? Barbarians and monks in melee range will still get punched.

This is something I disagree with. My barbarian needs to be adjacent to monsters to hit them with my axe. Why does a monster get the luxury of punching me from 10 yards away as I'm retreating? It almost sounds like lazy game coding...but whatever, you're not willing to budge on this stance.


Missiles = dodge.
Melee = kite.

A range attack can only do damage if it hits. If you dodge the missiles they will never do damage.

A melee can only do damage while in range. If you keep it from range it will never do damage.

If you could dodge melee and keep it at range it would be even more lopsided.

It's not lazy programming. What would be lazy is letting a character like a wizard or DH never be hit by melee, while barbs and monks have to take every hit.

Running with your tail between your legs isn't skill. Using skills at the right time to avoid hits is skill.
Edited by D3BETA on 4/11/2012 2:11 PM PDT
being able to easily dodge melee attacks would break the game. do you really want a game where you can cheese an inferno boss to death by running in and out constantly to avoid his attack? makes for incredibly boring game play if thats what you do all game long instead of using your abilties wisely.
oh cool, unavoidable damage. looks like ranged glass cannon with an escape skill is still the answer for most everything.

seriously, why would anyone roll a monk or barb with these game mechanics?
90 Worgen Mage
2235
04/11/2012 02:20 PMPosted by D3BETA
It's intentional.


No offense, but I cannot imagine how this would be intentional design.

The monk and barbarian have a 20% damage reduction buff due to being in melee range, because presumably they were getting trounced in higher difficulty.

So you have the demon hunter and the wizard, two (arguably) ranged characters who do not have this buff. So they can get hit from half a screen away by a melee attack?


You clearly don't get what Bashiok is saying, or how this system works.

Mobs are not hitting you if you are across the screen from them. However, if you go within melee range of them, then a 'hit' will be sent. No matter how fast you run away, once the 'hit' is acknowledged it will rightfully go through. Even if it appears that it happened while you've moved away from the monster.

This BRINGS SKILL into play for ranged classes. If you don't want to get hit, you better know how to play your class properly and stay out of melee range.

This BRINGS SKILL into play for ranged classes. If you don't want to get hit, you better know how to play your class properly and stay out of melee range.


It just means you have to kite further away, and removes skill from barb/monk who can never kite anything. Unavoidable damage, that seems avoidable, sucks. If a zombie is doing a slow !@# arching swing and I run out of the way, why should I be hit. Bring that up to a giant ogre swinging a huge mace that will take half my health if it hits me, but none if I dodge it during the 1 second swinging animation.

It should be fixed. Make mobs like zombies just have an initial fast attack then a delay between the next one if you want them to hit when first in melee range. Mobs with slow swing speeds in melee should be dodgable.
90 Worgen Mage
2235
04/11/2012 02:25 PMPosted by D3BETA
What you don't realize is that you're getting hit from monsters that are way out of melee range, and Bashiok is saying this is intentional. Watch the video that was posted, and read the original post.


No, you were already hit by a monster when you were in its melee range. The hit detection system fails to display it immediately and thus gives the illusion that you were hit halfway across the screen.

If you constantly stay out of short-range of a monster and NEVER enter into its reach, then you won't get a crazy half-screen long reaching hit.

I watched the video and I fail to see any proof that the player was hit from across the screen when he never entered melee range of the mob. Each hit was from him shortly being within range.
Edited by Mercules on 4/11/2012 2:34 PM PDT
85 Undead Warlock
11095
The system only exists to allow for fully animated attacks to look smoother.

Basically, every melee attack in the game is *instant*, giving us consistent expectations for all melee combat for balance/anti-abuse/gameplay/design reasons. They just wait for the animation to complete before applying the damage to give it a smoother look. This may give you the impression that it is lagged if you're specifically trying to abuse the long animation, but in reality, you were already attacked back when you were next to or running past the monster.
The system only exists to allow for fully animated attacks to look smoother.

Basically, every melee attack in the game is *instant*, giving us consistent expectations for all melee combat for balance/anti-abuse/gameplay/design reasons. They just wait for the animation to complete before applying the damage to give it a smoother look. This may give you the impression that it is lagged if you're specifically trying to abuse the long animation, but in reality, you were already attacked back when you were next to or running past the monster.


This is very sloppy. The animations should be representative of the attack directly and the slow animations should speed up in subsequent difficulties. Not to the degree that all the monsters look like they are on crack, but have appropriate fast animations.
Edited by rhamutap on 4/11/2012 2:41 PM PDT
90 Worgen Mage
2235

This BRINGS SKILL into play for ranged classes. If you don't want to get hit, you better know how to play your class properly and stay out of melee range.


It just means you have to kite further away, and removes skill from barb/monk who can never kite anything. Unavoidable damage, that seems avoidable, sucks. If a zombie is doing a slow !@# arching swing and I run out of the way, why should I be hit. Bring that up to a giant ogre swinging a huge mace that will take half my health if it hits me, but none if I dodge it during the 1 second swinging animation..


Because game design is more about 'what's fun' and less about 'what would really happen'

If I see the option to run in-and-out of a MOB's (not a boss) reach to avoid damage, then chances are most players will do this when faced w/ high difficulty tiers. If most players do this, but this wasn't the intent of the designers, then the game becomes easier than intended for a certain portion of players. So, the designers have 2 options:

1) Re-balance the difficulty of the game to account for players running in-and-out to avoid damage.

OR

2) Adjust the game system to make running in-and-out unnecessary and thereby relieving players from feeling they have to perform this unintentional task.

Now, if it's a Boss, mini-boss or Champion.... such as your large Ogre scenario, then game design can incorporate the manual dodging of attacks and still not feel tedious.

Personally, option #2 seems like a more enjoyable game for me. Apparently the Blizz design team and/or QA team felt the same.
Edited by Mercules on 4/11/2012 2:44 PM PDT


It just means you have to kite further away, and removes skill from barb/monk who can never kite anything. Unavoidable damage, that seems avoidable, sucks. If a zombie is doing a slow !@# arching swing and I run out of the way, why should I be hit. Bring that up to a giant ogre swinging a huge mace that will take half my health if it hits me, but none if I dodge it during the 1 second swinging animation..


Because game design is more about 'what's fun' and less about 'what would really happen'

If I am given the option to run in-and-out of a MOB's (not a boss) reach to avoid damage, then chances are most players will do this. If most players do this, but this wasn't the intent of the designers, then the game becomes easier than intended for a certain portion of players. So, the designers have 2 options:

1) Re-balance the difficulty of the game to account for players running in-and-out to avoid damage

OR

2) Adjust the game system to make running in-and-out unnecessary and thereby relieving players from feeling they have to perform this unintentional task.

Now, if it's a Boss, mini-boss or Champion.... such as your large Ogre scenario, then game design can incorporate the manual dodging of attacks and still not feel tedious to some players.

Personally, option #2 seems like a more enjoyable game for me. Apparently the Blizz design team and/or QA team felt the same.


Or design your monsters around the system you want as opposed to designing your system around your monsters........................................................
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